Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
I agree ... read my previous posts - society should be moulded towards better ideals through education and media so people will choose to control themselves and laws will not need to be imposed.
agreed 100%. education is the key, absolutely no doubt about that.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Psyah, I couldnt understand how you took Surat Al-Kafiroon or its last verse in context of tolerating wrong or accepting others?
This surah makes distinction between kufar and haq instead?
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Tolerance is for people not for the acts of harm ... We don't give compassion to cigarettes - we give it to smokers who are imprisoned by their addictions and/or eclipsed by their own desires to continue taking it.
If we stop a heroine addict from taking his hit - we will kill him ... some Muslims actually believe this is right ... but what is correct here is to take him away from that environment and administer morphine to him gradually reducing it until his dependency wanes and he is strong enough to cope without it.
If an onlooker see us "giving" an addict drugs - he may conclude we are invoking the right to ignore the teachings of the religion under the guise of tolerance ... But this matter should not be judged by our immediate actions ... but by our longer term strategies. Society has a similar type of addiction to all things the desires want that oppose the religion.
The "orientation" should be towards baby steps of improvement towards our ideals - not necessarily a cutting off in an attempt to correct society overnight.
Those who claim to be "tolerant" however and allow the forbidden things and partake in them with no greater strategy for improvement and eventual purification and "weaning off" they are the ones who are doing such things in "a guise" ...
Bella, Psyah has perfectly and clearly explained to me and in this you will find what I meant by "under the guise of tolerance"
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Are you saying people of other faiths, or no faith, are incapable of showing more compassion than a Muslim? Why is it that the world’s greatest philanthropists are all nonbelievers? Or are you saying they aren’t compassionate? Can you describe to me an act of kindness, not a religious ritual but an act, that a non believer, or maybe even a non-Muslim, would not be able to perform?
Also, are you reserving the right to hypocrisy to co-religionists or do you extend the same courtesy to every other faith?
The world is lit up with religious wars! That is the character of religion. You are contra-indicated by reality! Don’t even try to bring up the No true Scotsman argument: No true Scotsman - Wikipedia
I don’t care what you believe…so long as you keep it to yourself.
I have no idea where transgender came into this argument. Are you saying transgender people think Islam, or any religion, are tolerant towards them? Are you saying Muslims in the Muslim world don’t have multiple sexual relations?
My assertion was: Many societies in Europe consider the veil, genital mutilation (circumcision), and polygamy to be wrong as well. Are you ok with Europeans forcing their beliefs on Muslims?
My question is, perhaps stated more clearly: What gives you the exclusive right to dictate what is right and wrong based on your religion?
This is an argument every second rate preacher makes: We don’t hate the sinner, just the sin.
That analogy works great when you’re talking about addiction. What about people’s inherent nature, like homosexuality. The only reason homosexuals are discriminated against is because of religion. Unlike an addiction, you can’t stop, or change someone’s sexual nature.
Fyi…you give heroine addicts methadone, not morphine. Also, some addicts, when you take the drug away from them immediately, will die. Singer Amy Winehouse is an example of death by withdrawal.
Brother Psyah, there is no panacea rigid religion gives you. The world is complex. Your gods are a reflection of the people that created them; ignorant and unmoving.
There are more responsible people that consume alcohol than don’t. By this measure, should we start to ban religion as well?
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Thanks for the correction of methadone … Everything else was perhaps misunderstood by you, but I think you understood it very well … There is no need for me to answer them as I didn’t make any of those points you are attempting to summarise that I made.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Peace kprasad
Actually I think I would like to clear up one misunderstanding in your above post, because I think that one is quite important.
Muslims are not doing what we are supposed to be doing ... To gauge how we have to be we need to look at the characters of prophets Jesus (AS), Muhammad (SAW) and the companions of RasoolAllah (SAW) ... I am not saying that non-Muslims can't be as good as this modern rabble known as Muslims in which I am included ... I am saying that we as Muslims have a duty to try to be better towards others than they are towards us ... If they show us aggression we should not try to match that aggression, if they show us love and compassion we should try to match that and try to exceed it.
It has nothing to do with what non-Muslims or Muslims are doing today ... However if you ever learnt what The great names of Islam did in the past then you would surely think that noble and worth saluting. I hope you would find those things amazing because I do ... I find the attitude of RasoolAllah (SAW) at the time of Taif very remarkable, I find the attitude of the first few caliphs amazing ... Just imagine the president of America sneaking out at night to wash the dishes of an old lady who lived by herself ... Well this is what we need to revere and set up as role models for ourselves. Imagine a situation where a woman is dissing the leader of the land in front of the person who is helping her out, but she does not realise that the person helping her out is that leader ... Imagine people trying to kill you, but instead of showing them hatred or fear you show them consideration and endearment ... These are what we have to set up as role models and these are what we should be following ... If what you see in real life is not that ... Then you are only observing a Muslim populous that is far from its own teaching.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Your argument is a fallacy. I suggest you learn up on this: No true Scotsman - Wikipedia
Fallacies*[Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
If someone shows greater compassion to me than I do to them I would conclude that they must have been reading the Qur'an. I would not settle before I have treated another person with greater respect than they treat me with ... or at least I try. It is not because I see that as superiority of my religion, but because I believe that if I truly consider my religion as truth I should follow it - and it teaches me to deal with others better than they deal with me. You see hypocrisy in me, perhaps there is, but my faith at least binds me for not sending you the same sentiments, or else you could use that as a reason for not listening to me. And if you do - then on the Day of Judgement I would have to answer for that.
If you were in my home, or in my protection I would not be allowed to betray that ... I would be expected to defend you with my life ...
can you explain the bold part? there have been plenty of compassionate people long before even Qur'an was 'revealed'. there is so many humanitarian workers who risk their lives to help the ones who are suffering, how do you know they have all read the Qur'an?? most of them are not even muslims.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Bella, Psyah has perfectly and clearly explained to me and in this you will find what I meant by "under the guise of tolerance"
can you explain what you meant?if you think certain things are haram, you dont have to participate in them, thats pretty much understood. muslims cannot stop anyone from doing these things and they have absolutely no right to do that. from your post, it wasn't clear to me what you meant, or maybe i didn't read it properly. everyone can choose to practice what they want, religious life or a 'sinful' one. you cannot tell someone else to follow same morals as taught in your religion.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Dear non believer,
Put your money where you mouth is.
Give 2.5% of your saving your family saving to poor all your life.
If you can not.
Then for H sakes admit muslims have very evenly distributed compassion system.
AS a matter of fact, find ONE. ONE like ONE act of compassion which is across the board in non-believers.
WHERE THE HELL ON THIS PLANET COMPASSION IS INSTITUTIONALIZED AMONG MASSES.. VOLUNTARILY ??
UNLESS YOU ACHIEVE IT.. STOP LECTURING US...
one mother tressa is not going to carry burden of all non believers.
How could you be so blind??? please open a thread and explain.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Psyah, I couldnt understand how you took Surat Al-Kafiroon or its last verse in context of tolerating wrong or accepting others? This surah makes distinction between kufar and haq instead?
Brother ajazali
It is about letting the kuffar to go about their business in what they worship ... After initial attempts of showing reason fail.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Peace kprasad
The application of this fallacy is not correct on what I am saying … And here is why:
“No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge” … This is asserting that there is a connection between being Scottish and not using sugar … Which is an absurdity … it is also an absolute statement.
now what I am saying is :
“All Muslims ought to use the best of the Muslims as their role models and the dictates of the religion show we should be better people than anyone else in order to be most effective in our invitations to Islam”
I have not made an absolute statement that All Muslims are this or that … Also, my connection is not an absurdity … We choose to be Muslim based on some criteria - a code of conduct. But to be Scottish one is born into that, there is no code of conduct that relegates a person from being Scottish. Do you see how these two are very different?
Secondly in the fallacy that you given the refutation is that certain Scots do put sugar on their porridge therefore the initial statement must be wrong, but the attempt to recover from this refutation is to insert the word “true” I.e. It suggests that to be Scottish one has to be doing certain things rather than merely being born Scottish. Actually this is a figure of speech … It is not really a fallacy … To take it literally is a fallacy. What this means “No true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge” should be translated as “A Scotsman who puts sugar on his porridge is not following Scottish tradition” that is what this phrase means …
so the No true Scotsman fallacy is not a fallacy it is if taken literally … But that the literal word is not the intent when the people say “no true Scotsman”.
coming back to what I said, there is no come back … It is clearly evident that Islam is determined from the lives of the early Muslims. So we ought to look at their lives to see what we should be doing.
And finally if I did say “No true Muslim is unjust” that is absolutely true and not a fallacy … A true Muslim is defined by a Muslim who correctly upholds his value system and abides by it.
so I’m afraid the fallacy you see is not really there, but if only you tried to understand rather than engage in this oneupmanship …
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
can you explain the bold part? there have been plenty of compassionate people long before even Qur'an was 'revealed'. there is so many humanitarian workers who risk their lives to help the ones who are suffering, how do you know they have all read the Qur'an?? most of them are not even muslims.
Peace bella88
Please read what I wrote ...
If someone shows greater compassion to me than I do to them ... I am talking personal experience here ... And you are talking humanitarian workers helping the ones who are suffering. I'm not the ones the humanitarian workers help. If you are a humanitarian worker bella88 then I feel so far in our exchanges I have tried to be more amicable to you than you have been to me. In other words I will not rest until "I" out do you in my conduct towards you bettering your conduct towards me. I don't speak for the suffering ... I speak for me. I hope my point is demonstrable in our historical exchanges on this forum. I don't call you names or say that you are this or that ... I don't try to annoy you or purposely misconstrue what you say ... This is all that my statement above means. For me it is critical to be better than you ... Not just claim to be better. And if I see you competing with me to be better towards ME than I am towards you ... Then I would conclude you have read the Qur'an ... And understood it and accepted that part of it.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Dear non believer,
Put your money where you mouth is. Give 2.5% of your saving your family saving to poor all your life.
I give way more than 2.5% of my income to charities, secular ones. The Bill and Melinda Gates foundation has given away tens of billions, and will give tens of billions more. All non-believers!
Mormons are required to give 10%.
What's your point?
If you can not.
Then for H sakes admit muslims have very evenly distributed compassion system. AS a matter of fact, find ONE. ONE like ONE act of compassion which is across the board in non-believers.
WHERE THE HELL ON THIS PLANET COMPASSION IS INSTITUTIONALIZED AMONG MASSES.. VOLUNTARILY ?? UNLESS YOU ACHIEVE IT.. STOP LECTURING US...
one mother tressa is not going to carry burden of all non believers.
How could you be so blind??? please open a thread and explain.
Mother Teresa was a horrible human being. I think she fits the mold of, and exemplifies, a religious person perfectly. Perhaps you should read up on her.
But, secondly, since we're generalizing here, how about if we uses ISIS or Taliban as examples for every other Muslim? After all they would say they're being pious, and would say they are more Muslim than you are! Would you say they have a distributed compassion system? How about the Saudis; evenly distributed? Would you say they are or are not religious?
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Peace kprasad
The application of this fallacy is not correct on what I am saying ... And here is why:
"No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge" ... This is asserting that there is a connection between being Scottish and not using sugar ... Which is an absurdity ... it is also an absolute statement.
now what I am saying is : "All Muslims ought to use the best of the Muslims as their role models and the dictates of the religion show we should be better people than anyone else in order to be most effective in our invitations to Islam"
I have not made an absolute statement that All Muslims are this or that ... Also, my connection is not an absurdity ... We choose to be Muslim based on some criteria - a code of conduct. But to be Scottish one is born into that, there is no code of conduct that relegates a person from being Scottish. Do you see how these two are very different?
Secondly in the fallacy that you given the refutation is that certain Scots do put sugar on their porridge therefore the initial statement must be wrong, but the attempt to recover from this refutation is to insert the word "true" I.e. It suggests that to be Scottish one has to be doing certain things rather than merely being born Scottish. Actually this is a figure of speech ... It is not really a fallacy ... To take it literally is a fallacy. What this means "No true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge" should be translated as "A Scotsman who puts sugar on his porridge is not following Scottish tradition" that is what this phrase means ...
so the No true Scotsman fallacy is not a fallacy it is if taken literally ... But that the literal word is not the intent when the people say "no true Scotsman".
coming back to what I said, there is no come back ... It is clearly evident that Islam is determined from the lives of the early Muslims. So we ought to look at their lives to see what we should be doing.
And finally if I did say "No true Muslim is unjust" that is absolutely true and not a fallacy ... A true Muslim is defined by a Muslim who correctly upholds his value system and abides by it.
so I'm afraid the fallacy you see is not really there, but if only you tried to understand rather than engage in this oneupmanship ...
Peace kprasad
Actually I think I would like to clear up one misunderstanding in your above post, because I think that one is quite important.
Muslims are not doing what we are supposed to be doing ... .
I'm quoting verbatim. You wrote the above. By whose standards aren't Muslims doing what they're supposed to be doing? Your standards? Taliban won't agree with you. I'm sure ISIS won't either. What do you think about Boko Haram. I suspect they're as well read, if not more, as you are in your religious scriptures.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
I give way more than 2.5% of my income to charities, secular ones. The Bill and Melinda Gates foundation has given away tens of billions, and will give tens of billions more. All non-believers! Mormons are required to give 10%. What's your point?
my point is in my post...
please have intellectual honesty to admit, 1/5th of this world population have compassion as an institute.....VOLUNTARILY
Can you appreciate it ?
I like a short yes or no.
If you cant then I don't really want to discuss any thing.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
I give way more than 2.5% of my income to charities, secular ones. The Bill and Melinda Gates foundation has given away tens of billions, and will give tens of billions more. All non-believers! Mormons are required to give 10%. What's your point?
Mother Teresa was a horrible human being. I think she fits the mold of, and exemplifies, a religious person perfectly. Perhaps you should read up on her.
But, secondly, since we're generalizing here, how about if we uses ISIS or Taliban as examples for every other Muslim? After all they would say they're being pious, and would say they are more Muslim than you are! Would you say they have a distributed compassion system? How about the Saudis; evenly distributed? Would you say they are or are not religious?
Peace kprasad
You can continue to use any excuse to justify not recognising the favour of God upon you ... The acts of people ... But had you an argument against God ... That on that Day of Judgement you could not say that God didn't give you life, that God didn't allow you to be fed as a babe, He gave you your parents to love and cherish you, He gave you this Earth to dwell in and enjoy ... He gave you your means for livelihood ... But in return you can continue to deny Him because of the acts of all us Muslim or all us religious folk ... We will not be there between you and God on that Day.
On that Day you better have a solid reason for your insistence when you will be asked ... "Which of the favours of your Lord did you deny?"
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
my point is in my post... please have intellectual honesty to admit, 1/5th of this world population have compassion as an institute.....VOLUNTARILY Can you appreciate it ?
I like a short yes or no. If you cant then I don't really want to discuss any thing.
I assume you're talking about Catholics. A religious mandate isn't voluntary. You give 'charity' to get some favor of your deity back. That's not voluntary, it's coercion. Do you have the intellectual honesty to admit that?
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Peace bella88
Please read what I wrote ...
If someone shows greater compassion to me than I do to them ... I am taking personal experience here ... And you are talking humanitarian workers helping the ones who are suffering. I'm not the ones the humanitarian workers help. If you are a humanitarian worker bella88 then I feel so far in our exchanges I have tried to be more amicable to you than you have been to me. In other words I will not rest until "I" out do you in my conduct towards you bettering your conduct towards me. I don't speak for the suffering ... I speak for me. I hope my point is demonstrable in our historical exchanges on this forum. I don't call you names or say that you are this or that ... I don't try to annoy you or purposely misconstrue what you say ... This is all that my statement above means. For me it is critical to be better than you ... Not just claim to be better. And if I see you competing with me to be better towards ME than I am towards you ... Then I would conclude you have read the Qur'an ... And understood it and accepted that part of it.
I have been just as amicable to you like you have been towards me, and I don't call you names either. i just dont agree with you and i dont agree with reasons you give, and I hope you dont take that as attacks or insults.
I was just surprised at your statement so i asked you about it. maybe thats what you have seen in your life, but personally, i have seen far better, compassionate people who are atheists or just non-religious. even online or in real life, i have found more religious people attacking and being intolerant than the other way around. again thats my experience, just like yours is something completely different. I dont give credit to religious books for someone being nice as i have seen more nice people who dont believe in religion.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
I assume you're talking about Catholics. A religious mandate isn't voluntary. You give 'charity' to get some favor of your deity back. That's not voluntary, it's coercion. Do you have the intellectual honesty to admit that?
wow.
That is your argument against what I said.
So you don't have any argument ??
I think you better off looking inwards first. When I say you I mean non-believers on GS.
Then come after us.