Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Define excessive amounts of alcohol, Bella...cuz its effects vary from person to person. For some it doesn't require much to experience a buzz.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
We are talking morality here … which of these amounts in your opinion is excessive? What level is required before any old person is a prime candidate to go to bed with?
- 20–79 mg/dL – Impaired coordination and euphoria
- 80–199 mg/dL – Binge drinking: Ataxia, poor judgement, labile mood. The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA) defines the term “binge drinking” as a pattern of drinking that brings a person’s blood alcohol concentration (BAC) to 0.08 g/dL or above.[SUP][2]](Alcohol intoxication - Wikipedia)[/SUP]
- 200–299 mg/dL – Marked ataxia, slurred speech, poor judgement, labile mood, nausea and vomiting
- 300–399 mg/dL – Stage 1 anaesthesia, memory lapse, labile mood
- 400+ mg/dL – Respiratory failure, coma
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Drinking excessive amount is dangerous, no doubt. But drinking in moderation sure isn’t. most people i know drink alcohol and are perfectly fine, including many old people as well. sure high levels of alcohol are dangerous, and so are many prescription and OTC medication as well. People also become addicted to pain meds and even OD on them and die. should they be banned?
There have been so many news articles about young teens making dangerous recreational drugs from over the counter medication, especially using cough medication and other seemingly harmless ones. should those be banned now?
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
The society of the US believes it is okay to lie and slander - when it comes to the news and the government they do this all the time ... yet this is immoral even to their own standards. Banning or having a limiting law - was in my reference to it an indicator for the immorality in it. They have different and inconsistent reasons for controlling different things in different ways, which is why they cannot be grouped together like you are doing - I'm not defending US law makers nor am I going to attempt it ... the control of alcohol is due to its dangers and it leads people to do immoral things even in small measure.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
^Size and gender influences impact of alcohol. Greater impact on smaller-sized individuals and females. Those unused to drinking, may feel effects faster and have trouble dealing with them.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Drinking excessive amount is dangerous, no doubt. But drinking in moderation sure isn't. most people i know drink alcohol and are perfectly fine, including many old people as well. sure high levels of alcohol are dangerous, and so are many prescription and OTC medication as well. People also become addicted to pain meds and even OD on them and die. should they be banned? There have been so many news articles about young teens making dangerous recreational drugs from over the counter medication, especially using cough medication and other seemingly harmless ones. should those be banned now?
I'm not talking about banning ... I'm talking about morality ... and that the fact something is banned is based on some moral value. The fact that something may not be banned is because it may be perceived as nonsensical - such as banning too much water consumption - but is it immoral to drink too much that it harms us? According to my philosophy - yes it is ... What does the US moral standards have to say about that?
My criteria for the immorality in alcohol is from religion, but when dealing with its moral value independently I would not use - its toxicity as a measure - I would use its effects on behaviour as a measure. You will find the lowest amounts of alcohol are required in the blood to get a person to reduce their inhibitions and say everything on their mind and lose regard for others. That is the reality of the moral harm in alcohol - not the personal danger - but the social effects it has on behaviour.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
The society of the US believes it is okay to lie and slander - when it comes to the news and the government they do this all the time ... yet this is immoral even to their own standards. Banning or having a limiting law - was in my reference to it an indicator for the immorality in it. They have different and inconsistent reasons for controlling different things in different ways, which is why they cannot be grouped together like you are doing - I'm not defending US law makers nor am I going to attempt it ... the control of alcohol is due to its dangers and it leads people to do immoral things even in small measure.
immoral or haram? Or maybe for you its the same thing. But for me, its not. I dont view islamically 'haram' things as immoral. you can say drinking is haram ofcourse, but its far from being immoral in my opinion if someone else is not being affected by it. if im drinking a glass of wine at my home, HOW does it affect anyone else and how is that immoral? Haram, yes. immoral, no.
my husbands 87 year old grandmother drinks a glass of wine with her dinner every night. Is she is immoral?
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Drinking excessive amount is dangerous, no doubt. But drinking in moderation sure isn't. most people i know drink alcohol and are perfectly fine, including many old people as well. sure high levels of alcohol are dangerous, and so are many prescription and OTC medication as well. People also become addicted to pain meds and even OD on them and die. should they be banned? There have been so many news articles about young teens making dangerous recreational drugs from over the counter medication, especially using cough medication and other seemingly harmless ones. should those be banned now?
Hmm. Some medications require a prescription. All medications come with instructions with specific dosages that you're to take and not to exceed, with instruction for what to do in case of overdose. If bottle/can of alcohol says "please drink responsibly"....what exactly does this vague warning mean? At least the former's misuse comes with specific limits. Clubs, bars, parties...tend to serve alcohol...not Nyquil. The media (movies, commercials, ads etc) do not glorify overdosing on otc medicines as they do getting drunk. So they are both approached with a different attitude.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
immoral or haram? Or maybe for you its the same thing. But for me, its not. I dont view islamically 'haram' things as immoral. you can say drinking is haram ofcourse, but its far from being immoral in my opinion if someone else is not being affected by it. if im drinking a glass of wine at my home, HOW does it affect anyone else and how is that immoral? Haram, yes. immoral, no. my husbands 87 year old grandmother drinks a glass of wine with her dinner every night. Is she is immoral?
Alcohol makes us do things we would otherwise not do ... if we would otherwise not do them then the question is why in our better senses we choose not to do them? Is it because we don't consider them to be proper? If a person consumes alcohol - anyone - the question is what does it make them do? How does it make them behave?
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
another case of "baHs baraaye baHs" [argument for the sake of argument]...this can not lead us to any resolution...an effort in vein.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Now after this long discussion let's get back to this ...
[quote]
Peace psyah,
[/quote]
[quote]
i think everyone wants to establish a pure perfect society. whether they are christian, muslims or atheists, everyone wants to live in a world free of all evil. but neither religion, nor secular society can provide a perfectly 'pure' society without any problems.
[/quote]
If people want to establish a pure perfect society in all honesty then they will ban alcohol entirely ... because its negative effects on the mindsets of people clearly prevents that ... Look for a society that is honestly trying to establish purity ... the US is not that society at all.
Again Islam is not intended to be a utopia - it is intended to bring about the optimal state of society and it has been proven in history.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Hmm. Some medications require a prescription. All medications come with instructions with specific dosages that you're to take and not to exceed, with instruction for what to do in case of overdose. If bottle/can of alcohol says "please drink responsibly"....what exactly does this vague warning mean? At least the former's misuse comes with specific limits. Clubs, bars, parties...tend to serve alcohol...not Nyquil.
very simple, it means dont drink and drive. even alcohol commercials give that warning. misuse can happen with ANY thing, lets not be so naiive here. in america, so many people overdose on aspirin, tylenol and Rx painkillers. sure it has information on how much to take but does that prevent people from OD? same goes for alcohol, people know how much drinking is too much, but some people are irresponsible, doesn't mean everyone is. if it were really that bad, people wouldn't be people living all the way to their late 80's while drinking regularly. Italians have such high longevity, and almost ALL drink wine every single day. my husband is italian american, and I have seen how healthy they are even in old age, despite of moderate drinking. alcoholics on the other hand, are a different story.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
another case of "baHs baraaye baHs" [argument for the sake of argument]...this can not lead us to any resolution...an effort in vein.
No, it actually leads to an effort in vain.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
another case of "baHs baraaye baHs" [argument for the sake of argument]...this can not lead us to any resolution...an effort in vein.
Yes you are right ...
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
No, it actually leads to an effort in vain.
That post was doing exactly the thing he was protesting about - that was quite jammy.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
very simple, it means dont drink and drive. even alcohol commercials give that warning. misuse can happen with ANY thing, lets not be so naiive here. in america, so many people overdose on aspirin, tylenol and Rx painkillers. sure it has information on how much to take but does that prevent people from OD? same goes for alcohol, people know how much drinking is too much, but some people are irresponsible, doesn't mean everyone is. if it were really that bad, people wouldn't be people living all the way to their late 80's while drinking regularly. Italians have such high longevity, and almost ALL drink wine every single day. my husband is italian american, and I have seen how healthy they are even in old age, despite of moderate drinking. alcoholics on the other hand, are a different story.
I think the marked difference between OD on alcohol and OD on drugs is that the latter is a very conscious thing, whereas the OD in alcohol is not - once the senses get knocked out then nothing stops the mind from indulging and moving into those dangerous limits.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
i think it's shear waste of our valuable time and the energy which is scarce in Ramadhan.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Now after this long discussion let's get back to this ...
If people want to establish a pure perfect society in all honesty then they will ban alcohol entirely ... because its negative effects on the mindsets of people clearly prevents that ... Look for a society that is honestly trying to establish purity ... the US is not that society at all.
Again Islam is not intended to be a utopia - it is intended to bring about the optimal state of society and it has been proven in history.
As much as you want to complain about US, millions of people (including muslims) will try to migrate here. I would say, its still one of the best countries in the world to live, (maybe Canada and some European countries are better). i can never imagine living in a country where religious laws are enforced. Secular countries do very well, even religious people dont mind moving there. being an non-religious person myself, i cannot imagine living under someones religious rules that I dont agree with.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
As much as you want to complain about US, millions of people (including muslims) will try to migrate here. I would say, its still one of the best countries in the world to live, (maybe Canada and some European countries are better). i can never imagine living in a country where religious laws are enforced. Secular countries do very well, even religious people dont mind moving there. being an non-religious person myself, i cannot imagine living under someones religious rules that I dont agree with.
I agree ... read my previous posts - society should be moulded towards better ideals through education and media so people will choose to control themselves and laws will not need to be imposed.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
I think the marked difference between OD on alcohol and OD on drugs is that the latter is a very conscious thing, whereas the OD in alcohol is not - once the senses get knocked out then nothing stops the mind from indulging and moving into those dangerous limits.
same goes for pain killers. many people start out just by simply taking just enough to relieve pain, but they get so used to it, they become completely dependent on them and become serious addicts who cannot even think properly and commit crimes even. tons of these cases happen in US all the time. my husband's 87 year old grandmother has been drinking wine every single day with her dinner for many many years. she never moved to dangerous limits. just because some people choose to be irresponsible, it shouldn't be banned for those who are responsible just think about it , if everyone was simply dying or being killed because of alcohol, would average lifespan in US be 80 years? Italy ranks high on overall life expectancy rate in the world, and wine is EXTREMELY common in their culture. they cannot even finish a dinner without a glass of wine. wouldn't they be dying of illnesses at a much younger age if alcohol was that bad? almost all European countries have high life expectancy rates, and drinking moderately is the norm.
I am NOT denying alcohol can be a serious problem for many people, and many people become alcoholics but certainly not everyone. its no more dangerous than many other drugs out there approved by the FDA if taken in excess or abused.