Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
so basically an apostate or non-muslim living in a muslim country HAS to abide by the islamic laws, but muslims living in secular country are allowed to show intolerance towards those who are eating pork and drinking alcohol? talk about hypocrisy.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
so basically an apostate or non-muslim living in a muslim country HAS to abide by the islamic laws, but muslims living in secular country are allowed to show intolerance towards those who are eating pork and drinking alcohol? talk about hypocrisy.
Peace sister bella88
Come on ... Please compare like for like ... Every person around the world is expected to abide by the state laws ... to call them "Islamic" is a stretch. Secondly, intolerance when it comes to protecting their own personal space is not equivalent to a breach in the law.
And the prohibition of alcohol is not for some financial benefit - it is to protect people from poisoning themselves. The reason why it is legal in secular countries is because despite its harms it makes them a big buck. There was a time when alcohol was illegal in the US.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
so basically an apostate or non-muslim living in a muslim country HAS to abide by the islamic laws, but muslims living in secular country are allowed to show intolerance towards those who are eating pork and drinking alcohol? talk about hypocrisy.
How did you derive conclusion?
Who told you this....
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
what is the point here? should muslims ‘tolerate’ those who sin or ignore them?
It’s one thing to adhere to your religion to avoid sins, but what does the OP or others here mean by ‘under the guise of tolerance’??
Also, it was in response to post 30](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=30) where ‘law of land’ was mentioned.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Peace bella88
There is a responsibility upon Muslims to create pure societies ... but there is another responsibility upon us to avoid discord and unrest ... if much of society are not inclined towards purity then the process of correction needs to take place gradually - that is the tolerance we are to show ... it is compassion at the personal level so we don't end up making people feel oppressed, endangered or uncomfortable, but at the same time mould culture towards our ideals of purity and piety in a manner that makes them breathe easy with it.
That is the problem with why many attempts to re-establish Caliphate have backfired ... there was too much haste being imposed on a people who are not used to the strictness.
The best form of societal control is the one that society itself imposes on itself ... to achieve that we need to educate and use the media to our advantage. Just like the Western media have been doing to their advantage for the past several decades.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
What is your religion?
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
but muslims living in secular country are allowed to show intolerance towards those who are eating pork and drinking alcohol? talk about hypocrisy.
My Bil owns a dollar/general merchandise store that is in a "wet area". He refuses to sell alcohol or lottery tickets, despite repeated requests from his regular customers, as that would be haram ki kamai....is that being intolerant? Is he discriminating against those that do drink and gamble?
No..it's exercising his rights to religious freedom under the First Amendment.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
My Bil owns a dollar/general merchandise store that is in a "wet area". He refuses to sell alcohol or lottery tickets, despite repeated requests from his regular customers, as that would be haram ki kamai....is that being intolerant? Is he discriminating against those that do drink and gamble?
No..it's exercising his rights to religious freedom under the First Amendment.
not at all, he has every right to sell what he wants. my uncle doesn't serve alcohol in his restaurants and thats perfectly fine. discrimination would be if he refused to serve a customer because the customer was a non-muslim or a different race or anything like that. what made you think my post meant im against anyone practicing their religion?
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
not at all, he has every right to sell what he wants. my uncle doesn't serve alcohol in his restaurants and thats perfectly fine. what made you think my post meant im against anyone practicing their religion?
Maybe I misunderstood, but it seemed to me like you were saying that it's hypocritical and intolerant for a Muslim to not want to have a hand in someone else drinking or eating pork etc...
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
so basically an apostate or non-muslim living in a muslim country HAS to abide by the islamic laws, but muslims living in secular country are allowed to show intolerance towards those who are eating pork and drinking alcohol? talk about hypocrisy.
Maybe I misunderstood, but it seemed to me like you were saying that it's hypocritical and intolerant for a Muslim to not want to have a hand in someone else drinking or eating pork etc...
That is how I understood it too...
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
seems like my post was open to many interpretation.. psyah’s reply was completely different and yours is something else.
Anyway, Im trying to understand what the OP really means by 'under the guise of tolerance".
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Is your uncle extremely intolerant and wrong because he doesn’t sell pork and alcohol?
The answer of your previous question is in the answer of above question… 
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
I have not contributed to the discussion so far. Am out of my depth here. Did you by any chance mean khatti’s reply?
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
I think we're all confused here lol....
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
what does the OP mean by under the guise of tolerance? not sure why everyone automatically assumed its about someone not selling alcohol. not buying/selling alcohol is not intolerant, but telling someone else not to consume is.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Peace bella88
There is a responsibility upon Muslims to create pure societies ... but there is another responsibility upon us to avoid discord and unrest ... if much of society are not inclined towards purity then the process of correction needs to take place gradually - that is the tolerance we are to show ... it is compassion at the personal level so we don't end up making people feel oppressed, endangered or uncomfortable, but at the same time mould culture towards our ideals of purity and piety in a manner that makes them breathe easy with it.
That is the problem with why many attempts to re-establish Caliphate have backfired ... there was too much haste being imposed on a people who are not used to the strictness.
The best form of societal control is the one that society itself imposes on itself ... to achieve that we need to educate and use the media to our advantage. Just like the Western media have been doing to their advantage for the past several decades.
Peace psyah,
i think everyone wants to establish a pure perfect society. whether they are christian, muslims or atheists, everyone wants to live in a world free of all evil. but neither religion, nor secular society can provide a perfectly 'pure' society without any problems.
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Tolerance is for people not for the acts of harm ... We don't give compassion to cigarettes - we give it to smokers who are imprisoned by their addictions and/or eclipsed by their own desires to continue taking it.
If we stop a heroine addict from taking his hit - we will kill him ... some Muslims actually believe this is right ... but what is correct here is to take him away from that environment and administer morphine to him gradually reducing it until his dependency wanes and he is strong enough to cope without it.
If an onlooker see us "giving" an addict drugs - he may conclude we are invoking the right to ignore the teachings of the religion under the guise of tolerance ... But this matter should not be judged by our immediate actions ... but by our longer term strategies. Society has a similar type of addiction to all things the desires want that oppose the religion.
The "orientation" should be towards baby steps of improvement towards our ideals - not necessarily a cutting off in an attempt to correct society overnight.
Those who claim to be "tolerant" however and allow the forbidden things and partake in them with no greater strategy for improvement and eventual purification and "weaning off" they are the ones who are doing such things in "a guise" ...
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
Peace psyah, i think everyone wants to establish a pure perfect society. whether they are christian, muslims or atheists, everyone wants to live in a world free of all evil. but neither religion, nor secular society can provide a perfectly 'pure' society without any problems.
Peace bella88
Islam does not teach utopia ideals. I hope I did not come off that way ... Our ideal is to build a society where the people desire to "hide" their evil ... Not declare it proudly. It is not an attempt to end evil ... we cannot make such claims ... It is to have a society where people on the whole praise "modesty" and "humility" and "piety" and if they are not these things to desire them and if they do not desire them to feel ashamed of not desiring them and if not to feel ashamed of that then to remain hidden out of respect for the dominant wind of society. All of this to be done without laws being needed to be put in place ...
Does a secular society see "alcohol consumption" as morally neutral or morally wrong? I would hope the latter - and if so, what does it do to achieve the result of reducing alcohol consumption?
Re: Tolerating the wrong ..
so basically an apostate or non-muslim living in a muslim country HAS to abide by the islamic laws, but muslims living in secular country are allowed to show intolerance towards those who are eating pork and drinking alcohol? talk about hypocrisy.
Okay the above is a strange post because it reads as defensive and emotional. Yes, a non-Muslim HAS to abide by the laws of a Muslim country. Why would you even type the word "HAS" when it's a no-brainer that anyone (Muslim or otherwise) must adhere to laws (Islamic or otherwise) of the land. So, non-Muslims cannot sell or buy alcohol in Saudi Arabia. It doesn't matter if the royals do it and pointing out their hypocrisy doesn't change the written laws of the country. They cannot do so. In the US, there's no law prohibiting consumption of pork though there used to be prohibition of alcohol, however it no longer exists. So, have you come across any Muslims that are imposing upon non-Muslims to not drink or to consume only halal? Or who are preventing such consumption? Or oppressing/penalizing for it? Or who are engaging in protest marches to ban pork and alcohol? In all the years I've spent in the US, I haven't come across that...not among the Muslims in my social circle. So, now that hopefully it's understood that the laws cannot be violated, what "intolerance" are you speaking about? Cuz, a Muslim has the right to avoid attending a club...the right to deny services that he has CLEARLY defined within the parameters of his private business....the right not drive a non-Muslim bestie to a club, the right not to attend a gay wedding, the right not sign a petition for a cause that goes against our teachings. None of these are an act of imposition on anyone else, so if we're going to be looked down/ridiculed/mocked/criticized for these acts of avoidances ....I don't think it's us who are suffering from hypocritical intolerance.