to work or not to work

Lifestyle Relationships
21

Re: to work or not to work

Well......how do you define productive?

Most people define it as doing something to contribute positively to society or household. Staying home and raising well behaved and good children is productive. Working to afford a certain quality of life or for the future or just to take the burden off the husband is productive. Volunteering your time and effort to help those in need is productive.

22

to work or not to work

This sounds more and more like a power struggle to me. I can understand she wants to sit on her degree and not use it as her focus is family, but it seems strange that she's just hell bent on not doing what her husband would like her to do, and that's get a job. I don't know what his reasons are on for being so pushy on it to the point that its affecting their relationship, and if he doesn't have a problem with her social life and getting out then I really don't understand what the problem is for her to be forced to work. ... And on the flip side you are saying he loves her for being able to socialize with him and doesn't have a problem with her ways but just wants her to get a job then if he has given her such a good life and what seems to be stable environment and good marriage then why doesn't she just compromise and find some work on the side of raising children. I can get her "philosophy" that she's educated and if she wishes to do so can sit on her degree, atleast she has one type, I get that and good for her for finishing school but this is more about compromising for a marriage. We don't really know the real reasons for her needing to work and her being so against it to the point that if she is capable, just does not want to compromise then this marriage doesn't seem so stable and her life doesn't seem all that great all of a sudden. It's hard to tell because I don't think we have the real story.

23

Re: to work or not to work

Communication is important in any relationship. Its good that someone is asking for advice here, but are the husband and wife talking about this among themselves?

Here we are making guesses about what she's thinking, and what he's thinking (whether is bragging rights, or competition with his brothers' wives, etc.) and her point of view is being given, but is she discussing it with her husband?

She needs to sit with him and tell him in full detail all that she thinks about this issue, as well as all that she does during the day (bake for the kids, artwork, manage household servants), and how her children are better off because of the extra attention she's able to give them because she stays at home.

And another important thing is not to blurt this out during a fight, or to bring up without any warning. Set up a time just to talk, so that both parties are calm and not angry. And its good to understand the other side's perspective too.

To live with taunts and complaints is easier said than done. Most people don't have thick skin to take taunting all the time. And a place that's full of negativity is not a good environment to live in, not just for adults but for children as well. Kids are very perceptive, they're like sponges who soak up all kinds of verbal and non-verbal communication and gauge adults' moods and energy. I don't think its good for her kids to see their mother being degraded/taunted by their father and family. Sooner or later, they will either lose respect for her, or they will become resentful towards their father and his family.

Also, and this is my opinion because I have seen this happen with a few women, its important to be prepared for any situation. To me, its more a question of being prepared rather than being productive. Yes, productivity is good, but like the cousin said, this lady is already quite productive.

However, if God forbid, God forbid (May Allah never let anyone go through something horrible) something happened to the husband, what will this woman do? Will she depend on his family and her family to give charity to her to feed her kids? Its important to be able to stand up on your own feet to take care of yourself and your children if the need arises.

And don't say that at that point she will go to work, because in any field of work, you can't just take a holiday for 10, 20 or 30 years and then go back to work.

I have seen a couple of women in our family who have been in this horrible position. Trust me, you don't want to be forced when you have your back against the wall, it is EXTREMELY difficult, no matter how well-educated or highly qualified you are. And it takes a long time to adjust to working life if you're not used to it for so many years, not to mention that you never reach your full potential. Because in any field of work, experience also counts for a lot, not just education.

Therefore, volunteer work or getting involved with charities isn't going to cut it. She needs to tell herself that she's working for herself and her future security, not to please her husband's family. And in the process she will also gain their respect.

But if she really doesn't want to work at all, no matter the consequences, then she needs to talk to her husband and remind him that she and her mother made it clear to him and his family that she is not a career-minded girl and that she wouldn't work after marriage. He needs to shut up about it, and he needs to tell his family to shut up about it too. Its their own fault if they're unhappy that she's not a working girl, they have no right to complain at this point since they were warned before. If they didn't object to it before marriage, then they need to keep their peace with it now.

24

Re: to work or not to work

THANK YOU. I see so many posts and comments (not just here on GS but everywhere) where they say the degree that they've never even used or used very little will be their safety net in the case of a bad situation. These days the job market is tough--it's hard enough to explain a one year gap between jobs, good luck trying to find anything related to your field when your degree is 5-10 years old and barely ever used.
(though it may be diff in pakistan. Idk).

25

Re: to work or not to work

Yes, people may say this stupidly, but I'd like to see how many women have actually done that. Its not so easy. I know of a lady who was a fully qualified doctor in Pakistan, and stopped working after she got married. Ten years later (3 kids during this time), the husband was tragically killed.

She tried very hard to go back to work, but couldn't manage it. Your training and everything from before won't work so easily when you haven't used your education/degree for so many years.

In the end, this lady couldn't work as a doctor, even though she has the educational degree, training, and qualification for it. She spent years studying to become an ultrasound specialist instead, and is now working in that field.

My guess is that things are probably more difficult in the corporate world, where it takes years even for men to successfully climb up the ladder and have a good position. It doesn't make sense that a woman who hasn't worked for so many years will get a decent job when there are probably better candidates around that have experience and come with newer/better/latest training and education.

26

Re: to work or not to work

:k:

I completely agree.

I find it baffling that a woman who mananged to obtain an MBA in Finance and even held a coporate job for a while would choose to be in a position where she and her children must rely on the kindness of others if the husband’s income dissappears one day (it could be as a result of death or illness/disability). Her parents clearly didn’t prevent her from pursuing higher education/job…and now her husband/in-laws actually want her to work…yet she herself is focused on what SHE wants rather than thinking about what’s the best decision for her family’s future. Whatever reason the husband may have for wanting her to work…I don’t understand why she herself doesn’t want to be in a position for she can provide for her children if that need ever arises. :confused:

27

Re: to work or not to work

She doesn’t like to work… but then, why did she have a job even for a short time before she got married if she hates the idea of working so much?

I don’t know if this is the case, but its possible that she’s adamant about not doing it because of the constant pressure from husband and in-laws. I know I have this personality trait and it comes out in me sometimes. If someone is constantly telling me to do something, I find it highly annoying, and it actually ends of making me dig in my heels and not do it. I prefer being told once and then being left alone so I can do whatever it is on my own terms.
I have seen this personality trait in my younger brother as well. He absolutely HATES it when my parents ask him too many questions about his school work, or check up on him when he’s studying. He finally told them to leave him alone, that he would do everything, but he doesn’t want them to stand at the door of his study room to see what he’s doing, or look over his shoulder from behind when he is writing/reading.

Maybe she’s one of those women who resents the idea of being a doormat of her husband and in-laws, and she’s spitefully not doing it just because they’re going on and on about it. Again, communication is key. If this is the case, that she’s against it just because they’re making it such an issue, then she has to talk to her husband about it.

28

Re: to work or not to work

I wouldn't know what the issues are between the couple but I just want to point out that girls in Pakistan seem to have it easy. I don't want to generalize, so not all, but I know quite a few who've done the same - become a doctor or studied MBA or engineering and sit at home with that degree gathering dust. And why don't they care about that degree gathering dust? Because their parents pay their tuition fees. I doubt any girl living in the west who's earned a Masters would sit at home out of choice and not work because guess what? Her parents didn't pay her tuition - she's got student loans to pay off. Why even bother spending so much money on such good degrees if you don't want to work just because you don't feel like it?

Again, don't mean to generalize. It's an observation. I personally know a few girls, from each of the professions mentioned above, letting their degree gather dust.

29

Re: to work or not to work

all those things are productive but those are not the only ways to be a productive woman.

What about single women that are privileged - who have the luxury to decide exactly how they want to spend life and what they will do with their time, isn't it somewhat of an unfair label to say they aren't productive? What about women who value their happiness and make that a priority, ie they know what things they want more of in life and less of in life and they choose to build their lifestyle around that - If we don't understand them, is it fair to say they aren't productive? And productive in what sense? Growing themselves, people around them or helping world be a better place, pay taxes, etc. if so, does a 9-5 mind-numbing job really make someone that much more productive?

What if a woman whose children are going to school spends her intelligence and uses it in her everyday life for a better quality of life - while interacting with her family/friends, social networking, having intelligent company, and really enjoying each moment. Is that really an unproductive life? What if she also then ends up being the mother that has quality dialogue with her children because a) she's happy and content with her life and b) she's a thinker and curious and challenges her children to do the same. Should this not include her as being productive? Or can she only get that certificate by holding a job.

30

Re: to work or not to work

And I never said that they were the only ways.....which is why I asked, how do you define what's productive?

Volunteering, working, raising kids--these are the 1st three things that come to mind when I hear the word "productive" so I was interested in hearing another perspective on it.

[quote]
What about single women that are privileged - who have the luxury to decide exactly how they want to spend life and what they will do with their time, isn't it somewhat of an unfair label to say they aren't productive? What about women who value their happiness and make that a priority, ie they know what things they want more of in life and less of in life and they choose to build their lifestyle around that - If we don't understand them, is it fair to say they aren't productive? And productive in what sense? Growing themselves, people around them or helping world be a better place, pay taxes, etc. if so, does a 9-5 mind-numbing job really make someone that much more productive?
[/quote]

Do you basically mean--a happy woman makes a happy home for the husband and kids? if so, I can agree with that.

But by going by the rest of that logic.....you can say that the Kim Kardashians and Paris Hiltons of the world are productive as well....

[QUOTE]
Growing themselves, people around them or helping world be a better place, pay taxes, etc. if so, does a 9-5 mind-numbing job really make someone that much more productive?
[/QUOTE]

Compared to someone who's: not going to school, not taking care of any family members or children.......yes, yes it does. That "mind numbing" job is still doing more than not working (and being completely free of responsibilities) is--can be paying for the kind of lifestyle you want, it can pay for someone's future education or down payment for a home, a car, a vacation etc.

[QUOTE]
What if a woman whose children are going to school spends her intelligence and uses it in her everyday life for a better quality of life - while interacting with her family/friends, social networking, having intelligent company, and really enjoying each moment. Is that really an unproductive life? What if she also then ends up being the mother that has quality dialogue with her children because a) she's happy and content with her life and b) she's a thinker and curious and challenges her children to do the same. Should this not include her as being productive?
[/QUOTE]

No I don't think that's an unproductive life. I believe that falls under:

[QUOTE]
Staying home and raising well behaved and good children is productive.
[/QUOTE]

31

Re: to work or not to work

She can start a business of her interest from her home too.. like beautician or hair stylist or things like that!! :)

32

Re: to work or not to work

Hmm, under what conditions can single, unemployed women be classified as productive then?

Also, Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton generate a lot of revenue and sell millions. Their economic contribution alone makes them quite valuable in the entertainment sector. So in what ways are they being unproductive? Perhaps because their contribution isn’t meaningful to some? Does it have to be meaningful to the rest of us to be considered productive or otherwise?

33

Re: to work or not to work

That's what I'm asking you...

Oh let me add hobbies. If you engage in hobbies, like, I dunno, writing, reading, arts and crafts photography cooking, fishing, whatever.

34

Re: to work or not to work

If people didn't work just because "they should" then there would be more jobs available to people who really needed one. I hate this mind set of the whole family working just because it would upgrade their lifestyle while others who really need jobs have a tough time finding one due to all the competition. And how exactly is contributing to a "for profit" company contributing to society, I really don't know.

35

Re: to work or not to work

I'm just slightly shocked at someone as highly educated as your cousin decided not to work (which naturally is up to her) even after a stint with a corp. :-s

Clearly, her place on the MBA was a waste and someone more deserving should have got the spot.

Personally, I think it boils down to the fact she is lazy/idle and is overly comfortable for her minimalistic family role and you as her cousin are propping her position.

36

Re: to work or not to work

How are we saying that women that have the luxury to choose whether they work or not are idle/lazy/waste of space in an MBA program, unproductive??

37

Re: to work or not to work

[quote="asbah"]

Communication is important in any relationship. Its good that someone is asking for advice here, but are the husband and wife talking about this among themselves?

Here we are making guesses about what she's thinking, and what he's thinking (whether is bragging rights, or competition with his brothers' wives, etc.) and her point of view is being given, but is she discussing it with her husband?

Thanks, Yes she did try to get to the reasons why her husband is so pushy for her to work. i asked her how that discussion go usually and she told it goes something like:
Cousin: why should i work
husband; why should you not
cousin: because i don't like to
Husband: all others we know are working
cousin: i ts a matter of personal choice
husband: give me your theory of not working
cousin: we don't need to financially, m not a sort of a person who enjoys it, i like to spend more time with kids, do things with them, for them etc
and then her husband would just pick on spending time with kids thing and would say you think my sisters,bhabhis,other relatives are not spending good time with their kids or are neglecting their kids and only you are the only one who does things for kids? this and some other same kind of comments get started by her husband resulting in tensed fights between them and the actual problem remains where it is.

38

Re: to work or not to work

its encouraging to see so many advices.
based on your advices and what i also think is reasonable for her to do at this moment is to take up some part-time work or look out for some charity work. although in Pakistan we don't have much opportunities for part-time jobs, flexible hours jobs in corporate sector. but can try.

what i feel and have also discussed with her is that the reason her husband wants her to work could be because he might feel embarrassed among his family members and social circle for the fact that his wife doesn't work even when she is capable of.

the fact that he always give the examples of his family women that they work since she must also work makes me think this way.
for a fact we have people in Pakistan in abundance mostly in the upper segment who if learns that the highly qualified good profile wife is not working, they would easily make remarks such as " OH, your wife doesn't work, you keep her locked inside the house" or " she is so qualified why don't you allow her to work, you are so chauvinistic" so you get the idea they automatically assume in such cases that it would be the husband stopping the wife to work and be independent and blah blah without realizing that it could be the wife's choice. and these kinds of remarks and the image can upset husbands and male folk and to escape that embarrassment they could push wives to work.

anyhow, if he is asking her for work because of this reason and if my cousin do a compromise and get some part time work then it would save him from the embarrassment in his family and social circle. then after some time there could be two things that can happen, either my cousin becomes used to it and continues or she would still not like it and would want to leave after some time then may be in that scenario the husband would not create issues again because by then people would have known that he is not someone who stops his wife from being independent and work as they would have seen her working. and when she decides to leave work they could buy the fact that she does so because of her own choice as if the husband was the one stopping her he would not have allowed her to take it up in the first place.

what do you guys think? m i making any sense here?

39

Re: to work or not to work

your observation is correct. Here our parents educate us only for the sole reason that we have a right to education. so the mind set over here generally is to get your daughters educated as much as they like and as much as you as a parent can afford. they never connect getting a degree with getting a job. or degree is never meant to be acquired to make money (for daughters it is ).
when i completed my MBA, having it from the expensive university and my father sends me to all higher end schools from the beginning yet when i decided to take up a job he was like why do you need to work, go get yourself enrolled in a MS program or you can go to UK to your brother and get admission there for higher studies and that your degrees are your weapon and would help you if GOD forbids anything bad happens in life but now when everything is fine let it just be. and i was like i better get my this degree utilized first and started to work.
so yes in Pakistan parents still have these notions that degrees for girls are for the rainy days only.

40

Re: to work or not to work

I liked the comment made by someone here earlier about how those MBA or other seats for these sought-after programs are wasted on candidates who never plan to use their education. An education is not just for showing that you have it, it's not fulfilling its purpose if its not used to do something in the world. Those placements should be given to those who need and truly deserve them.
As for the notion of "rainy days" like I said earlier, when it comes to that, experience matters also and a degree alone won't work.