To Stud Re: The Qadianis

I am afraid that you have got a very poor grasp of some of the fundamental beliefs of Islam. Otherwise you would never say that those who say that the Prophet of Islam sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam is not the Final Messenger are not kaafirs.

Therefore, because debating this issue with you is pointless UNTIL you have grasped some of the principles [usul] of Our Sunni aqeedah
and what constitutes kufr and who can declare someone a kaafir, please as a favour to yourself read the following book which I have given the http for. The whole book is available on-line. If you like, give me your email and I will email you the entire book so you can read it at your leisure.

What I can do now is tell you that ALL THE WORLDS SUNNI MUSLIMS since the founding of the kaafir religion of Qadianism have declared its followers as kaafirs DECADES before Zulfi Ali Bhutto was even born so it is of no consequence whether he did it or not. And, making it a part of Pakistani Law was just acting in accordance with Shariah. It was a good act he did. His reasons for doing so are immaterial. The ruling is correct.

Here are the names of a few famous Muslim scholars who had declared the kaafir qadianis as such as soon as the movement was founded:

  1. Ala Hazrat Imam Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi alayhirahmat in his fatwa ‘Husaam al Haramayn’. This fatwa was endorsed by over 30 of the highest ranking scholars of Makkah and Madina Sharif in the the early 1900s.

  2. Hazrat Pir Mihr Ali Shah Sahib quds sirruhu. This great wali of Allah openly challenged that kaafir Mirza to a debate in Lahore but the kaafir obviously didn’t turn up.

  3. Hazrat Sayyedi Amir al Millat, Muhaddith -e- Alipuri, Pir Sayyid Jama’at Ali Shah Sahib quds sirruhu.

  4. Hazrat Allama Iqbal.

  5. The Grand Mufti of the Haramayn Sharifeen during the rule of the Ottomans circa 1900.

and countless other Islamic scholars decades before Pakistan made it Law.

The http:// you want is http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Belief_and_Islam/

Know that it is a principle in Sunni Islamic law that once someone has unanimously been declared as a kaafir by the consensus of the SUNNI ULAMA it is than required to believe that person(s) to be a kaafir. ANYONE WHO AFTER HEARING OF SUCH A PERSONS KUFR, HAS ANY DOUBTS OF THAT PERSON BEING A KAAFIR AND BURNING IN HELL ETERNALLY, HIMSELF BECOMES A KAAFIR. (ref: Al Shifa of QAdi Ayaad al Maliki, c. 6th century Islamic, Durr al Muhtaar by Ibn Abideen al Hanafi, Fatawa al Haramayn - Ala Hazrat.]

And Mirza Qadiyanis kufr is so obvious and universally accepted that the above rule applies. So be warned if you require the safety of your Deen.

Here is an excerpt from the fatwa book Fatawa al Haramain: Please read Question & Answer 2 especially [in bold].


Ten fatwas from the great Islamic scholar of India, Ahmad Rida Khan Barilawi

59 - Of the great ‘ulama’ in India, Ahmad Rida Khan Barilawi, in his fatwa book Fatawal-Haramain, answers twenty-eight questions. All of these fatwas are in conformity with the knowledge of the Ahl as-Sunnat ‘ulama’. Ten of these fatwas are given below for their auspiciousness:

Question 1: “The British spies in India, who call themselves ‘Nayashira’. They believe that Jabrail ('alaihi 's-salam), angels, genies, the Satan, heavens, the mujiza of Miraj, Hell and Paradise exist and that bodies will get alive again as Muslims believe. Yet they give false meanings to the ayats that deal with these subjects, as some of the people called Batiniyya do. They say that these things are not made of matter but they are conceptual and imaginative. They say that nothing can exist outside customs and physical laws. Thus they deny that Allahu ta’ala can create many things outside the laws of nature. They do not believe in mujizat, and they explain them away according to what they see and learn in nature. They say that it is haram and cruelty to use as slaves the captives taken from among non-Muslims in the jihad performed for spreading Allah’s religion and that it is a thing done by the savage. Though it was defined in all heavenly religions, they claim that Allah has not commanded it. They do not believe any of the tafsir and hadith books. They claim that all their contents have been invented by 'ulama. They say, ‘The Qur’an remains the sole truth in our hands. We interpret the Qur’an according to our new information. We do not believe what the early Muslims understood from it or what has reached us from them.’ Can those who say so be called ‘Muslims’ or ‘Ahl al-Qibla’ even if they say that they are Muslim, utter kalimat ash-shahada and perform salat towards the qibla? Moreover, these spies claim that they themselves are the real Muslims and that what they tell is the pure Islamic religion. Shall we call them ‘Muslim’ or ‘non-Muslim’? Shall we consider their words as wrong and falsified?”

Answer 1: They are not sincere at all. I swear by Allah, they have no connection with Islam. They are enemies of Islam fed by the British. They are the worst of non-Muslims and murtads, because they deny the things that are known to be indispensable in religion. Their saying kalimat ash-shahada and professing that the Kaba is the qibla do not show their being believers or Ahl al-qibla. None of the ‘ulama’ and books of itiqad and fiqh has permitted alteration of the indispensable, apparent and open religious teachings.

**Question 2: “It is understood that they are British spies. What would you say about those who, after understanding their teachings and heresy, call them Muslims, or even regard them as ‘ulama’ of Islam and authorities on religion, or praise them with the terms that have not been used for the superiors of Islam yet, and, by mentioning their names, say, ‘They are the elect of our time. Their books are invaluable for the youth. Their writings prove their quality of perfection. They are the pillars of our religion and the guards of Islam?’ What would you say about those who praise them as such, write, publish and advertise their books as the ‘books of superiors of religion’?”

Answer 2: One who does not believe in one of the things indispensable in Islam becomes a kafir. One who has suspicion of such a person’s not being a kafir and in that he will not be punished in Hell eternally is a kafir, too. That the latter, too, is a kafir is openly written in the books Bazaziyya, Durr al-mukhtar, Qadi Iyad’s Shifa, Imam an-Nawawi’s Rawda and Ibn Hajar al-Makki’s Al-alam. It has been unanimously declared by the ‘ulama’ of Islam that it also makes one kafir to have doubt that it is infidelity (kufr) if somebody does not regard a Christian, a Jew or a dissenter from Islam as a kafir. This unanimity is written in the above-mentioned books. While one become a kafir out of doubting in the other’s being a kafir, it should be pondered well how the one who regards him as a Muslim or, even, praises him with the terms reserved for the ‘ulama’ of Islam will be. From these words of ours, we should understand well the situation of those who consider such people as ‘ulama’ of Islam and praise and spread their speeches and writings filled with kufr. Praise or effort to disseminate or to advertise shows consent and love. Consent to kufr causes kufr. Consent to kufr does not mean to want the kafir to remain in kufr but to love his kufr.**

Question 3: “What does ‘ahl al-bidat’ mean?”

Answer 3: If the cause of an innovator’s dissent from Ahl as-Sunnat is his belief in the superiority of 'Ali over Abu Bakr and 'Umar (radi-Allahu 'anhum), he is of ahl al-bidat as it is written in Hulasa, Hindiyya and many other invaluable books. The one who does not believe in the khilafat (caliphate) of one or both of the latter two caliphs was said to be a kafir by the ‘ulama’ of fiqh and to be a man of bidat by the ‘ulama’ of kalam. For the sake of precaution, the term ‘man of bidat’ should be used for them. One absolutely becomes a kafir if says that Allahu ta’ala is a creature, or that the present Qur’an al-karim is deficient and contains alterations of as-Sahabat al-kiram and of later times, or that 'Ali (radi-Allahu 'anh) or one of the Twelve Imams is superior to prophets. It is written in Hindiyya, Zahiriyya, Al-Hadiqat an-nadiyya and in fiqh books that he will be treated as a murtad. There is detailed information on this subject in the book Makalat al-mufassira an ahkami 'l-bidati ‘l-mukaffira. [Ibn Abidin wrote ‘unlawful betrothal’ in Radd al-muhtar: "If one worships Ali (radi-Allahu anh) or says, ‘Jabrail was ordered to reveal the Qur’an to Ali, but he mistook and revealed it to Muhammad,’ or ‘Abu Bakr was not a sahabi,’ or Hadrat A’isha committed adultery,’ he becomes a kafir. If he says that 'Ali (radi-Allahu anh) superior to the two caliphs, or curses or slanders at a sahabi, he becomes a man of bid’a." In the third volume, he wrote: “If one curses at or damns the two caliphs, he becomes a kafir. Though those people called Durziz, Mulhids and Isma’ilis carry out the five fundamentals of Islam, they become kafirs because of their belief in transmigration of the soul and by regarding wine and intercourse as halal and giving false meanings to ayats.” Ibn Abidin, in his book Uqud ad-duriyya, quoted Shaikh al-Islam Abdullah Effendi’s extensive fatwa about the Shi’ites and reveals those who fell in kufr among them.]

Question 4: “What would say about those who praise the people called ‘Batiniyya’ with the words the ‘stars of knowledge,’ ‘suns of ‘ulama’,’ ‘great alim of our time,’ or ‘guide of the century’ and about those who believe these words?”

Answer 4: If they know that they praise those declared to be murtads, they also become murtads. Even if those praised are not murtads, it is apparent that it is ugly and bad to praise them. The hadith as-Sharif reported from Anas ibn Malik (radi-Allahu 'anh) by Ibn Abi 'd-dunya, Abu Yala and al-Baihaki and from Abu Huraira (radi-Allahu 'anh) by Ibn 'Adi says: “When a sinner (fasiq) is praised, our Rabb’s indignation arouses.” Permitting such praises or disseminating or advertising them shows consent to them. Consent to evils is also evil. [It is heard that some people admire the religious and political movement of, and praise the personality of, Humaini of Iran who is understood to be an enemy to as-Sahaba and to the whole of Ahl as-Sunna. They should carefully read this hadith and fatwa, get lesson from them and wake up from unawareness.]

Question 5: “What would you say about some people’s saying that Allahu ta’ala and His Prophet ('alaihi 's-salam) may lie?”

Answer 5: Lying is a deficiency and ugliness. It has been unanimously declared that there is no ugly thing attributable to Allahu ta’ala or His Rasul ('alaihi 's-salam). This is dealt in detail in my book Subhana 's-subbuh an 'aybi kazbin makbuh, wherein I gave documents from the ‘ulama’ of kalam and tafsir. In many books by Arab and Persian ‘ulama’, it is written that those who say so have dissented from the right path and that they are heretics. The book Ad-durar as-saniyya by Hadrat 'Allama Ahmad ibn Zain ibn Dahlan al-Makki, who was one of my masters in hadith, tells in detail about their heresies and gives, from Hadrat Mawlana Abu 's-su’ud, the Mufti of al-Madinat al-munawwara, passages refuting them. They have been caught by the Satan’s current and become soldiers to the Satan. The soldiers of the Satan will certainly be ruined.

Question 6: “We nowadays see upstart people who are called ‘Ghair al-muqallidin,’ that is non-or la-madhhabite people. They neither follow any of the four madhhabs nor let anybody follow one of them. They call themselves ahl al-hadith. They say that they follow only the Hadith. We see that some ignorant people, who are deprived of religious education and cannot differentiate the truth from the wrong and the straight from the crooked, pass themselves for authorities on religion after learning some Arabic in Egypt, the Hijaz, Iraq or in Damascus and write books on religion. What would you say about them and their books?”

Answer 6: In the subject on ‘Zabayih’ in the marginalia of Durr al-mukhtar, 'Allama Sayyid Ahmad at-Tahtawi, one of the 'ulama of the Hanafi madhhab, writes: “One who departs from the path of the ‘ulama’ of fiqh, from as-siwad al-azam, will have directed himself to Hell. Oh Muslims! Therefore, hold fast to the path of Ahl as-Sunnat wal-Jamaat which is called ‘al-firqat an-najiyya’ (group of Salvation), the unique group reported by our Prophet ('alaihi 's-salam) to be saved from Hell! Because, Allahu ta’ala’s help, protection and taking to bliss are only for those who are on this path. Allahu ta’ala’s Ghadab (Wrath) and adhab (torture) are for those who dissent from this path. Today, this firqat najiyya has gathered in the four madhhabs, namely, Hanafi, Shafi’i, Maliki and Hanbali. One who does not belong to any of these four madhhabs is a man of bidat or a man for Hell [heretic or unbeliever].” Great Imam Sufyan ath-Thawri (radi Allahu 'anh) said, “If one who is not an alim in fiqh tries to adapt his affairs to hadiths, he leads himself to heresy.” Great Imam Ibn al-Hajj al-Makki said the same in his work Al-mad’hal. My fatwas about and articles on the la-madhhabi are available in my book Al-barikat ash-sharika 'ala marikat al-musharika.

Question 7: “Some people say, 'The la-madhhabi belong to Ahl As-Sunnat and are even licensed authorities on religion. They differ from Ahl as-Sunnat only in insignificant teachings, and this difference is beneficial as that between the Hanafi, Shafi’i and Maliki madhhabs, thus they help the religion of Islam. Should not the la-madhhabi, therefore be considered as those in the Hanafi and Shafi’i madhhabs and should not we know them as Islamic brothers and love heartfully and respect them? Isn’t it the way of those intoxicated with love for Allahu ta’ala to do one’s affairs according to hadiths though one is not a mujtahid? Didn’t Abu Dharr al-Ghaffari (radi-Allahu ‘anh), a Sahabi, act upon the hadith, “Do not save your properties to make them kanz, a treasure”?’ What would you say about those who say these about the la-madhhabi?”

Answer 7: These words are not correct at all. The person who says these becomes one among them, even one worse than them. How could a man of bidat be respected? The hadith reported from 'Abdullah ibn Bashir (radi-Allahu 'anh) by at-Tabarani says, “One who respects the man of bidat will have helped in the annihilation of Islam.” Another hadith, reported from Muaz (radi-Allahu ‘anh) in Kabir by at-Tabarani and in Hilya by Abu Nuaym, says, “One who walks to show respect for the man of bidat has helped in destroying Islam.” There are many similar hadiths. It is dalala, heresy, for those not promoted to the status of mujtahid not to follow one of the four madhhabs but to do one’s worship and affairs according to what he understands from hadiths. It is dissention from the believers’ path. Allahu ta’ala declares in the 43rd ayat of the surat an-Nahl, “Ask what you do not know from the people of dhikr!” A hadith reported from Jabir ibn 'Abdullah (radi-Allahu 'anh) by Abu Dawud says, “Ask what you do not know. Medicine for ignorance is inquiry.” These ayat and hadith command those who do not know to learn by asking those who know. As it is concluded from this, those who speak about the la-madhhabi as quoted above or who admit and believe their words, in fact, belong to the la-madhhabi, being partners to them in heresy.

Question 8: “In the last two years, this kind of people have multiplied in India. An organization named ‘Nadwat ul-ulama’ has been founded in claim of service to Islam and to awaken Muslims. Here, every kind of people and those with heretical beliefs have gathered, and la-madhhabi people, including a few belonging to Ahl as-Sunnat, have taken hold of high chairs. What would you say about this?”

Answer 8: This behavior of them is haram and heretical. It is intended to estrange Muslims with little knowledge from their madhhabs. Such Muslims, upon seeing heretical men of religion in cooperation with Ahl as-Sunnat scholars all sitting at the same line of chairs, think of those heretics also as respectful and beneficial. They begin to show respect for them, which is sinful. Islamic religion commands humiliation and severe treatment of the men of bidat and forbids showing respect to them. In 'aqa’id books, for example, in Sharh al-maqasid, the ‘ulama’ of Islam wrote, “It is necessary to treat severely, to humiliate, to refute and to expel the men of bidat.” When Muslims see them at high ranks, their hearts incline to listen to them and, with the Satan’s cheating, begin to love them. In actual fact, those who cooperate with the men of bidat cause the dissention of them from the right path. Gathering of people with different beliefs results in the destruction of the religion. Those who say that they will wake up Muslims, in fact, try to poison them and lead them to disaster.

Question 9: “The aim in the establishment of this organization, Nadwa, has been asserted to be the abolition of the difference between the Sunni and other groups of bidat. ‘They should not refuse one another’s beliefs, but live brotherly. ‘Ulama’ should not speak or write on the beliefs in disagreement among themselves. Or else, they set a bad example to be copied by all Muslims and their disciples. Difference and argument cause perishing and stem from the desires of nafs and self-esteem,’ they say. Are these words right or wrong or excessive?”

Answer 9: When a bidat gets spread, it is fard to refute it and to try to disseminate its harmfulness and wickedness. That this is fard has been unanimously declared by the ‘ulama’ of Islam. Salaf as-Salihin and the ‘ulama of all times up to now have always opposed bidat in this way. One who does not refuse the men of bidat but let them by themselves will have dissented from Muslims’ unanimity, got away from the Islamic jamaat and loved bidats and offenders of bidat. And this means to discredit the Ahl as-Sunnat madhhab and the Muslims of this right path; to forbid the established reason and to command the prohibition; to lead Muslims to Allahu ta’ala’s damnation. Great alim Hadrat Ahmad ibn Hajar al-Makki, the imam of Muslims, said in the preface to his work As-sawa’iq al-muhriqa, "Though I do not have the profound knowledge to comprehend the reality and essence of the writings in this book, I was inclined to write because of the following hadith ash-Sharif reported in Al-Jami’ by Khatib al-Baghdadi: 'When seditions and bidats spread and my Sahaba are slandered, those who know the reality shall declare what they know! May those who do not declare what they know be damned by Allahu ta’ala, by angels and by all people! Allahu ta’ala does not accept any of their ‘ibadat and goodness.’ " The statement, “Telling what one knows causes disunion, is sinful and is self-destruction,” is a slander against Allahu ta’ala and Islamic ‘ulama’, dissention from the Ahl as-Sunnat madhhab and denial or prohibition of an important fard.

Question 10: "They say, ‘The most important aim of Nadwa is to annihilate the differences among Ahl al-qibla; to unite Muslims of different faith of Ahl as-Sunnat and ahl al-bidat; to do away with disagreements; to bring them all into a state of benefaction and sweet taste like milk and sugar; to render the simultaneous beat of hearts and everybody’s getting share in one’s sorrow and loss; to make known that all who say kalimat ash-shahada are brothers even if their beliefs would be different. This is aimed on account of the command in the hadith, “Oh Muslims! Be brothers to one another!” Disagreement on anything or speaking ill of one another is unnecessary. Such unity is a command, a fard, of Allahu ta’ala. The salat, fast and ta’at of only those who unite in this way are acceptable. Those who do not unite in this way will not attain to happiness in this and the next worlds. Moreover, unless Ahl al-qibla do not love one another, they cannot possess iman and enter Paradise. Though men’s every kind of sins may possibly be forgiven, discord and enmity between one another will not be forgiven.’ "

Answer 10: Not all of the above statements are in conformity with Islam. They are harmful to Muslims and lead them to heresy. Many hadiths and the words of Islamic imams support this. Let’s quote some of the hadiths that forbid friendship with men of bidat and command keeping away from them: the hadith reported in the Sahih of Muslim from Abu Huraira (radi-Allahu 'anh) says, “Run away from them! [So] they shall not lead you to heresy, throw you into discord!” The hadith reported from 'Abdullah ibn 'Umar (radi-Allahu 'anh) by Abu Dawud says, “Do not visit them when they get sick!” The hadith reported from Jabir by Ibn Maja (radi-Allahu 'anh) states, “Do not greet them when you encounter them!” The hadith reported by 'Ukaili from Anas ibn Malik (radi-Allahu 'anh) says, “Do not keep company with them! Do not eat or drink with them! Do not intermarry with them!” [This hadith forbids friendship, eating and marrying with ahl al-bid’a. It is written in Hindiyya and Bahr ar-raiq, “Zindiqs, Batinis, Ibahis and all the groups with beliefs that causes kufr are mushriks (polytheists) like idolaters and worshippers of stars. Marriage with such mushriks or intercourse with their females as jariyas is haram.” The above writings conclude that, if the belief of those who do not belong to one of the four madhabs, that is those who are not of Ahl as-Sunna, causes kufr, they become mushriks. Marriage with them and eating the carcass they have slaughtered are haram. Of them, those whose belief does not cause kufr are ahl al-bid’a, and marriage with them is not haram; though the nikah would be sahih, not with them but with ahl as-Sunna should Muslims get married, because living with them and even greeting them are forbidden by hadiths.]

The hadith ash-Sharif reported by Ibn Hibban says, “Do not perform their funeral prayers! Do not perform salat with them!” The hadiths reported from Ma’adh (radi-Allahu 'anh) by ad-Dailami say, “I am not of them. And they are not of me. Jihad against them is like jihad against disbelievers.” The hadith ash-Sharif which was reported through the ancestral succession of Imam 'Ali (radi-Allahu 'anh), Husain, Zain al-'Abidin 'Ali, Muhammad Bakir and Imam Jafar as-Sadiq and which was said to Abu Umama states: “Do not have relation with those in the groups of Qadari, Murjii and Khariji! They will spoil your religion. They betray as did the Jews and Christians.” The hadith reported from Anas ibn Malik (radi-Allahu 'anh) by Ibn Asakir states, “When you meet the man of bidat, treat him harshly! Allahu ta’ala is hostile to all men of bidat. None of them will be able to pass the Sirat bridge; they will fall in Hell fire.” The hadith reported from Hadrat 'Umar (radi-Allahu 'anh) by Abu Dawud and Hakim says, “Do not be in company with people of the Qadariyya group! Do not consult them your affairs.” The hadith reported from 'Abdullah ibn Masud (radi-Allahu 'anh) by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Abu Dawud, at-Tirmidhi and Ibn Maja and from Abu Musa 'l-Ashari (rahmat-Allahu 'alaihim) by at-Tabarani says, “The Sons of Israil committed sin. Their scholars advised them; they did not listen. Their scholars later talked with them. They ate and drank together. Allahu ta’ala introduced enmity among them; He condemned them through the mouths of Dawud ('alaihi 's-salam) and 'Isa ('alaihi 's-salam).”

At-Tirmidhi, Abu Dawud and Ibn Maja reported from Nafi’ that a man conveyed someone’s salam to 'Abdullah ibn 'Umar (radi-Allahu 'anhuma), who said, 'I have heard that he has become a man of bidat. If he is so, do not take my salam to him." Hasan al-Basri and Muhammad ibn Sirin said, “Do not come together with men of bidat.” Ayyub as-Sahtiyani said, "I and Talaq ibn Habib were sitting together. Said ibn Jubair, passing by, said to me, ‘Do not sit with him! He is a man of bidat.’ " As Asma ibn Ubaid told, two men of bidat came to ‘Ali Sirin and said that they wanted to ask him about a hadith; “No, don’t ask,” he said. When they said that they will ask him about an ayat, he said, “No! Get out of here or I will go!” The two men left. Those who were there said, “What if you spoke on an ayat from al-Qur’an al-karim?” He replied, “I feared that they would read the ayat after altering it and that this alteration might make place in my heart.” Salam ibn Abi Muti’ told that, when a man of bidat said to Ayyub that he would ask him a word, he said, “I wouldn’t listen even a half word from you.” Someone asked something to Said ibn Jubair, who gave no answer; when the reason was asked, he said, “He is a man of bidat, so shouldn’t be talked with.” Abu Jafar Muhammad Bakir said, “Do not stay near those who dispute. They give meanings to ayats as they wish.” In the explanation of Mishkat, Imam Ahmad ibn Hajar al-Makki comments on 'Abdullah ibn 'Umar’s (radi-Allahu 'anhuma) saying, “Do not say my salam to…” and adds, “Because, we are ordered to keep away from men of bidat.” In the explanation of the hadith, “Do not be in company with people of the Qadariyya group,” in the book Mirkat, it is said, “Because, keeping company of enemies leads one to ruin and disaster.” It is written in the book Shir’at al-Islam that Salaf as-Salihin did not get close to men of bidat since a hadith said, “Do not stay with men of bidat! Their vices are as contagious as scabies.” Another hadith says, “Do not greet people of the Qadariyya group! Do not visit their sick people! Do not attend their funeral! Do not listen to their words! Give them answer sternly! Humiliate them!” Another hadith says, “Allahu ta’ala fills with iman the heart of him who gives stern answer to the man of bidat; He protects him against terrible things. One who disesteems the man of bidat will be saved by Allahu ta’ala against the fears of Resurrection.” It is written in the book Irshad as-saree sharhu sahih al-Bukhari that, unless it is understood that a man of bidat has vowed for repentance, it is necessary to keep away from him.

I, the poor servant [that is, Ahmad Rida Khan], am preparing a booklet on this subject now. With documents from al-Qur’an al-karim and hadiths, I explain the necessity of keeping away from the men of bidat and treating them severely. I additionally give the comments of the ‘ulama’. This work will be the light for the eyes, and the remedy for the hearts.

While the harms of being together with men of bidat are that many, it should be estimated how many more the harms of loving and praising them are. A hadith says, “One is with those whom he loves.” Another hadith quoted by Imam 'Ali (radi-Allahu 'anh) and others, says, “I swear that Allahu ta’ala will resurrect the man with those whom he loves.” The hadith reported by at-Tabarani says, “Allahu ta’ala will resurrect the man among those whom he loves.” The hadith reported from Abu Huraira (radi-Allahu 'anh) by Abu Dawud and at-Tirmidhi says, “Man’s religion is similar to his friend’s religion. Everybody shall examine whom he has friendship with!” Extensive explanation about the foregoing hadiths is given in my book Fih an-Nasrin bi jawabi 'l-as’ilati 'l-ishrin.

The aim of Nadwat al-‘ulama’ is the same as that of the damned Satan. They endeavor for the dissention of Muslims with little knowledge from the right path. They introduce a new religion with their statement, “It is fard to unite Muslims.” Their saying, “Their 'ibadat will not be accepted. They will not attain to blessings and happiness,” is a slander against Allahu ta’ala. Their words, “Dispute with and hostility towards men of bidat are sinful. This sin will not be forgiven. Pardon of it is impossible,” show that they have dissented from the right path of Ahl as-Sunnat wal-Jamaat and that they deny the ayats which say, “Allahu ta’ala forgives all the sins but shirk of whomever He wishes,” and “Allahu ta’ala certainly forgives all sins.” Their saying, “Pardon of this sin is impossible,” results in their denial of these ayats. Also, they ascribe wrong meaning to the hadith, “Allahu ta’ala’s servants, be brothers [of one another]!” This hadith’s meaning, as reported in Umdat al-Kari and other books, is, ‘Do the things that will help you become brothers of one another.’ Accordingly, in order for the men of bidat to become brothers to the Muslims of the right path, they should give up their bidats and accept the Sunnat. Their calling Muslims of Ahl as-Sunnat to become brothers for themselves despite their persisting in committing their bidats is an apparent heresy and an ugly deceit. [The Arabic work Fatawa’l-Haramain, from which the foregoing ten fatwas are translated, has been reproduced in offset in Istanbul. The author, Ahmad Rida Khan Barilawi, passed away in India in 1340 A.H. (1921).]


Asif

[This message has been edited by Asif (edited April 21, 1999).]

*dear Asif, * This is in response to your reply.

Thankyou for posting that very informative message.

You have cited so many fatwas of different Ul’mas about kafirs (specifically for Ahmadis)
It seems that you are not a follower of Rasool Allah(sa), instead you desire to follow the Ul’mas of the present time.

Thats why you haven’t quoted any of HIS fatwas. Sorry to say, If you had ever come across the teaching of Holy Prophet(sa), you haven’t said so..

Well let me cut and paste again a very grievous incident on which Holy Prophet(sa) become very downhearted.
I think this might help you and others that what being a Muslim means..

[quote]

It was during the course of a war, a party of Muslims came upon a non-Muslim who used to lie in wait in lonely places and whenever he found a solitary Muslim he would attack and kill him. On this occasion Usama bin Zaid pursued him and, having overtaken and caught him, drew his sword to kill him. When the man found that no way of escape was left open to him he repeated the first portion of the Muslim confession of faith, viz., "There is no being worthy of worship save Allah," thereby indicating that he had accepted Islam. Usama paid no heed to this and killed him.

When this, among the other incidents of the campaign, was related to the Holy Prophet he sent for Usama and questioned him.

On his confirming the account of the incident, the Prophet said : *"How will it be with you on the Day of judgement when his confession of faith will bear witness in his favour ?" *

Usama replied, *"0 Messenger of Allah! that man was a Murderer of Muslims and his declaring himself to be a Muslim was merely a trick to escape just retribution." *

But the Prophet went on repeating : "Usama, how will it be with you when the man's confession of faith will bear witness against you on the Day of judgement” -meaning that God would hold Usama to account for the man's death, for though he had been guilty of the murder of Muslims, his reciting the confession was an indication that he had repented of his misdeeds.

Usama protested that the man's reciting of confession of faith was due to his fear of death and was not an indication of repentance.

Thereupon the Holy Prophet said: *"Did you peep into his heart to see whether he was telling the truth or not ?" * and went on repeating: *"How will you answer on the Day of Judgement when his confession of faith will be cited in evidence against you ?" *

Usama says : "On hearing the Prophet repeat this so often I wished that I had become a convert to Islam only that moment and had not been guilty of what was charged against me".

(Muslim, Kitib al-~Iman)

[/quote]

Look at the moral of that Elegant Personality(sa), and look at your Today’s Ul’mas.. who do you think is correct???
Rasool allah(sa) on one occasion said that during the later days, the Ulma’s of my ummah will be the worst creature on earth.... do you still want to follow them?? think yourself.

My dear ASIF, look at the Muslim world today, with time they lost their moral/ cultural/ ethical values and have adapted every possible evil they could, and they are still struggling to destroy their generation to come.....
Are you sure that your religious leaders are doing something to safe guard this catastrophe??? I think they don’t have time for that, for now they want to exterminate Ahmadis first, they will think about that later..

The place where I live, every day I see Muslims queue in front of bars and discos and nude clubs etc., and when it come the issue of Ahmadis, they simply say they are heretics.. how pity of you... more recently a group of Muslim rented a place in Boston and named it as QUEER MASJID, thats a meeting place of all Muslim Gays and Lesbians... to add further some Muslims over here especially those who came from Bosnia, during Ramadhan they break their fast with liquor.. aztagfi’ rullahhay rabbi..
what more should I write, there is whole list of irony.. its so sad to see this portrait of Muslims.

Honestly ask yourself, Don’t you think that all this is an Insult to the Holy Prophet(sa) or deen-e-islam??? just think about it..

and you are still waiting for Imam Mehdi?? dont you think its high time now?? **hah so sad .. you will die, your children will die then your children’s children will die and their children will die.. and none will see the Jesus descending from the sky nor an Imam Mehdi to come.. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as) after receiving continuos revelations from the Allah Almighty, declared himself as Imam Mehdi and the Promised Messiah, and its not a self crafted rank.. Quran says in chapter 68? AL-Haqqah (see last verses) that if anyone attributes anything to Allah for which He has not said, then Allah will wipe out his existence.. (thats the summary not actual words) and Mirza Gulam Ahmad(as), openly referred through out his books that God has appointed him as the **Promised Messiah and the Imam Mahdi..
Do you believe in QURAN??? then think why are we flourishing by leaps and bounds. Please don’t deny the signs of Allah, thats for your good sake.

** If you really want to do something, then SAVE ISLAM,... Islam needs you*,
forget about Ahmadis, believe me they wont steel your right to be called as Muslim.
*

And as far as your objection is concerned, that we Ahmadis are some sort of British funded squad or the Israelis Terrorists implanted to eradicate Islam, so let me put the actual words of that Pious Man, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) regarding this query.

[quote]

“yaqeenun samjho kay yay khuda ka lagaya hua pauda (plant) hai – Khuda is ko hergiz zaya nahin keray ga – wo razi nahin hoga jab tuk kay is ko kamal tuk na phaunchaday aur wo is kii aabpashi (watering) keray ga aur is kay gird ahatay (fence) bna’ay ga aur ta’aajub-anjaiz taraqeeyaat day ga – kya tum nay kuch kam zoor lagaya? – pas yay ager insaan ka kaam hota to kabhi ka yay darkht (tree) *kata jata – aur is ka naam-o-nishaan baqi na rahta.” *
*[roohani khazain vol 1, anjaam-e atham p 64] *

[/quote]

May Allah Guide us on the Right Path and may Allah curse on all those who lie.

innal'laha wa in'na elayhay rajayoon

This is my last reply.. I will be back after a month. Will answer Xteme Abdullah deepblue and all of you later.

I appologize for that long reply.

bye for now..

humbly yours,

Zalim

[email protected]

[This message has been transfered from other page (edited April 21, 1999).]

ooooops sorry, not my business..

[This message has been edited by ShermeeliTimTim (edited April 23, 1999).]

Don't be shy sharmeeli.

keh do jo bhee dil main hai :)

[This message has been edited by deepblue (edited April 23, 1999).]

Salam Asif,

I just got to work so I am reading your Message carefuly. Thankyou for the extensive information. I will reply when I have read the posting properly.

Thankyou,

Stud

Dear Brother Asif,

I thank you for taking time out for my benefit. I have read the message carefuly.
There is no doubt that my grasp of Islam is very weak. I am not as knowledgable as you are regarding Islamic Law and Issues.

The qoutes you have mentioned are valid,Impressive and the names famous. I have heard of a few of these people you have mentioned and do realize that they were well respected in their times.

It is not my habit to twist Islam to suit my own Idealism. I must be honest and state that I find my self in complete conflict with the Political Philosophy of the Ulema You have mentioned.

I will not state that these Ulema are wrong under the Light of Islam. Chances are that they are Islamicaly correct. Indeed if they are correct then Atleast from a Sharia Perspective I am wrong.

If the Sunni Law requires that I condemn The Ahmedi's as Kafir I must decline this request.

I Can not suport a Law that passes Legal Judgement on a personal or private belief of a peaceful people.

It is not my intention to belitle the Respectable Ulema nor is it my desire to try and prove them wrong. They are by far more knowledgable than I.

It would be idiotic of me to state that 1400 years of Islamic thought is wrong and I sitting here in my jeans and T-Shirt have found the Perfect Liberal Islamic formula.

I am not your Islamic Apologist who finds new ways to Make Islam fit western thought.
Nor is it my intention to sugar coat my arguments with Hadith. In essence I am not dogmatic in my aproach and feel no remorse in discarding things that cause harm even if they are seen as Islamic.

I can clearly state that I am heavily influenced by Western Liberalism and as a result find Shariah Law and Goverment invalid, inapropriate and dysfunctional for our modern times.

I endorse a secular aproach to goverment as envisioned by Mr.Jinnah the finest Politician Indian Soil has ever seen.

I am willing to contradict and conflict with any relegion or Supreme being for what I believe is right. My intellect is not regulated by fear or Submission. My views are an accumulation of real life experiences and morality.

If this leaves me out of Classic Islam then so Be it.

Stud

Dear Stud,
Thank you very much for your thought-provoking comments! If only more muslims could stand up and speak out against this scourge of Fundamentalist Islam with its OUTDATED & FAULTY intrepretations of Al-Quran. Today, these fanatic muslims in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Algeria, Sudan, Indonesia, etc, are killing secular muslims, Shias and people of other faiths because their intrepretation of Islam JUSTIFIES and even GLORIFIES it. And, the Reward for eliminating/killing the 'So-Called Non-Believers' is ETERNAL PARADISE.
Mr. Asif publication above is a 'copy & paste' job from Sunni school of jurisprudence which, of course, would be in CONFLICT with the other school of jurisprudence. Instead of accepting Diversity and Pluralism, which actually represents strength in a Society; the Fundamentalists try to eliminate diversity and force their doctrines onto others.
Please Note: Asif has EDITED out, in his section, about IMAM KHOMEMI of Shia Ishna-Asahri Islam as being KUFR/SATAN and anti-Islam. Asif, Could I ask - Why did you EDIT that piece out? And, remember folks, this is the same guy who was pleading in his note: TO THE WEBMASTER to block out the Ahmedias from stating their point of views! What a hypocrite!
Furthermore, if any muslims are under the impression that this fanatical brand of Islam can co-exist with the Modern World, the answer is - No! For more info., please read my section on: TALEBAN - IS THIS THE MESSAGE OF ISLAM ?
Look around today and ask yourself - Why are our Muslims today so ignorant & poverty-stricken? The answer is - because they have been 'Brainwashed' into following blindly the preachings of their Mullahs/Maulanas; Today, the Fundamentalist Islam is nothing more than a Cult!

AbdulMalick wrote: "Look around today and ask yourself - Why are our Muslims today so ignorant & poverty-stricken? The answer is - because they have been 'Brainwashed' into following blindly the preachings of their Mullahs/Maulanas; Today, the Fundamentalist Islam is nothing more than a Cult!"

Oh if the answer was just that simple. You need a black and white answer so badly. You have to start to look at things holistically. This statement is offensive. It demonstrates that you have absolutely no understanding of these issues:

1) The Development and Underdevelopment of the Third World
2) Political Situation in the Muslim World
3) Globalization and Economics
4) Colonialism and Decolonization
5) The Effects of War
6) Islam in the Post-Modern World
7) Neo-Imperialism

Pick up a few books and read them carefully before you make such broad statements. You have ignored the political, economic, social and cultural institutions which have shaped the history of the so-called 'Muslim world'. For you the lives of Muslims is solely shaped by their religion - Islam. Muslims don't live in a vacuum, they too are affected by the multi-faceted changes in the environment in which they live - changes which are not restricted to Islam. Islam is a major factor in the lives of Muslims, but it isn't the only factor which has created the conditions of 'under-development' and 'impovershmeent' which plagues many Muslims lives. Afghani's are impovershed because of the 20 years of war which has ravaged their land, not Islam.

If you'd like to discuss the situation in Afghanistan (or any other country you mentioned), I'd be more than willing to oblige. I'm no supporter of the Taliban (or extremists), but I'm no supporter of those who speak with no knowledge either. And I'm no supporter of biased 'orientalists', and you sure sound like one.

Achtung ;)

Stud,

Thank you for your clear and honest reply. Honesty is truth and truth is Haq. It would be so easy of me to look at your admitted Western Liberalism and fit my version of Islam around that. But it would be dishonest. I could quite easily quote several beautiful sounding hadith for your cultured ear to win your support, but it would be dishonest. This is what some on this forum have done, by quoting selectively from hadith without quoting the evidence that over-rides it. I will disect each of the statements so casually bandied around by certain people to win support for their movement in time, but in truth it is all by-the-by.

If there is such a thing as Truth, then it is the Truth, and that will never change either for fashion or expediency. Nothing is constant except the Truth. (I am talking about morals and ideals here not technology which has always evolved with the passage of time, even with the the Prophet(saaw).

Please note: if you require something to fit your honestly admitted Western ideals, then I suggest sticking with your western ideals instead of going to some religion that will bend it's principles to attract new "converts". At least that will be honest.

Regards
Mr "Xtreme"

"If there is such a thing as Truth, then it is the Truth, and that will never change either for fashion or expediency. Nothing is constant except the Truth."

Only A Great Man could say such words.

Stud

"Oh if the answer was just that simple. You need a black and white answer so badly. You have to start to look at things holistically. This statement is offensive. It demonstrates that you have absolutely no understanding of these issues.."

Achtung,

Stupidity is simple. Your So Called "Holistic" Aproach smacks of typical Drawing Room Intellectualism, with no grounds in reality.

Mr Abdul Malick has clearly stated that Fundamentalist Islamic factions are turning in to cults. This is an accurate statement, more suported by fact than argument.

I suspect that you employ your Holistic aproach to blame the West Yet again for the crimes that realy fall with in the parameters of personal responsibility.

Surely it is not Western Influence that force the Sunni to kill the Shia and Vice Versa. It was most certainly not the west that forced Pakistan to Murder East Pakistan.

I do not Suport Holistic aproaches to analysis simply because they are too academic and overlook simple acts of stupidity.

Last thing we need is a "Holistic" aproach telling us that Hitler was not to blame, his actions are simply a product of French Arrogance and Allied Ignorance after the First world war.

If some one is blatantly evil, or a community increasingly stupid there condemnation should be simple not "HOLISTIC".

Stud

I think we should stop telling the Qadianese now that they are non-muslims, it will be just waste of time. Allah SWT declared them kafir, Prophet SAW declared them kafir, ulema of the ummah declared them kafir, so it does not really matter if we also repeat this, they know all this, but will always deny.

Stud
"if this leaves me out of Classic Islam then so Be it"
You will come to know! WAIT

To: Achtung & Abdulla:

Achtung was disturbed by my statement:
"Look around today and ask yourself - Why are our Muslims today so ignorant & poverty-stricken? The answer is - because they have been 'Brainwashed' into following blindly the preachings of their Mullahs/Maulanas; Today, the Fundamentalist Islam is nothing more than a Cult!"
Listen, Fundamentalist Islam is a CULT - brainwashed and everything!!
The answer to the Muslim world's poverty and ignorance is very SIMPLE: muslims have chosen to stay ignorant!
Is there ONE muslim country today which can rival the Western or Eastern countries in Science, Technology, Medicine, Culture, etc ---NONE, ZIP, NADA!
The Fundamentalist muslims, today however, EXCEL in killing people of other faiths; and, violating every aspects of human decency.
ABDULLA: Please stay with your goatherd; we can do without your FAULTY & OUTDATED INTREPRETATION OF ISLAM!
Abdulla - You also seem to be THREATENING in your last statement by saying "Just Wait" ! What are you going to do? Send your Sipah-i-Sabah goons or classify/LEGISLATE all non-Sunnis and secular muslims as kafir!

[This message has been edited by Adbulmalick (edited April 25, 1999).]

Stud,
You wrote,
*I will not state that these Ulema are wrong under the Light of Islam. Chances are that they are Islamicaly correct. Indeed if they are correct then Atleast from a Sharia Perspective I am wrong.

If the Sunni Law requires that I condemn The Ahmedi's as Kafir I must decline this request
**
[Then you know from the above quotes what you are saying and what that makes you in the eyes of Classical Islam.]
At least you're honest in your reply.Before you make suc'h a statement, do you not fear that by going out of Classical Islam, by your own volition, you are ruining your Afterlife? Don't you owe it to yourself to at least read up about Islam; after all, it is going to affect your life and the Next life.

Anyway, it is up to you, mujhe kya hai. You have to go to your own grave, I have to go to mine. I hope, for your sake, that you will make a serious attempt to find out about Traditional Islam--ie the Islam as it has has been understood for 1400 years and not the 'Islam' which is twisted to suit the latest Western ideals and to read your Shahadat [kalimah] again. THe http site I gave you is a good starting point. It's up to you anyway. But, choosing this temporal existence in exchange for eternal damnation is a poor choice in my books. Khair, tumhaari marzi. I hope you will be offended by what I've wrote. At least you admitted to your lack of knowledge of the decrees of Islam--but as a self-proclaimd Muslim isn't it your farz to FIND OUT first about Islam and from the universally acknowledged scholars of Islam such as Imam Ghazali, BEFORE making such rash decisions as the one above? After all, there is only Islam; nothing else.

AbdulMalick---No, I have NOT edited it; yes, I did cut and paste the entire document. Yes, Khomeini was a kaafir and I am not going to hide my views on that. If you read Question 3 of what I posted along with it's Answer you will see it. The article was taken from a book of about 400 pages so unless you want me to post the entire book ....

BTW, I do NOT support in any way the Taliban, nor the Sipaah-e-Sahaaba nor Jamaat e Islami. I condemn the Sunni Shia killings though I firmly belief Shiasm to be kufr. Rather, I DO support the Traditional Ulama of the Ahle Sunnat w'al Jamaat of the entire world. In the subcontinent the greatest representative was Ala Hazrat, this century. I follow Ala Hazrat's maslak.

And know that without the support of the TRaditional Sunni Ulama, Quad-e-Azam could never have had enough support to create Pakistan. Hazrat Pir Amir al Millat SAyyid Jama'at Ali Shah quds sirruhu was especially instrumental in gaining supporters for the Quaid. IN fact he [may Allah bless me for his sake and bless him more!] gave a fatwa saying that all his mureeds [over a million] HAD to vote for the Muslim League. Also, all of the famous Sufis of our country whom everyone admires are from Ahle Sunnah.

At least Stud has the guts to stand by his own convictions, rightly or wrongly; you are just a slave of Western ideology. Shame on you!

Ashadu Allah ilaaha il Allah Muhammad ur RAsool Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam.

That is the Truth. Absolute Truth. Everything else is baatil, false.

[This message has been edited by Asif (edited April 26, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Asif (edited April 26, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Asif (edited April 26, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Asif (edited April 26, 1999).]

Muslims who speak out against injustice, intolerance are the modern day MUJAHIDEEN (Defenders of True Islam); Stud & others have spoken out against the FAULTY & OUTDATED intrpretation of Fundamentalist Islam and are true Mujahids (Defenders of True Islam).

I have mentioned repeatedly that muslims do not speak out more against injustices because "the penalty for speaking out is total ostracism or even violence". The most popular decree is to call one an 'Apostate' or 'Kafir' as has been done here by Asif, who has no knowledge or authority in decreeing one a 'Kafir' but he wallowed in the exercise anyway - sort of an EGO trip for the Ignorants!
Does Asif or Fundamentalist Islam have any significance in their pronouncements - Actually, No, ZIP NADA! It is not even funny anymore!
Fundamentalist Islam has gone mad - If there is anybody who should be decreed 'Kafir', it is Fundamentalist Islam; Cults are not permissable under Islam and Fundamentalist Islam is a CULT.

Actually, I consider myself a slave of those great savants who have given us this Deen in the way it is today and who have given their lives for it;

YOU are ignorant because you do not know that only a qualified scholar [aalim] can give fatwas; i have never claimed to be such an aalim nor have I given any fatwa myself--rather, I just quoted the fatwa of the greatest scholar this century which is in agreement with the fatwas of the scholars from the Blessed Prophet's time to this day.

YOU are the one who insists Islam is 'outdated' to use your own words.

Tell me, why should Islam be changed to suit Western morality and whims?

An example: the Islamic punishment for adultery of a married couple is stoning to death [if proved--which is v. difficult, but that's another matter]. This is in the hadith sharif, was carried out by Our Beloved Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam, the 4 Rightly Guided Khalifas and many other great Muslims during our history. But, the WEst today considers it 'barbaric'; according to your logic we should do away with it then!

Despite what you wish, Islam is the same religion which was revealed to the Messenger and which was practised by the SAhaba and it cannot be changed to suit anybody. Tell me, Abdul Malick, who has more knowledge of Islam: you or Imam Abu Hanifa? You or the SAhaaba? You or Sayyedna Ali ibn Abi Talib karam Allah wajhu? You or Imam Ghazali? You or Ala Hazrat? Now, should I follow the Islam these people have written of or your version?

Do you know that according to Imaam Ahle Sunnat Hazrat Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, who was around about 1000 years ago plus, one who doesn't pray should be killed [though our Imam Hazrat Abu Hanifa, and the other 2 Imams disagreed--allowing 3 days for repentance]? Do you know that Hazrat Ali had some people burnt alive because they believed that he [radhi Allah anhu] was God?!

So, shall we do away with all parts of Islam hich disagrees with Western ideology; this is what you want isn't it?

Shaykh al Akbar Muhy ud Deen Ibn Arabi quds sirruhu, one of the greatest of Sufi Masters, reknowned for his tolerance and gentleness, even by non-Muslims, when asked by the ruler what should be done with the Chistians, he said apply the jizya!

Now you would call that barbaric and fundamentalist no doubt!

Brother Asif,
I am saying - the Fundamentalists INTREPRETATIONS of Quran & Hadiths are FAULTY & OUT-DATED. A Fundamentalist muslim is a proponent of a fanatic & xenophobic version of Islam.
I am not advocating a garage-sale of our Islamic values & traditions; However, brother Asif, I DO advocate that we be more tolerant & compassionate in how we give meanings/intrepretations to our Quran & Hadiths.
Time changes and we must change with the times; What was good 1400 years or even 50 yrs ago may no longer be relevant today.
All the teachers of Islam are great and they have left us with a rich legacy of knowledge & wisdom; but, the knowledge has to be looked upon & intrepreted as per the present time and circumstances and in keeping with the basic tenets of Islam.
And, why are we - muslims afraid of diversity & pluralism. Diversity and differences are source of strength & pride for a society. Once, you crush the Non-Sunnis, what's next on the agenda - the other sects within Sunni Islam.

[This message has been edited by Adbulmalick (edited April 26, 1999).]

How many of you people actually prey 5 times a day, fast during ramadan, pay your Zakat and help other needy people...., etc.
If not, then, do these things first and dont get involved in useless contemplations. Please, let Allah be the judge of who will go to heaven and who will rott and burn in hell.

Later on
Zman

Well said ZMAN, we "PR*EY" 5 time a day or may be more unfortunately we dont "PRA*Y" 5 times, otherwise there would be a different story.

The irony is that we have changed the rules.
The disciplines for being a Muslim what Holy Prophet(sa) prescribed has been revised.

Holy Prophet’s oath for being a Muslim - belief in;

Declaration of faith- viz “La E laha ill’lallah, Mohammad’ur rasool allah”
Observance of Salat
Fasting during Ramadhan
Paying Zakat
Pilgrimage to the Ka’ba - Hajj

We have condensed that school of thought to just “ONE”.

Belief in Khatam-un Nabeeyeen as the Last Prophet, other wise Kafir

See its so simple, no more hassle to remember all 5 pillars, one is sufficient.

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited April 26, 1999).]

Abdul Malik, I definitely agree with you. Islam is no more than a cult now.

It seems that Asif, Abdullah and their masters (whose slaves they are), are the only learned scholars and the rest are just insane morons. People like them only survive on fatwas of great scholars and not Shariat and Sunnah.

Asif, Do you think this killed for not praying, or burnt alive for acting unIslamically (as you have mentioned), has been able to solve the problems. All this has just created a terror and hatred towards Islam. That’s what media all over the world is presenting. Have you ever heard that there is “no forceful implication in Islam”** (deen main koi jabr nahin)**. so I think either these great personalities failed to understand Islam or your books quote them inappropriately.

My dear you are trying to follow the distorted Islam, and by this you are destroying yourself only and no one else. Indeed everyone has to go to their own graves, then why so much hassle, who so much nafrat, why not “love for all and hatred for none”. atleast don’t dig your grave with your own hands.

In the time of Rasool Allah(sa) when someone commits a sin or becomes a murtad (which is a common daily routine, muslim in morning – munafiq in evening) neither the Holy Prophet(sa) nor the khalifas(ra) or the sahabas(ra).. for such a felony, kicked him/her out of Islam or declare fatawa-e kuft against him, instead they try to bring him back with every possible way. That’s how they struggled and sacrificed for Islam. Is it the same picture you are presenting - NO, Do you people care for anyone else? - NO.
You think Islam is your territory and anyone with a different wavelength is definitely not allowed to step in. What an excellent example of intolerance and stubbornness. You people just want to walk on a very narrow line.

Look, Islam has presented shariat some 1400 years ago, unfortunately these “long chin-whiskers” (in Pakistan specifically) still fail to implicating that Shariat. I wonder what are they waiting for,- christmas or santa clause?. They just distort things that clash with their mental wavelength and try to implicate their false introspection deliberately. That’s the only reason why Islam is slices into so many different ideologies despite One Quran, One God and One Sunnah. All year round, they implicate fatwas-e kufr on each other. I wonder, when an Imam Mehdi will come, how will they accept him all together. I am afraid, he might also be nailed on the cross. or either there will be a separate Imam Mehdi for each group.

Well lets see where this snow ball lands.....

Sir, It will be much better for you to pray with all your heart and soul and ask God to delete these Ahmadis from earth and make them a symbol of His curse for the generation to come. This is the most proper and effective way, you might get some bonus sawab too.

[quote]

“........ then let us pray fervently and invoke the curse of Allah on those who tell lies!” (Al-Imran:62)

[/quote]

** God help only those who lean towards him and ask for his guidance**