I came across this while surfing bbc. This is very disturbing! Please explain your views on this. Sorry if I offended anyone but I am free to give my opinion
[This message has been edited by Astronut (edited July 22, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Astronut (edited July 22, 2001).]
The 2nd pic is fake. Not sure about others.
What's barbaric is Yazid anniliating the prophet's (pbuh) family at karbala.
What's astonishing is the indifference shown by the muslim majority at the tragedy of kerbala.
What's sickening is the respect you sunnis show to the cursed Muwayah amd Yazid for their crimes.
[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
**
What's sickening is the respect you sunnis show to the cursed Muwayah amd Yazid for their crimes.
**
[/quote]
I think that is what shias "think" there is no truth to your statement. Is this what shia-ism is about, allegations and assumptions?
"I am not playing with a full deck!"
[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
**
What's astonishing is the indifference shown by the muslim majority at the tragedy of kerbala.**
[/quote]
Learn from the past NOT live in it!!!
No one has the right to use the past as an excuse to harm others at the present
what is your excuse for doubting the Qur'an a1shah???
Who said anything about doubting the Quran?
Why do you start panicking whenever someone mentions Muawiya or Yazid?
[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
**
Learn from the past NOT live in it!!!
No one has the right to use the past as an excuse to harm others at the present
what is your excuse for doubting the Qur'an a1shah???**
[/quote]
Shi'aism is about discovering the truth through the study of history as it actually happened.
Unfortunately this right has been denied to you by your caliphs and their proteges, your ancestors. They have made you believe their own propanganda and you took it for history.
Now, however, there is no barrier to the truth. It is available everywhere, even on the Internet.
Therefore you must do your own research and learn the knowledge which you have been deprived of all these ages.
[quote]
Originally posted by Abdul Basit:
** I think that is what shias "think" there is no truth to your statement. Is this what shia-ism is about, allegations and assumptions?
**
[/quote]
What most people fail to understand is the intense grief behind these mournings.
The "blood and gore", as it may seem to the unaware Sunnis, is actually genuine grief that is so intense that these people express it in this vivid form.
Most Sunnis do not even know what happened at Karbala, so they cannot imagine what these mourners are feeling.
It should suffice to say that the grief felt at Ashura is more than the grief felt even at the death of one's own parents.
But most people do not understand it. It is a pity, really. But the truth is unstoppable: everyone will learn sooner or later the facts that have been purposely hidden from them for centuries.
Look whos talking!!! hahaha!!!
Aren’t you the one who denied the shia sources and respected writers when they talk about Abdullah Bin Saba? And here you are claiming that shia-ism is about discovering truth and what have you. You don’t even believe in your own historians and scholars and you are telling us only shias have the actual events as they happened in history? Give me a break!
And stop making these lame “truth” statements.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif
“I am not playing with a full deck!”
hey Abdul Basit Bhai,
Would you like me to write a few things about your KHALIFA JIS from your own books?
Some historic events form your own Sahi Sita? Would you like me to post em here. First you gotta promise me that you’ll believe in all of them.
I am waiting for yr reply.
later
So, what was the topic about..!!!!!???
[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
*What's sickening is the respect you sunnis show to the cursed Muwayah amd Yazid for their crimes.
*
[/quote]
Bro a1shah,
I have never seen a single Sunni scholar ever show respect to Yazid. In fact, once during Ramadan I heard on a Sunni radio programme a highly respected scholar denounce Yazid as being "The worst of criminals" for ordering what happened at Karbala.
I guess both parties in this debate hear a lot of disinformation about the other - what was to me the most shocking example of this was once I was speaking to a Shia brother in the chat room and he actually believed that Sunnis considered Yazid to be a prophet!!!!! Astaghfirullah!!!!!
At the end of the day, despite the vicious mud-slinging that all-to-often goes on in this religion forum, I whole-heartedly support the dialogue between Sunnis and Shia on this forum. Only by direct interaction between Sunnis and Shias is it possible to bring to light the false beliefs that each party holds about the other.
Demonstration of this. Suppose 5 months ago, before I came to Gupshup, someone came up to me and said, "Is it true that Shia Muslims dislike all of the Prophet's (saws) companions except Hazrat Ali (ra)?" I would likely have replied in ignorance, "Yes," as this is what I had believed. However, now I know better, having interacted with people like a1shah. So now my reply would be "No, this is not true. Shia Muslims only have strong issues with certain Companions, not all Companions."
Similarly, I hope that after my reply to a1shah's comment, the Shia brothers and sisters who believe that Sunnis respect Yazid for his actions will have learnt that this is not so.
[This message has been edited by mAd_ScIeNtIsT (edited July 22, 2001).]
You are a role model.
[quote]
Originally posted by alizadeh2000:
*Who said anything about doubting the Quran? *
[/quote]
Ibrahim says ; salaams.
Mr alizadeh2000, I addressed this question to a1shah, since you are responding to it, am I to assume you are one and the same person using different nicks to fool us in this forum? Islamically that would be wrong but in shi’ism that is perfectly OK, since taqiyah ( hiding the truth) is a part of shi’ism .
Anyway that question also applies to you, for all shia’s deny the Qur’an which means they deny Allah, which means they deny Qur’an.
Now how is this you may wonder??. It is simple to understand actually.
1) Initially they claimed their Qur’an was three times larger than the current and is kept by the 12th Imam who disappeared when he was five years old( imagine a five old can become an imam and a infallible one at that??)
Now the story seems to be, that Ali (ra) had compiled the Qur’an as revealed to the Prophet (pbuh) hence the current Qur’an has its verses in varying order, since it was compiled by Uthman(ra).
What this means is that, shias are denying Allah’s own words on how the Qur’an will be compiled after the Prophet (pbuh) .
For Allah (swt) revealed to the Prophet that, Iqra!
Surah 75:
16 Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an) to make haste therewith. 5820
17 It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:
18 But when We have promulgated it follow thou its recital (as promulgated):
2) You see Allah ( swt) conveyed that HE had blessed/favored the closest of companions (the First four caliphs in particular will fall in this category) in the Qur’an and anyone who doubts this have denied the Qur’an and hence forth denied Allah (swt)
3) Allah (swt) further conveyed that HE alone will judge mankind and will not even allow the least bit of injustice on anyone and all will be judge accordingly. That means all those that had sinned will NEVER escape from getting their appropriate punishments and rewards.
Here are the shia brethrens in the year 2001 trying to convict people that lived in the 7th century ( whom neither of us have ever met) based on “hearsay” or by blind faith.
First by its every design of passing judgments on our ancestors, ( all human beings come from one creation of a male and female) amounts to a sin, since Judgment on them can Only be done By Allah (swt) and not by man.
Second the evidence presented for it is what we may consider as selective history which are written by groups of people who may or may not be trust worthy.
Which mean shias have again gone against Allah’s commandments ..Iqra!
Surah 22:
69 "Allah will judge between you on the Day of Judgment concerning the matters in which ye differ." 2850
70 Knowest thou not that Allah knows all that is in heaven and on earth? ** Indeed it is all in a record and that is easy for Allah **
Again Iqra!
39: 46 *Say: "O Allah! Creator of the heavens and the earth! Knower of all that is hidden and open! It is Thou that wilt judge between Thy Servants in those matters about which they have differed *." 4314
commentary:
4314 The mysteries of life and death, of worship and spiritual growth, are matters of high moment, which it may be difficult for us to apprehend in this present life. ** It is no use arguing about them and plunging in endless controversies. The proper attitude is to appeal to Allah humbly to accept our purified hearts and Faith, in the firm hope that everything which is now vague to us will be cleared up in the Hereafter, and to pray to Him for His guidance and mercy.** (39.46)
Now since shias persist in trying to convey that they are aware that the facts are such and such , are they not telling us that “they alone are a knower of the truth” when there is no such possibility for them or their imams to make such claims??
This again amounts to denying the Qur’an and denying Allah (swt)
So the question is what are Muslims enjoined to do???
Allah (swt) enjoined this
2:177 ** It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces toward East or West; but it is righteousness to believe in Allah and the Last Day and the Angels and the Book and the Messengers; to spend of your substance out of love for Him for your kin for orphans for the needy for the wayfarer for those who ask and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient in pain (or suffering) and adversity and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth the Allah-fearing. **
Ibrahim says; Hence there is no righteousness in proclaiming that my imam are better than yours or mine was born in the ka’ bah and your was on earth, mine was infallible and yours is not…how silly can one get ??
Did you know only the Judeo-Christian have a doctrine that centered on 12 patriarchs , 12 apostles, 12 tribes and it ended with them since The Priesthood ends with the coming of our Prophet (pbuh)
Islam is about enjoining right conduct and forbidding wrong conduct , Only on account of this I am pursuing your falsehoods to expose its fitnah .
** I hope shia’s understand that they are clearly denying the Qur’an meaning denying Allah (swt) **
[quote]
Originally posted by alizadeh2000:
**
Why do you start panicking whenever someone mentions Muawiya or Yazid?
**
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; How will you know I have panicked?? Please tell me??
Did you use a crystal ball?
Did you use a time traveling machine?
Are you an all knower?
Are you an infallible imam?
Why behave in this manner does not your heart have any senses left?? Is this all about hate based on your convictions, Is that what your Imam have taught you??
This is vile behavior and forbidden in Islam but than again you are a shia who had deviated from Islam and labeled yourself as a shia.
Note: Allah (swt) revealed Islam to mankind not shi’ism!
Or will you falsely attribute your behaviour on Islam??
learn from the past NOT live in it!!!
opps sorry , posted twice!
[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited July 22, 2001).]
Very sad that after all our discussions, we have people like Ibrahim, utter the same old mis-information that has been taught to him and others like him.
a1shah says: The contents of the holy qur'an are perfect, and is protected by Allah (swt). Therein is no doubt. The order of the verses are not in the same order as in when the ayats were revealed. This is accepted by the muslim ummah. What say you ?
a1shah says: The holy imams (as) have told us that the REVELATIONS that came to the holy prophet (pbuh) were MUCH MORE than what the qur'an contains. These included his speech and every action that he undertook.
BUT BY THE WILL OF ALLAH (swt), not all of the revelations to our holy apostle (pbuh) became part of the qur'an. The qur'an contains EXACTLY what Allah (swt) has prescribed for us. Wherein lies your problem ?
a1shah says: Prophet Adam (as) was created without a mother and father. Prophet Isa (as) had no father. He proclaimed his prophethood as a newly born baby, as testified in the holy qur'an. He is still alive and in the presence of the Almighty (swt).
And yet you find amazing that Allah (swt) is keeping the 12th imam, Mahdi (as), in occultation ?
As for the rest of yr comments, a1shah will not dignify them with any comments.
a1shah says: ws
Abu Huraira narrated:
The Prophet (PBUH) looked toward Ali, Hasan, Husain, and Fatimah (AS), and then said: "I am in war with those who will fight you, and in peace with those who are peaceful to you."
Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p699
Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p52
Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p767, Tradition #1350
Now, what are your opinions on Muwayah, Yazid, and Aisha ?
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by a1shah:
Very sad that after all our discussions, we have people like Ibrahim, utter the same old mis-information that has been taught to him and others like him
Ibrahim says: Salaams,
a1shah, you keep going around the bush, stand still and face the facts. Islam is about how we enjoin right conduct in the present Not about who did what in the past .
My point was simply that you all are negating the Qur’an and that cannot be allowed at anytime. You can deny all you want about the past BUT If you sincerely claim that the Qur’an is true than accept the fact that you are in error for calling to judgment and slandering the companions of The Prophet.
But most of all for negating Allah’s commands as conveyed to you in my earlier post.
a1shah says: The contents of the holy qur'an are perfect, and is protected by Allah (swt). Therein is no doubt. The order of the verses are not in the same order as in when the ayats were revealed. This is accepted by the muslim ummah. What say you ?
Ibrahim says; So you and shias are claiming these ayats had to be in that order and the current order in which Allah compiled them are in accurate? Or should that become an issue? Because this is what the Jews and Christians are claiming and they are using this issue brought up by ignorant shias as their evidence.
a1shah says: The holy imams (as) have told us that the REVELATIONS that came to the holy prophet (pbuh) were MUCH MORE than what the qur'an contains. These included his speech and every action that he undertook.
Ibrahim says; Again you talk about holy imam telling us this and that! where in the Qur’an or sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) it is declared that they will be “holy” imams for muslims??
The very notion that they are “holy” amounts to error in Islam.
Now you have proofed what the shias hide in thier hearts and minds!! Your statement the Qur’an is MUCH MORE and also contained the sunnah amounts to error.
For sunnah is sunnah and Allah’s words are Allah’s words they cannot be combined like the Bible. So the shia belief is false and only Allah (swt) words remain with us as Allah (swt) had enjoined.
a1shah says: BUT BY THE WILL OF ALLAH (swt), not all of the revelations to our holy apostle (pbuh) became part of the qur'an. The qur'an contains EXACTLY what Allah (swt) has prescribed for us. Wherein lies your problem ?
**Ibrahim says; Again you expose your errors when you say “not all of the revelations to the Prophet (pbuh) became part of the Qur’an” !!
Tell us which part of it is not found in the current Qur’an?? …hence you and shias are propagating falsehood and become a denier of the Qur’an.
Another problem being, the very belief that these holy imams knew what the Prophet (pbuh)and the closest companions did not know amounts to falsehood. **
a1shah says: Prophet Adam (as) was created without a mother and father. Prophet Isa (as) had no father. He proclaimed his prophethood as a newly born baby, as testified in the holy qur'an. He is still alive and in the presence of the Almighty (swt).
And yet you find amazing that Allah (swt) is keeping the 12th imam, Mahdi (as), in occultation ?
Ibrahim says; This is funny, did you not realize that what was revealed concerning Prophet Eesa (pbuh) was foretold from the beginning? Are you so naïve to believe that there will be another Prophet?? (Mahdi) that will be sent who is alive for the past 1300 years in occultation in a cave , keeping the intact Qur’an with him??
This child disappeared at the age of five, ( only Allah knows what happened to him) but the notion that he is an imam is rather silly for all Prophets were created by Allah for a purpose which they fulfilled at the time they were given life, none of them lived only for five years and than disappear to be sent back again!!
All prophets except Prophet Eesa (as) became Prophets only after the age of 40, meaning they had to face trials and tribulations in order to learn patience and virtue before being given prophet hood.
BTW when did this last imam get his name changed to Mahdi??
Please get help my brother, you truly need it, blind faith in erroneous concepts amounts to ignorance.
a1shah says: As for the rest of yr comments, a1shah will not dignify them with any comments.
Ibrahim says; You mean you cannot deny the truth in them and that it exposes the false doctrines behind shi’ism
WS
Learn from your PAST not LIVE in it!!!
[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
**
Now, what are your opinions on Muwayah, Yazid, and Aisha ?**
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; Islam is not based upon opinions!!
It is based upon the Qur'an and Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh)
even here we are told only to follow..Iqra!!!
3: 7 He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. ** But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical seeking discord and searching for its hidden meanings but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord"; and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.**
Ibrahim,
I'm not sure its wise on my part to waste time answering your posts. Your ignorance has dumb-founded me.
1) I am stating a fact: The verses of the qur'an are not in chronological order. Period. The content of the qur'an is PERFECT, and is protected by Allah (swt). I have not said that this is an issue. IT IS A RECOGNIZED FACT. Only you are making this an issue.
2) The qur'an is COMPLETE. I am correcting YOUR CLAIM that shias believe that the qur'an is incomplete.
IT IS COMPLETE. The revelations that our holy prophet (pbuh) got were immense BUT NOT ALL OF THOSE REVELATIONS WERE FOR THE QUR'AN.
THE QURAN IS EXACTLY WHAT ALLAH (SWT) ORDERED FOR US.
What don't you understand ?
3) Your claim that "it is amazing for Allah (swt) to sustain Imam Mahdi (as)" is what is hilarious.
Are you limiting the powers of the Al Mighty (swt) ?
And for your knowledge, Al Mahdi is an Imam. You should know that our holy rasul (pbuh) is the Last and Seal of prophets (pbuh).
As for the rest of your remarks, believe all that you want. I am posting here for the sake of other sunni brothers/sisters who may be mis-led by you incorrect beliefs.
As for you, you are a lost cause.
ws
[This message has been edited by a1shah (edited July 22, 2001).]