To Shia bros. and Sis.

Ibrahim · July 23, 2001, 5:53am

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by a1shah:
**Ibrahim, I'm not sure its wise on my part to waste time answering your posts. Your ignorance has dumb-founded me.

Ibrahim says; Salaams to all,

Brother a1shah! You can keep running all your life and carry on being a shia instead of being a Muslim and practicing Islam. I cannot change what Allah (swt) had ordained. But you have yet to face the facts that Allah told you Not to judge but you and your current imams are making a mockery of themselves by judging our ancestors whom we have very little knowledge of.

A1shah: I am stating a fact: The verses of the qur'an are not in chronological order. Period.

Ibrahim says: why must it be in that order when Allah had conveyed to the Prophet (pbuh) He will compile them as HE wishes??

A1shah says: The content of the qur'an is PERFECT, and is protected by Allah (swt). I have not said that this is an issue. IT IS A RECOGNIZED FACT. Only you are making this an issue.

Ibrahim says; It becomes an issue because it is shia belief that the Qur’an is MUCH MORE ( your own words) . which is what the enemy of Allah are using to misguide young Muslims, claiming the shia have recorded that it was much more hence some parts are missing. got it??

Your current stand smells of taqiyah when earlier you wrote

((((a1shah says: BUT BY THE WILL OF ALLAH (swt),** not all of the revelations to our holy apostle (pbuh) became part of the qur'an.** The qur'an contains EXACTLY what Allah (swt) has prescribed for us.))))

*which means some parts are NOT there as Allah (swt) willed but establishing a lie as truth, that indeed some parts have been removed *

a1shah says: The qur'an is COMPLETE. I am correcting YOUR CLAIM that shias believe that the qur'an is incomplete. IT IS COMPLETE. The revelations that our holy prophet (pbuh) got were immense BUT NOT ALL OF THOSE REVELATIONS WERE FOR THE QUR'AN. THE QURAN IS EXACTLY WHAT ALLAH (SWT) ORDERED FOR US.What don't you understand ?

Ibrahim says; Kindly tell us which revelations were Not for the Qur’an and where they went to??

This is what I am pointing to you again, this belief amounts to falsehood!! And is based totally on misconceptions of the false imamhood. Any such belief amounts to negating what Allah had ordained for us because such claims implies that many parts of the existing revelation have been covered up!!

1) This gives rise to the notion that someone had deceived Muslims to believe only in the current Qur’an , which is what shias belief.

2) It further gives weight to the claim that the five old child will return with the full Qur’an ( another shia belief)

Such claims are invented and it leads one to belief that these imams ( who died unnaturally by the will of Allah) knows better than the Prophet (pbuh) and his closest companions, which is Absurd!!!

If we allowed such claims it means every enemy against Islam will start claiming, hey your Qur’an is missing in parts which is what they have been doing on account of this silly notions that shias have invented for themselves.

Which was established by the false imams to strengthen their claims that Ali (ra) and imamhood was mentioned in the Qur’an (which is another Shia belief) ( utterly baseless)

A1shah says: Your claim that "it is amazing for Allah (swt) to sustain Imam Mahdi (as)" is what is hilarious. Are you limiting the powers of the Al Mighty (swt) ?

Ibrahim says; I did not make such claims you do!! So stop twisting my words.

READ what I wrote

Ibrahim says; This is funny, did you not realize that what was revealed concerning Prophet Eesa (pbuh) was foretold from the beginning? Are you so naïve to believe that there will be another Prophet?? (Mahdi) that will be sent who is alive for the past 1300 years in occultation in a cave , keeping the intact Qur’an with him??

This child disappeared at the age of five, ( only Allah knows what happened to him) but the notion that he is an imam is rather silly for all Prophets were created by Allah for a purpose which they fulfilled at the time they were given life, none of them lived only for five years and than disappear to be sent back again!!

All prophets except Prophet Eesa (as) became Prophets only after the age of 40, meaning they had to face trials and tribulations in order to learn patience and virtue before being given prophet hood.

BTW when did this last imam get his name changed to Mahdi??

Ibrahim says: Which you did not answer but tried to twist it otherwise!!

A1shah says: And for your knowledge, Al Mahdi is an Imam. You should know that our holy rasul (pbuh) is the Last and Seal of prophets (pbuh).

Ibrahim says: Which is what I am saying read again and THINK when you read! My point being imams do not have such privileges as given to Prophets. Hence the notion that this kid is an imam is absurd !

Learn from the PAST don’t live in it!!!

a1shah · July 23, 2001, 6:14am

I am indeed talking with a stump.

Every action and spoken words of the holy prophet (pbuh) was a revelation.

Beside his actions and his decisions, every single word of his speeches was the Commands of Allah. Almighty states in the Quran:

53:1
By the Star when it sets,
53:2
Your companion (i.e., Prophet) does not err/wander, nor is he deceived
53:3
Nor does he speak out of his desire;
53:4
It is no less than a revelation that is revealed.
53:5
The Mighty in Power has taught him.

Are you telling us that the Qur'an encompasses every word and action that the prophet (pbuh) stated ? Ofcourse not.

The qur'an contains the REVELATIONS of Allah (swt). The Qur'an is complete. THERE IS NO OTHER QUR'AN.

But all of the revelations received by the prophet (pbuh) in totality, is greater than the volume of the revelations in the qur'an.

These revelations were ONLY FOR THE HOLY PROPHET (pbuh) and not part of the QUR'an.

Thus all the speeches of Prophet were revelation, and surely the speeches
of Prophet was not limitted to Quran. It includes interpretation of Quran
(part of which were direct revelation) as well as his Sunnah (part of which
were indirect revelation).

A prominent Shia scholar is Allama Muhammad Ridha Mudhaffar who wrote
in his Shia Creed book that:
"We believe that the Holy Quran is revealed by Allah through the Holy
Prophet of Islam dealing with every thing which is necessary for the
guidance of mankind. It is an everlasting miracle of the Holy Prophet
the like of which can not be produced by human mind. It excels in its
eloquence, clarity, truth and knowledge. This Divine Book has not been
tampered with by any one. This Holy Book which we recite today is the
same Holy Quran which was revealed to the Holy Prophet. Any one who claims it to be otherwise is an evil-doer, a mere sophist, or else he
is sadly mistaken. All of those who have this line of thinking have
gone astray as Allah in Quran said: "Falsehood can not reach the Quran
from any direction (41:42)"

Shi'i reference: The Beliefs of Shi'ite School, by Muhammad Ridha Mudhaffar, English version, pp 50-51

Ignorance has no limits.

a1shah · July 23, 2001, 6:19am

Ibrahim,

I was just re-reading your understanding of my posts, since its baffling why you can't seem to understand such simple ideas.

I now realize that your comprehension of the english language is severly deficient.

I can see now why you keep twisting the meanings.

It's ok.

ws

Ibrahim · July 23, 2001, 6:27am

Ibrahim says; Salaams to all

a1shah is there a belief in shi'ism that the five old kid (last imam) will return one day with the complete Qur'an?

Just answer me this Q, I will take your word for it , since this thread seems though I am talking to a practicing shia ( taqiyah )

[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited July 23, 2001).]

Ibrahim · July 23, 2001, 1:18pm

Originally posted by a1shah:
I am indeed talking with a stump.

Ibrahim says; that is strange only human beings can talk with each other since you consider me a stump, what should I consider you?

A1shah: Every action and spoken words of the holy prophet (pbuh) was a revelation.

Ibrahim says; Every action and spoken words are meant as guidance for us BUT not a revelation for mankind from Allah (swt) Such notions are in error manifest. Since ONLY words put into the mouth of the Prophet by Allah (swt) are revelations others that the Prophet (pbuh) said and did cannot all amount to revelations when it has nothing to do with Islam.

A1shah says: Beside his actions and his decisions, every single word of his speeches was the Commands of Allah. Almighty states in the Quran:

53:1
By the Star when it sets,
53:2
Your companion (i.e., Prophet) does not err/wander, nor is he deceived
53:3
Nor does he speak out of his desire;
53:4
It is no less than a revelation that is revealed.
53:5
The Mighty in Power has taught him.

Ibrahim says; Brother ! please do not add into the Qur’an your own understanding these verses are related to certain events

Read again this translation of the above! And read the commentary.

1 By the Star when it goes down 5085
2 Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled 5086
3 Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.
4 It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:
5 He was taught by one mighty in Power 5087
6 Endued with Wisdom: For he appeared (in stately form)
7 While he was in the highest part of the horizon: 5088

commentary from Yusof ali

5086 "Your Companion" is the holy Prophet Muhammad, who had lived among the Quraish. He is defended from three kinds of charges that the Unbelievers brought against him: (1) that he was going astray, either through defect of intelligence or through carelessness; (2) that he was being misled or deceived by evil spirits; and (3) that he spoke out of a whim or impulse, or from a selfish desire to impress his own personality. None of these charges were true. On the contrary he had direct inspiration from Allah. (53.2)

5087 This is referred by the Commentators to the angel Gabriel, through whom the inspiration came. Cf. lxxxi, 20. (53.5)

5088 Gabriel appeared in stately form. Istawa in verse 61 translated "appeared", means literally "mounted" or "ascended", or "set himself to execute a design"; see n. 1386 to x. 3. (53.7)

Now if you took this as to mean everything that was said and done by the Prophet for 23 years are all revelations , than you have a problem because the prophet had recorded revelations down only when he received them, had they all been revelations the Prophet would have recorded all of them down which he did not do so.

The notion that every words uttered by the Prophet in his 23 years of commission as a Prophet (pbuh) will defy common sense. For revelations are revealed in order to be memorized and practiced ( the reason for its slow revelations and not sent as a complete book from Allah (swt) . Here If the shia have been misled to believe every word and action of the Prophet (pbuh) in his 23 years as a Prophet, is a revelation, I need not say any more that is your own misconception.

A1shah says: Are you telling us that the Qur'an encompasses every word and action that the prophet (pbuh) stated ? Ofcourse not.

Ibrahim says; why would every action and word be a revelation? Do you mean the Prophets personal family relationships are revelations too?

A!shah says: But all of the revelations received by the prophet (pbuh) in totality, is greater than the volume of the revelations in the qur'an.

Ibrahim says; Brother this is silly! All the revelations that Allah (swt) sent had been meticulously recorded , memorized and practiced anything else the Prophet did were memorized as the hadiths which were related to Islam, His personal affairs and interactions with other human beings were also recorded ( memorized) as his sunnah.

Are you claiming that the Qur’an and hadiths should be joined together? Or are you claiming that other revelations that Allah sent had not been included in the Qur’an ???, (that would be the meaning behind the shia claim)

A1shah says: These revelations were ONLY FOR THE HOLY PROPHET (pbuh) and not part of the QUR'an.

Ibrahim says; By Allah! what silliness is this? All revelations from Allah (swt) were meant for all of mankind and not for the Prophet’s personal use. Even his personal thoughts that Allah (swt) wanted to expose to us had been revealed in the Qur’an , how can you now claim that they are other personal revelations meant for the Prophet (pbuh) only not being included in the Qur'an??

How odd and what will this be that they have amounted to two thirds of the Qur’an???

Please show us some evidence for this claims!!

A1shah says: Thus all the speeches of Prophet were revelation, and surely the speeches of Prophet was not limitted to Quran. It includes interpretation of Quran
(part of which were direct revelation) as well as his Sunnah (part of which
were indirect revelation).

Ibrahim says : Brother ! what do you suppose the hadiths are??? Again let me ask you what happened to these revelations and who recorded them??

Common sense always speaks too late!!