To Kill or not to kill is the issue..

Dear Guppies,
Came across this very interesting article by AMir Taheri, frankly speaking, this is a new concept which leads to some serious questioning and answers to whats happening in the Muslim world. Anyone with knowledge of this subject please do contribute. Thanks.

**To kill or not to kill is the issueBy Amir Taheri, Special to Gulf News

http://www.gulf-news.com/images/shim.gif

****An obscure Arabic word is making a comeback from centuries of oblivion to dominate the debate about whom Muslims are allowed to kill in the service of political goals. **

**The debate has been triggered by the killing of large numbers of Muslims, including women and children, by Islamist insurgents in Iraq. **

The question is whether or not such acts are permissible. Judging by fatwas (religious opinions) and articles written by Muslim theologians and commentators, the Islamic ummah (community) is divided on the issue.

Those who believe that killing innocent people, including Muslims, is justified in certain cases, base their opinion on the principle of tattarrus. The word, which originally meant “dressing up”, was first used as a religious term in the book Al-Mustasfa (The Place of Purification) by Abu Hamed Al Ghazali (d.1127), to mean “using ordinary Muslims as human shields for Islamic combatants against infidel fighters”.

In the 13th century Ibn Tayimiah, a leading theologian, wove a whole doctrine around the term to justify the killing of Muslims while combating Mongol invaders. By the end of the 13th century, however, the concept had fallen into disuse and a new consensus developed against the killing of non-combatants.

In 1995 Ayman Al Zawahiri, the Egyptian mentor of Osama Bin Laden, used the concept in his book The Rule for Suicide-Martyr Operations. Arguing that the ends justify the means, Al Zawahiri insisted that the killing of Muslims, including women and children, was not a sinful act provided the combatants were fighting “the enemies of Islam”.

More recently that view has been endorsed by Yousuf Al Qaradawi, an Egyptian shaikh working in Qatar. Now, however, Al Qaradawi has expanded his doctrine to allow for the killing of innocent Iraqi Muslims in Iraq. His argument is stark: what matters is the broader interest of the Islamic ummah which could, under certain circumstances, necessitate operations in which Muslim civilians lose their lives.

That position is supported by several Saudi theologians including Hammoud Al Uqalla, Ali Al Khudhair, Nasser Al Fahd, Ahmad Al Khalidi and Safar Al Hawali. Their argument is that the broader interest of the ummah requires the expulsion of the US-led forces from Iraq and that the killing of innocent Iraqis in whatever numbers is of no concern to the combatants whose place in paradise is assured.

Other Saudi theologians, including Abu Mohammad Al Maqdasi and Abu Basir Al Tartussi, go further and apply tattarrus to situations where no “infidel” troops are present. Thus they justify the killing of innocent Muslim Saudis in Saudi Arabia because, they claim, such actions could lead to the establishment of a " truly Islamic regime".

Point of dispute
The starkest defence of tattarrus in its new sense has come from Abu Musaab Al Zarqawi, the Al Qaida mastermind in Iraq.

The only point of dispute among supporters of tattarrus is related to procedural matters. Can Islamic combatants decide whom to kill and when or should they obtain a fatwa in every single case?

Showabel Al Zahrani, a Saudi militant and author of Views of Theologians Concerning The Rules of Raids and Tattarrus claims that what is needed is a “flexible understanding” of the concept. “To demand that a combatant get all his operations approved by a theologian in advance is a demand for inaction,” he writes. “The better rule is to allow the combatant to do as he sees fit and have his actions approved afterwards.”

Al Zarqawi, too, says there is no need for fatwas in each case. A fatwa issued by Bin Laden in 1999 authorising the killing of “enemies of Islam” is sufficient. It is up to the muqatelin (combatants) to decide who is an enemy of Islam.

Abu Unus Al Shami, one of the insurgent leaders killed in Baghdad in September 2004, held a similar position. His claim was that the insurgents in Iraq had “permanent authority” to kill whomever they thought was necessary in order to “re-conquer Iraq for Islam”. Abu Hufus Al Masri, mastermind of the Madrid massacre in 2004, also claimed combatants had had the authority to decide when and where and against whom to strike.

“We are at war against the infidel and its apostate allies,” he wrote. “And in a war he who fights has the authority to decide what action is best, leaving the final judgment to The Most High.”

Shaikh Mohammad Hussain Fadhlallah, the spiritual leader of the Lebanese Hezbollah, however, says that combatants do not have such authority and should refer each case to an authorised mujtahid (guide). He is uncomfortable by the fact that the majority of those killed by insurgents in Iraq are Shiites such as himself. While majority view among Islamist activists seems to justify tattarrus many voices are raised against it. Grand Ayatollah Ali Al Sistani, the primus inter pares of Shiite theologians, condemns tattarrus in its current sense as an “innovation” (bid’aah) and calls on Iraqi Shiites not to embark on revenge killings against Sunni insurgents.

Shaikh Mohammad Sayyed Tantawi, dean of Cairo’s Al Azhar University, insists that Islamic law “rejects all attempts on human life and all attacks on civilians.”

“Nothing in Islam justifies the deliberate killing of non-combatants,” Tantawi says. “Tattarrus applies to collateral damage in a war between two regular armies and not to action perpetrated by self-styled combatants.”

Najih Al Ebrahim, another Egyptian theologian, also castigates what he terms “the abuse of tattarrus”.

“No one can use tattarrus to justify the shedding of innocent blood,” he says. “The only time that tattarrus is allowed is when Muslim combatants have to kill a fellow Muslim who is captured by the infidel and may, under torture, reveal secrets that could help the infidel against the true believers. Apart from that shedding Muslim blood is the gravest of sins in Islam.”

Yet another Egyptian theologian, Hesham Abdul Zahir, says the killing of Iraqi civilians by the insurgents in Iraq is “totally unjustifiable under any circumstances”.

“Tattarrus is relevant only in the case of Muslim women and children who are captured in a war by the infidel,” he says. “In such a situation it would be permissible to kill them to prevent them from being converted into other faiths by the infidel or abused by infidel soldiers.”

Jassem Al Shamri, a Saudi theologian, rejects the authority of the “self-styled ulema” to reinterpret Islamic concepts for political goals.

“These gentlemen sit in air-conditioned rooms and drink iced mango juice and issue fatwas for indiscriminate killing,” Al Shamri says. “We never see any of them or their children sent on suicide missions.”

Shaikh Abdul Mohsin Al Ubaikan, a Saudi theologian, has proposed “a theological summit” to discuss tattarrus and related issues.

“Is it enough for an individual to say he is fighting for Islam in order to claim a licence to kill anyone, anywhere and anytime?” Al Ubaikan asks.

Amir Taheri is an Iranian author and journalist based in Europe. He’s a member of Benador Associates.

Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..

Tattarrus. Tattarrus. Tattarrus

Such are the times we live in, we make it a point to discuss non-issues in great length but ignore something this important. I wonder why? Guppies, Iam disappointed to say the least no one picked up this subject which has impacted many a innocent muslim.

Letd c if there is anyone who can try and make sense out of this concept.

Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..

This is one the most dilapidated drivel I have read in a looong time...

Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..

I guess that means u hv no idea what tattarrus means, right?

Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..

Me either...

Article states:

The word, which originally meant "dressing up", was first used as a religious term in the book Al-Mustasfa (The Place of Purification) by Abu Hamed Al Ghazali (d.1127), to mean "using ordinary Muslims as human shields for Islamic combatants against infidel fighters".

I wonder if translated correctly?

Perhaps the idea of tattarrus was created to allow ability to forgive an unfathomable situation.

And.

Not to be studied for use as an excuse to place your brothers and sisters in harms way.

Is commen moral sense to protect and care for our loved ones.

Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..

I have never heard of Tattarus and have no idea bout it,And i think its totally unjustifiable

Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..

All I know is that there is no reason for anyone to kill except in defence of their life (if it is in immediate danger, not a threat).

A justification, is just that, not a command from God/Allah, what have you. When you start making and finding excuses for taking lives, you are lost already to God. And for those who will jump on this, I mean Muslims and Christians alike on both sides of that particular war.

I have a hard time believeing that a woman and child shopping for food or a man working intended to be used as sheilds and were planning to die, they were going about their lives. That is one (not the only one, but one) of the most evil reasonings I have heard for taking a life.

Wouldn't the intent of the innocents count or just the murderers?

BTW, what is this piece of reasoning:

[QUOTE]
"Tattarrus is relevant only in the case of Muslim women and children who are captured in a war by the infidel," he says. "In such a situation it would be permissible to kill them to prevent them from being converted into other faiths by the infidel or abused by infidel soldiers."
[/QUOTE]

How worthless are people when they say it is alright to kill others because of something that MIGHT have happened.

Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..

Killing non-muslim civilians is not allowed in islam, let alone killing Muslims.

Killing any human unjustly is the biggest sin in Islam. Those advocating killing muslims in Iraq are infact Mad dogs. Every religion has its fair share of these kind of theogical Fanatics, be it jews ,hindus, christians or muslims.

Quran clearly said that, ' who killed one man unjustly, it is just like he killed entire mankind'

Prophet strictly prohibited his army from hurting any "Non-muslim" civilian at the time of conquering Mecca. The same was the clear instruction at every conquest later on...

These fanatics are putting a blind eye to clear teachings of Islam and pratice of Muslims for centuries and then taking a vague incident by people of later time and making it a justification for killing fellow muslims, and issuing ticket to paradise to all murderers.

Insurgency and guerrilla fighters needs some intelligence and common sense and may want to look at recent past successful gurrella fight, And that was Afghanistan.

They fought against supper power for twenty years and always pricisely targeted enemy combatants and logistics never they targeted their own people.

And in Iraq, they kill 100 Iraqis and injure 2 personel of enemy forces. Either they are too stupid to follow the fatwas from fanatic without any logic and reference in religion or they are mentally sick.

Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..

Scholars like Hamad Al Ghazali, Ibn Taimiyiah, Qaradawi are no small fries when it comes to Islamic history.

Can anyone source additional information on this subject, will certainly appreciate the input.

Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..

Those who devise rules for killing others are not theologian but mere ratscum SOBs. I cannot believe this is even remotely considered any form of of theology. So what if they quote something fwritten in 13th century? All it means is there were similar ratscum SOBs in 13th century also!

Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..

dispicable.

Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..

I have a question here............ kind of in relation to this.

If I am a person (usually a young angry man) who follows and believes this, I do a suicide mission and kill some civilians (knowing that I was going to kill both civilians and soldiers) along with soldiers and myself. Let us leave the soldiers out of it, but now it is a time of judgement for me. If I was taught and believed that I would go to heaven, do I? Or do my actions in ignorance count against me? Assume I was never taught any different.

Also, is suicide a sin, even as a weapon against invaders.

I am curious about this. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE dumb it down for me, don't throw all the technical Islamic jargon out there and expect me to understand. Plain words as simply as possible works well for me. Thanks (AQ- mainly that was for you, I know most people understand you and agree with your points, but you lose me all the time, my fault entirely, but this I really would like to know about)

Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..

Muslim_Queen??? anyone??

The above is a serious question that I have often wondered about...............

Am I the only boring person here on a Saturday :(

Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..

minah-pa: No one needs to tell a person that they should not kill innocent people or civilians. That's a given. These suicide bombers are not as ignorant as you think. They do read the Quran, which says not to kill innocent people. They only focus on the Jihad versus, and listen and obey another person who takes it out of context.

I am not God, so I can't say what will happen to them, but I would guess that they will be held accountable for their actions. I base my judgement on what it says in the Quran.

Your other question - you don't need to use suicide as a weapon. You can always THROW the bomb and run. At least there is an attempt to save your own life, which is very different from suicide bombing.

I do not condone throwing bombs or suicide bombing, by the way.

Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..

Plus minah-pa, a lot of people do violent acts out of sheer anger and hatred. They don't stop and rationalize before they do something horrible to innocents in war.

The topic of this thread surprises me. I would think people would know better, and I hope its a joke.

Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..

suicide missions were never part of Islamic freedom strugles ever, I don’t know where they came up from. Firghting enemy combatant and dying during this is considered ultemate martyrdom called ‘Shahadat’ in islam. But killing civillians has never been any where any part of Islamic freedom struggle.

These recruits who are trained to be suicide bombers are

  1. brainwashed to follow what ever their mentor is saying
  2. They have only the capicity of thinking only at one frequency, that is installed in them by their mentor.
  3. They consider everyone either infidel or agents of infidel, who do not agree with their mission or line of thinking.

Contrary to common knowledge, brainwashed population is huge, not only in Islam but in every major religion. And Sadly getting recruits for these missions is not hard at all.

Now I already mentioned Afghan freedom struggle, How they managed to win a war against such a giant ???

It was purely because of their bravery and innovative skills…

One of their interesting tactics from 80s

'Few Afghan fighters are hiding in a cave outskirts of Kandhar, waiting for soviet tank to pass through that area, they are waiting for days with limited suplies…

One day they see a tank is comming, they get ready and gather their “logistics” few chains and iron rods, when carefully plant these scrap material in the wheel of that tank… after moving a few meters ahead the wheel get stuck, jam unable to move…

Now the afghans are waiting patiently in their hideouts.. The tank crew is aware of this situation they know that Afghan guerrillas must be out there … so they don’t come out, they remain in tank for two day consuming all their supplies and the afghans are waiting for them …

So one soviets ultimately comes out ready to face guerrillas but to their surprise they dont find them nearby … They all come out and start repairing tank..
Afghans are observing them, when they think that soviets are complacent… they atack them with Ghulail (ask ghulail the meaning :slight_smile: ) and guns or whatever they have. They kill the soldiers and capture the tank and all the ammunition’.

The end result…

Mission accomplished without any civilian casualties :salute:

Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..

PCG - I understand really - my question about judgement was based on the Islamic teachings of intent. I know that suicide bombings etc are not mainstream. I also know that most Muslims do not condone any of this.

I know that most recruits are not ignorant, but I also know the power a teacher has to mold and to manipulate a mind that is angry or hurt to begin with. It may not be that they chose, but more that they are lead to focus.

Like the analogy of throwing the bomb :)

Code_Red - I know that the recruits have to be brainwashed, etc. Thank you for being so clear about that.

I liked the Afghan story. Thank you, that is how it should be done.

But I was wondering about intent and if these children/young people truly believe that they are doing something sanctioned by and for their religion, does this belief and conviction help them at the days of judgement? Do the teachings of intent apply here?

I understand that final judgement is between Allah and the person, but is there anything that applies to this? Someone who is brainwashed or taught a certain way, would they be viewed as mentally unable to make decisions or weak and given special consideration that way?

Hopefully I'm not confusing people.

Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..

Hello minah,

Here is why they mislead and are misled:

[al-Baqarah 2:8] And of mankind are some who say: We believe in Allah and the Last Day, when they believe not. [al-Baqarah 2:9] They think to beguile Allah and those who believe, and they beguile none save themselves; but they perceive not. [al-Baqarah 2:10] In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie.[al-Baqarah 2:11.10] And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only.[al-Baqarah 2:12.6] Are not they indeed the mischief-makers ? But they perceive not. …[al-Baqarah 2:13] And when it is said unto them: believe as the people believe, they say: shall we believe as the foolish believe ? are not they indeed the foolish ? But they know not.

Here is what will happen to those who mislead and are misled into corrupting the earth:

[as-Saffat 37:27] And some of them draw near unto others, mutually questioning.
[as-Saffat 37:28] They say: Lo! ye used to come unto us, imposing, (swearing that ye spoke the truth). [as-Saffat 37:29] They answer: Nay, but ye (yourselves) were not believers. [as-Saffat 37:30] We had no power over you, but ye were wayward folk. [as-Saffat 37:31] Now the Word of our Lord hath been fulfilled concerning us. Lo! we are about to taste (the doom). [as-Saffat 37:32] Thus we misled you. Lo! we were (ourselves) astray. [as-Saffat 37:33] Then lo! this day they (both) are sharers in the doom. [as-Saffat 37:34] Lo! thus deal We with the guilty.

[al-Ahzab 33:66] On the day when their faces are turned over in the Fire, they say: Oh, would that we had obeyed Allah and had obeyed His messenger!
[al-Ahzab 33:67] And they say: Our Lord! Lo! we obeyed our princes and great men, and they misled us from the Way. [al-Ahzab 33:68] Our Lord! Oh, give them double torment and curse them with a mighty curse.

4.97: Lo! as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they wrong themselves, (the angels) will ask: In what were ye engaged ? They will say: We were oppressed in the land. (The angels) will say: Was not Allah’s earth spacious that ye could have migrated therein ? As for such, **their habitation will be hell, **an evil journey’s end;

On the other hand, Allah is a just and merciful Lord, capable of forgiving too. He will judge each individual under the mitigating circumstances of their life experiences and capacity. I should point out that these are my conclusions based on my reading of the Quran.

regards,

bob

Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..

{edited}

Please stick to topic and avoid posting crap. thanks

Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..

^^
Who let the (mad) dogs out.....now I luv that American song.....