Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..
Methinks Guy1 was rejected for a visa nad instead sits behind his computer bashing americans 
Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..
Thank you Bob, much appreciated.
Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..
You are quite welcome. By the way, I have presented a portrait of a tolerant muslim on the thread Al Anam verse 108. I think you might enjoy it. It provides a contrast to the deluded mischief maker, described above.
regards,
bob
Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..
Thanku all for contributing your input on this subject. Here’s some more information:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/islkill.htm
Much of it is the same but with links to comments made by Qaradawi…
Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..
On the authority of Ibn Mas'ood (radiAllaahu anhu) who said : The Messenger of Allaah (sallAllaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said :
"It is not permissible to spill the blood of a Muslim except in three [instances] : the married person who commits adultery, a life for a life, and the one who forsakes his religion and separates from the community."
It was related by al-Bukhaaree and Muslim.
I think this is a very clear Hadeeth which leaves no room for this "tattarrus" concept. Hadeeth/Sunnah always take precedence over Fiqh.
Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..
...a life for a life??
sigh
...just when I begin to understand and appreciate....
Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..
Is that a new concept to you? 
Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..
No, not a new custom and not a new belief, but definitely against what I believe.
Life is given by one Being, God, and should be taken away by that one Being. You take a life, especially in retribution, you condemn yourself. Self-defence is the only acceptable excuse. Not after the fact but while it is happening.
OK - that is a personal belief, not one I would push on anyone, everyone makes their own choices about this. But that is what I was taught and what I believe.
Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..
Assalamualaikum,
the rules set by Allah and His Messenger are better then what you or me or anyone feels. remember that ... dont let your feelings run over what Allah has sent down.
wsalam
Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..
ok … you’ve got the basic belief right. But there’s another angle to look at it from.
You say that life is given by God and I agree. You say self-defence is acceptable, I agree with that too. But why is killing in self-defence acceptable? You kill the attacker don’t you? Shouldn’t that be wrong? It’s not, because you are taking the life of an aggressor to prevent that of an innocent person. Similarly, when you punish a murderer by killing him (excuse me for my sexist assumption that the murderer is a he 
), it’s a deterrent in two dimensions. First, you make sure that that person who’s psychologically capable of killing someone, doesn’t kill again. Second, his death serves as an example to others. Looking at the bigger picture, that’s saving lives.
P.S: Please don’t say that life-imprisonment is better, because you know prisons only create criminals. 
Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..
Hunk - that is why this is one of the isses I normally don't vote on, because while I cannot put a man to death and be responsible for his murder, I also do not believe that society should be responsible for feeding and housing a person who is not a part of it. Also, while I believe these things, it is hard also to reconcile with the fact that some in my family are in violent professions (police, troopers, and military).
I get so torn on this issue, but all I can say is life is life and if you take it, you are playing the role of God and nothing society can do to you or say to you will ever erase that stain.
Hana - I am not Muslim.
Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..
What you believe is what the good son of Adam p believed according to the Quran. Did you my post on the thread sura: Al Anam 108, about the story of the two sons of Adam?
regards,
bob
Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..
Bob - no I didn't. When a post gets over 2 pages before I have a chance to read it, I give up.
But thank you again.
Re: To Kill or not to kill is the issue..
From my earlier post:
Here are descriptions of the sons of Adam, one who obeys and the other who doesnt obey Allah:
[al-Ma’idah 5:27] But recite unto them with truth the tale of the two sons of Adam, how they offered each a sacrifice, and it was accepted from the one of them and it was not accepted from the other. (The one) said: I will surely kill thee. (The other) answered: Allah accepteth only from those who ward off (evil).
[al-Ma’idah 5:28] Even if thou stretch out thy hand against me to kill me, I shall
not stretch out my hand against thee to kill thee, lo! I fear Allah, the Lord of the
Worlds. [al-Ma’idah 5:29] Lo! I would rather thou shouldst bear the punishment of the sin against me and thine own sin and become one of the owners of the fire. That is the reward of evil-doers. [al-Ma’idah 5:30] But (the other’s) mind imposed on him the killing of his brother, so he slew him and became one of the losers. [al-Ma’idah 5:31] Then Allah sent a raven scratching up the ground, to show him how to hide his brother’s naked corpse. He said: Woe unto me! Am I not able to be as this raven and so hide my brother’s naked corpse ? And he became repentant.
The rest of the post:
[QURAN 16.125]. Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and have disputations with them in best manner; surely your Lord best knows those who go astray from His path, and He knows best who follow the right way.
[Hud 11:118] And if thy Lord had willed, He verily would have made mankind one nation, yet they cease not differing,
[at-Taubah 9:6] And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.
18:29 The Truth is from your Lord; so let him who please believe and let him who please disbelieve.
10:99 And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers? 100 And it is not for a soul to believe except by Allah’s permission; and He casts uncleanness on those who will not understand.
[al-Qasas 28:55] And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: “To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant.”
[Luqman 31:15] But if they strive with thee to make thee ascribe unto Me as partner that of which thou hast no knowledge, then obey them not. Consort with them in the world kindly, and follow the path of him who repenteth unto Me. Then unto Me will be your return, and I shall tell you what ye used to do –
[al-Furqan 25:63] The (faithful) slaves of the Beneficent are they who walk upon the earth modestly, and when the foolish ones address them answer: Peace;
**
In my opinion, those who are not trying to emulate the good son of Adam have a disease in their hearts and it is pointless to argue with them.
The Quran permits societies to form laws with punishments that dont exceed the crime. However, then it empowers the individual victim/ his family to choose between retribution, partial retribution or complete forgiveness. For example, in the case of murder, eye for an eye means death. If the victim’s family wishes it can seek death. However, the Quran also allows the victim’s family to seek something less, such as token blood money, a jesture of good will etc. Those who choose to forgive will receive forgiveness from Allah on judgement day.
regards,
bob