no no… we want fun again ..
So gupshup and exposition of other devient sects is out-of-session?
In other words, gupshup is laying an egg till that time!!! Uuff, I should get more people to oppose this not-so-needy curfew.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif
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V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**
----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----
[This message has been edited by The Watcher (edited January 18, 2001).]
Owing to the popularity of the moratorium, and the approval by the majority of the members, i am extending this moratorium for an ‘indefinite amount of time’. This curfew will be in effect till a significant majority opposes it.<<
… hence those members whose bread-and-butter was such topics, better start posting other, more useful, more informative and more interesting stuff here.
GfQ,
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This is great.Good work.
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Ahem Watcher…
Yeah, good stuff GFQ. Why do I get the impression of 'The Iron Lady' when your name is mentioned??
I object to the decision, your honour! :serious:
The bigger problem is/was that the same group of members keep on posting repetitive information, and enagaging in mud-slinging on each other.
Every time one members decides to "expose" the "deviant" ways of the other sect, he was derided by the "other team", and he attacks them in retaliation, and so this goes on for a while. The thread is closed. And these same people again start a new thread, filled with the SAME info. Again this mud-slinging starts. There seems to be no end to the this.
If you folks can work out a mutually agreed code of conduct, I am sure the mod won't have to work so hard to keep on deleting repetitive, inflammatory posts. We hope for self-regulation. This was sadly ignored in the 'Religion Forum'.
So unless members, themselves, show more responsibility and maturity, administrative action will continue to be taken to ensure a congenial, informative, friendly and decent discussion here.
And please remember, there is a zero-tolerance policy in effect.
If devient group is being exposed of their beliefes in the light of Quran and Sunnah with comparison to their religion books/hadith books, than the “other” side should not have any problem with that.
But some people just cannot accept or handle the truth, even if some one posts stuff from their sources and their “holy-shots” they just keep argueing like morons without having any knowledge of their books and what kinda disbelief and unislamic practices those books have to offer. Those same books contradict with the teachings of Quran.
There is only one way to Islam. There is no shia way or no sunni way, the ONE and ONLY way is QURAN and SUNNAH and if any of those groups are doing something in the religion which is not in it, than it must be exposed and brought to light among the masses who might not know about them.
If we all remain quiet and do nothing, the deviant groups would continue their unislamic activities on the name of Islam.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
Take it easy now.
V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**
----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----
Thats a superb decision.May God show the righteous path to Deviated ppl meanwhile.
I strongly disagree with imposing an indefinite maratorium on sect related discussion. It is a good way of learning about other people's views. whether you like them or not.
I think it should be continued, but
there should be a just one rule of conduct.
1)No personal attacks. Calling someone deviant/kafir/infidel because of their faith is one of them. It promotes hate and counter attacks.
I believe if everyone agrees on this rule, and follows it, we can continue to have interesting and knowledgeable discussions without mudlinging.
Belief is not what mind possesses, it is what possesses the mind!
>>If devient group is being exposed of their beliefes in the light of Quran and Sunnah with comparison to their religion books/hadith books, than the "other" side should not have any problem with that.<<
You are mistaken that the "other side " should not have any problem. You have been posting on this forum for many months now. Every group or belief has a justification for everything. This is a given. No one is a fool, even if you think of them as such. If you hope to change their beliefs, criticizing them or their beliefs will not achieve the desired objective.
You have been using this forum to propagate your thinking and your ideology. This is fine.
Others have the same right.
You may think you are right.
Others think they are right too.
Unless all of you agree to disagree, this "moratorium" shall continue.
These public forums are not to be used for REPITITIVE, INFLAMMATORY posts. This goes for all groups.
Unfortunately, at this point, there seems to be little justification to change the policy and allow rampant mud-slinging amongst members.
Thank you Pristine
**
Can we have a referendum or poll?
I suggest some rules of conduct;
1) Do not call anybody kafir/infidel/deviant
2)No personal attacks
3)No repetitions of same posts
4)Restrict the length of posts not mare than 1 1/2 size of screen.
**
Belief is not what mind possesses, it is what possesses the mind!
If you do something OUT SIDE THE CIRCLE of ISLAM(QURAN and SUNNAH) DO NOT NAME IT ISLAM!!!
If someone tells you something that what you are doing is NOT supported by QURAN and SUNNAH, you should consider what quran and sunnah has to say and leave the deveiated path. If you think, you are right, does that mean you ignore what Quran and Sunnah has to say?
For Example: Quran says Dead people cannot help you, ask only Allah for help only call upon Allah for help. But some stupid, morons would still ignore the verses of Quran and go for the sayings of their Imaams, which is deviated and NOT part of Islam.
If you do not have knowledge of your own religious books, and when you find out what is in those books from someone else, and you get mad, its you problem not anybody elses. Its YOU who has a problem dealing with the TRUTH, the painful truth that comes after it!!!
Take it easy.
*V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*
----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----
>>If you do something OUT SIDE THE CIRCLE of ISLAM(QURAN and SUNNAH) DO NOT NAME IT ISLAM!!!<<
Actually you can't stop it, can you? You can rant and you can rave... but you just can't stop ppl from believing what they choose to believe.
>>If someone tells you something that what you are doing is NOT supported by QURAN and SUNNAH, you should consider what quran and sunnah has to say and leave the deveiated path.<<
Your problem is that you think what you know is the ONLY truth and the ONLY explanation. As I said before, every major belief is (somehow) proved from the religious text, one way or the other.
For example, according to shias their faith is the really right faith proved from the Quran and Sunnah. Ahmadis consider their beliefs to be the really correct ones. Barelvis consider themselves the true lovers of Allah and Muhammad (SAWW) and think everything they do is according to Islamic sharia. Agha Khanis do the same. Bahai'i follow the same quran and sunnah. EVERYONE believes they are right. You don't have the SOLE OWNERSHIP of this esteemed title.
Your responsibility according to Islam is to present your views, which you consider the truth. Present them politely, honestly, in an understandable manner. If the other person chooses to accept them, Alhamdollilah. If he does not, leave him for his own deeds. You are not responsible for everyone.
I am not advocating any one group, but the common decency on public forums requires each member to recognize the rights of others to have their own belief and opinion. We are not all created from a single mold, and, thus, don't think alike.
You and me can present our opinion and then leave it to the readers to make their own decision and conclusion. If they don't agree to your explanation and opinion, it is their right. You can not degrade them, or call them names (like you did just now, by calling them 'stupid morons'), or hurl abuses at them, or consider them foolish, just because they chose not to accept your opinion.
These are just basic, elementary etiquettes of discussion on public forums. Slamming a hammer on other members' heads (figuratively) by calling them with deregatory names is neither justified nor appreciated. Those who figure out the reality that not everyone accepts our ideology, are those who can claim to be 'mature'.
If you just need to get the steam out of your system, and insist on creating mayhem, can we suggest, you find some other forum, which is more agreeable to your way of expressing your views.
[This message has been edited by Pristine (edited January 19, 2001).]
Pristine, first of all no one is enforcing any views to anyone else. I never said I am right. All I said is that Quran and Sunnah are right and anything else, contrary to them is wrong.
There are some conditions and principles you have to meet so others can conclude that you are right. You can't just create something of your own and name it right.
Islam is a revealed, complete religon. * If you study the 4 Imaams, you will NOT see any argument between them as far as the Imaams and their early followers are concerned.
I don't have the references but I fully remember that once there was meeting between the Imaam Hanifa and Imaam Malik both of them told their followers, "if the other Imaams says something than accept his opinion on the matter and ignore mine."
Do you think, those Imaams approved of the things that many of us are doing? These Milads, and grave worshipping, and peer-fakeeri, and giyaarween sharifs on the name of saints who themselves were aherers of Quran and Sunnah and did not innovate a thing into Islam. Than you have people holding melas on the graves and doing things which have no basis in Islam what so ever, nor does any madhab approves of that. All we have is blend of hindu-jewish rituals mixed with quranic verses and people and cheap peers name it Islam.
I am not calling anyone wrong here, any madhab being it Maliki, hanafi, or anyone else. Keep that in mind. You sound like if I am trying to enforce my views on you, but that is not it.
Now as far as shias are concerned: They have not been declared non-muslims because of their extravagant love for family of the prophet and Hazrat Ali. Other wise the kinda stuff is in their hadith books is very shocking and contradictory to the QURAN!
Keep the Ahmadies out of this, they are not Muslims.
I agree with analizy, if you can handle the facts and the painful truth; we can have a peacefull discussion on anything. But see, most people do not like facts. They can't handle the TRUTH, even the truth is from their own books. Than what they try to do is create fights and divert the attention of the readers off the topic. If someone tells you so and so is written in so and so book, volume # so and so, narration # so and so, why don't you check and see if that is really true. Instead what idiots here do is that they turn to name calling and creating fights.
I know truth is insensitive to you, its painful, it hurts, but you should be able to handle the truth from your own hadith books.
Again, I have no problem with presenting facts and having and good productive discussion with anyone. As long as it is clean and it does not turn into some fight or name calling just because you have no authentic proofs to reply back.
Take it easy.
*V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*
----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----*
As I said there is only ONE way to ISLAM, there is ONLY ONE WAY OF ISLAM! THis hadith confirms that:
"Allaah’s Messenger (pbuh) drew a line with his hand and said, “This is the straight path of Allaah.” He then drew lines to its right and to its left and said, “These are the other paths, which represent misguidance and that at the head of each path sat a devil inviting people to it (path).” He then recited, “And verily, this is My straight path, so follow it, and follow not (other) paths, for they will separate you away from His path.”
(Reported by Ahmad, an-Nasaa’ee and ad-Daarimee and collected in Miskhaat ul-Masaabih, Vol 1, Hadith #166, Arabic-English Translation)
Talking about everyong being right and having the right to their beliefes, read this hadith:
“Indeed those who were before you, from the people of the book (Jews and Christians) split into seventy sects, and this religion will split into seventy three; seventy two will go in to the hell fire, and one of them will go to paradise, and it is the Jamaa`ah.”
(Abu Dawud, vol 3, Hadith #4580, English Translation)
[The term Jamaa`ah was explained by the companion `Abdullaah ibn Mas`ood (radhiallaahu `anhu) as meaning that which agrees with the truth. He said in his famous statement, “The jamaa`ah is that which agrees with the truth, even if it is a single person.” (Reported by ibn Asaakir in Tareekh Dimashq - Arabic)]
Take it easy.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**
----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----
[This message has been edited by The Watcher (edited January 20, 2001).]
Dear Moderators, pleeeease don’t waste your preious time on convincing ppl( like The watcher) who are fixated and probably petro dollared, Because they are not gonna be changed. God has put seals on their hearts and minds.They think they are the interpretor of Holy Quran and Sunnah but they don’t adopt it themselves.They are hollow drums who sound a lot without gravity. These are the same ppl who totally contradict with thier words and actions.
So again pleeease do whatever is best for the forum, As I think its a place to unite ppl not to divide. Keep it healthy and alive.
Shukriya.
There is a flock of folks here all revolving in their own little circles, oblivious to the obvious and blacked out to the true capibilities this forum holds. Something can finally drive a general consensus out of u all in the form of an agreement.
What is the purpose of this forum? Is it to promote your own little sect? If that is the case, then that tells a lot about your sect (let it be which ever, barailvi'ism, shi'ahism and what not) if it needs the help of a user friendly internet site in order to spread and expand. Is it to mud-sling on fellow members? If that is your reason for coming to this forum, if the only way to convince others of your beliefs is to pull their seven generations before and after into the discussion, then that calls to question the credibility and accuracy of your faith, . If you come here to feel good about what you believe in, I'd say your belief is driving strength from the wrong source cuz the only things which happen on this forum are the ones being described above, nothing else.
Some people argue that everyone thinks they are right, therefore, they are. There is a huge difference between thinking that you are right and actually being right. There is only one right and wrong. And that's how it will always be. Righteousness and wrongfulness don't have categories. Bluntly speaking, I could care less what anyone else believes. Guidance comes only and only from that Divine Source sitting up there. We can all try to point out the mistakes, but elimination of mistakes and false beliefs can be accomplished only and only by one who is willing to take on the responsibility of correcting themselves. Do not be so stern in your faith that you can't hear your own self speaking. A true faith is only one which continues to search for greater truth. It's a never-ending search cuz process of growth is a lifetime journey and Islam is a religion full of eternal knowledge which can never come to a halt.
Have u noticed why this forum is losing traffic and interest? Have it ever crossed your minds why people u mud-sling as wahabis, never bother to answer your "reasonable and decent" queries? It's because righteouness needs no defense. The persecuted side is usually the right one. Think of that statment and you will realize what you are doing.
There are folks here, who question the character and decisions of Islamic figures. Tell me how many of u have Ayeshas sitting at your home? How many of you are or have females who can produce great scholars like Hazrat Abu Huraira or Hazrat Abdullah Bin Abbas (PBUT)? How many of you have been true to the religion like Hazrat Abu Bakr (PBUH) to the point where u were named Sideeq? How many of you like Hazrat Umer (PBUH) can strengthen Islam to the point where u would be called Farooq (farq karnay wala) and are so staunch in your faith that you make Shaitan despise you? How many of you like Hazrat Usman (PBUH) are Zun Naurain (married to two daughters of the Prophet {SAW}) and have contributed etenally to Islam, financially and morallly? How many of you have fought left and right with the Prophet (SAW) like Hazrat Ali (PBUH) has and are called Shayr e Khuda? When u can accomplish all that, and have raised yourself above and beyond these great men then u can come and ask why they made the choices they did.
Sometimes it seems there is no purpose to this forum. If a non muslim comes in here he/she will not be able to see anything other than a divided community who is unaware of even general etiquettes of addressing others. People who call themselves studied scholars, people who claim to be reasonable yet they do nothing other than dividing sect, naming sects, indulging in nothing other than emotional talk and verbal garbage. People who twist the Words of Allah just to prove they are right, to them it is more important to prove one way or other that their correctness rather than what Allah said. Nauzobillah! Disrespecting Islamic figures, mud slinging on fellow muslims that is how you are showing your faith. Good going.
Faith is not based on authority, and faith is not won by force. God is not impressed with scars you instill on His beloved figures. Seeing this state of muslim men and women, one can figure out why our ummah failed to ever reproduce Abu Bakrs, Umers, Usmans, and Alis. The best way to prove faith in God is to express it in every day life. That's exactly what the great Islamic figures did. They are our forefathers and mothers who have sacrificied their lives, their peace, themselves and their families so oncoming generations (us) can have awareness of the great blessing in the form of Islam. And this is the kind of appreciation we have for them? Don't just know your faith show your faith. It is easier to claim to be standing for truth rather than acting upon it. Don't follow where the crowd, or the world may lead. Follow Allah, truthfulness, instead, to where there is no path and leave a trail. That's what being a true Muslim is all about.
Salamz! I think people like The Watcher and myself are not out to talk dirty abt other sects. I am personally very open minded on such issues. Even in Quran you can find ayat saying that if you find something a bit diffuse/ambigious/dubious than dont just beleive in it without questioning and researching, as He has put some sort of logic behind every matter or problem.
I think that the purpose of this forum is exactly to do what has been done until now, to discuss religion. However personal attacks and subjective meanings should not occur, even though this becomes diffucult in times. And y should such things be looked upon so severely? Such attacks often happen in other threads too? But arent questioned or commented there?
How can I remain inactive when someone is talking degradingly abt the holy wife (Hazrat Aysha) of Rasule Allah (PBUH), and consequently question the character of The Holy prophet himself ??
One more thing I wonder abt is why none of the members of these devient sects step forward to oppose this moratorium so they can justify their beleifs?? If The watcher is eager to justify his beleifs so what is the problem? I think it is healthy to have discussions on such topics so we can find what path is right and what is wrong.
These discussions are organized into threads anyway. People who dont like these type of discussions can simply avoid such threads ? Freedom of speech ?? I think that the mods in this forum shouldn't restrict the topics beeing discussed, if its not of extreemly explicit character.