Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

Re: Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

The mystique of Tipu is that each side (approvers and disapprovers of Tipu) have their own arguments and papers to buttress their claims. But how does one measure a ruler or a political figure? By one yardsticK-'Did he do justice to the trust placed upon him by HIS people?'.

And the answer to this is-Tipu in every single way discharged his duties to MYSORE and ensured that Mysore was among or perhaps the most prominent independent state till the latter 1790s. So just as Durrani was a father figure to the Afghans but not for the Punjabis and Marathas, Shivaji to the Marathas but not to the Bengalis or the people of Central India, Tipu is one for the Mysoreans and not for the rest of India. Certainly not for the people of the Carnatic or Kerala.

Now about the temple destruction part, a number of temples were brought down in the Carnatic and Malabar, churches too in Kerala, but we have more letters from him giving grants to temples than temples pulled down. So he was a moody personality. Quick to anger and direct in approach.

As for the ASIs list of the 3 temples pulled down by him, I spent a whole day in Harihar in the Harihareswara temple and even read the book printed by the temple authorities in Kannada, who did not write one single word against Tipu in the book . The mention of the temple destruction is by the Adil Shahis of Bijapur who broke the main deity and dumped it into the temple tank which was retrieved during Tipu's reign(not necessarily with his help or knowledge). But yes, Harihar was at the crossroads of Mysore-Maratha wars on account of its location I need to see the detailed account of the Tipu-Harihareswara episode to believe it.

All in all he was harsh to his enemies and good to his friends, his forces definitely did damage to temples and churches, he definitely did write letters extolling his conversion claims(numbers ludicruously exaggerated but incidents being true). But he was also benign to the Mysoreans.

Re: Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

I also have the book printed by the harihareswara temple trust in my possession and will gladly scan the contents to anyone who wishes to read it. The language is Kannada of course.

Re: Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

^ is it possible if you could give a gist of the book for us who can't read Kannada?

Re: Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

are you south indian or kannadiga ?

there is no such thing as people of carnatic.carnatic is music style of south india just like hindustani

if you mean't karnataka then mysore is made of kannada people.

i do agree about tipu being hero to one section of people and villan to another section

Re: Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

This is the communalism due to which Pakistan was created to begin with.

Re: Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

Ali there is faction of society who consider Raja Dahir a hero and Bin Qasim a villian. What would that lead to us?

Re: Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

^ Who are those? nationalists? I have not seen even a single person in Punjab in favour of Ranjeet Singh or against the Afghan invaders and Aurangzeb.

Re: Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

Besides nationalists, general civil society don't respect much invaders in Sindh

You don't hear much against invaders in Pakistani Punjab, because they taught a distorted version of history in our schools, but you would find resentment about these invaders in Indian Punjab. Afghan invaders were highly detested by the sufis of that time. Baba Bulleh Shah did poetry against Ahmed Shah Abdali, who is father of nation in Afghanistan.

Re: Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

Though it is not pertinent to the discussion but by virtue of it being a harmless question; I am a South Indian and from Shivamogga, Karnataka!

The carnatic was a region comprising parts of todays Southern Mysore and most importantly the eastern and central parts of todays Tamil Nadu that were under the Nawab of the Carnatic - Chanda Sahib and his later descendents, both of whom Haidar and Tipu despised and the British propped up.

The wars fought in that region between Mysore aided by the French against the Nawab aided by the British were a part of the wars there commonly called the CARNATIC WARS. Yes, this term is of British nomenclature but there is no 'South-Indian' word for that particular region in the context of wars fought there.

As for Tipu being a hero to one section and villain to another, I agree. But both these sections comprise people from all faiths.

Re: Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

Are there any Muslims, who consider Tipu as villain?

Re: Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

Absolutely Ali. It details the foundation of the temple right from Hoysala times in the 10-11th C. A.D till the present. Of particular interests are the edicts put up in stone in the temple courtyard of all important dynasties - Hoysala, Vijaynagar, Keladi Nayakas, local Palegar, etc and legends associated with the temple at different time periods.

The book extols the Marathas who restored the temple after it was savagely ransacked by the Adil Shahi rulers. It mentions wars in the vicinity between Muslim forces and the Marathas. This would be Bijapuri forces at the fag end of that Kingdom gainst the rising might of the Marathas. There is a mention of the Muslim interlude (Haidar-Tipu) in Mysore but not one word of any harm being caused to the temple from them.

Re: Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

Yes several Muslims or rather Muslim groups. Not as a 'villain' per se. But someone who held views opposite to theirs. Tipu threw the Mahdivis out of his realm and proposed sending an army to Mecca to fight the rising Wahabi threat there. Even today, much of the local Mysore population (much, not all) does not attend the annual Urs there as they believe he cannot be called a Hazrath though they agree upon his 'Shahadath'.

Most muslims around Mysore belong to the Deobandi strain and not Barelvi.

Re: Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

Thats really interesting.

Generally there is a perception that Wahabism in Arabia started in early 20th century, but actually its history goes as far back as early 18th century.

Re: Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

Olikara, ur profile says that U r from shimoga in Karnataka but the bold part is a major blooper that is not made easily by any south Indian. :DWill give u the benefit of doubt. I would also like to see the temple book in Kannada if possible. I have never visited Harihareshwara temple and since I can speak and read the language I would like to read about it. Can U please scan it ? Atleast a couple of pages pertaining to its history would suffice. U can mail them to me if U don’t want to put it up here.

On a side note, I found this article or Tipu which seemed OK IMHO

Early in 1990, the BJP, it will be remembered, sought a court injunction to prevent the screening in India of a television serial entitled ‘The Sword of Tipu Sultan’ based on a novel first published in the mid-70s authored by Bhagwan S Gidwani. A case was made out that Tipu was not secular as was generally believed and doesn’t deserve to be an icon. Once again Tipu is in the news with Karnataka’s Minister of Higher Education, D H Shankaramurthy questioning Tipu’s Kannada credentials, considering that he used Persian, and not Kannada as the language of administration. Once again a fierce controversy has been raised. And the liberal, secular Hindu intellectual has demanded the dismissal of Shankaramurthy, with the leader of the Janata Dal (secular) H D Deve Gowda screaming that he will not allow the secularism of the JD(S) Karnataka government being polluted. One doesn’t know whether to laugh or cry. The deep tragedy is not the secular standing of a Tipu Sultan, an Aurangazeb or a Ghazni Mohammad but the refusal of both Hindus and Muslims to come to terms with India’s past.
Let us face it: for almost a millennium, give or take a couple of hundred years, India has been ruled in different parts of the country, but in one continuous stream, by Islamic conquerors and their successors, which has caused a deep psychological scab in the Hindu psyche that starts bleeding at the slightest provocation. Our liberal secularists have always failed to understand that. Primarily they refuse to face up to the past, which only worsens matters. To seem to be secular, the Hindu liberal needs to stand by Muslim kings and nawabs, like Romilla Thapar being apologetic about the destruction of Somnath Temple by Ghazni Mohammad. It is a mind-set that is hard to understand.
In the North, especially, Rajput rulers would give their daughters in marriage to the Mughal rulers to buy security, which was clever, but demeaning as a tactic. Indeed, in Tipu’s large zenana were, in addition to purchased slaves from such places as Istanbul and Georgia, two sisters of the Raja of Coorg and a niece of none other than Purnaiya, who was Tipu’s Diwan. It is a little known fact. But par for the course.
We are talking of feudal times. Like many rulers, Hindu or Muslim, Tipu had his faults which are invariably glossed over by our secularists. Tipu was enigmatic, to say the least. A Karnataka MLC, Prof B K Chandrashekar is reported to have said that Shankaramurthy need to know history. Indeed everyone should, including Chandrashekar himself. One can recommend to him two excellent books, one written by Praxy Fernandes, a South Kanara Roman Catholic (and a former IAS officer, 1947 cadre) entitled ‘The Tigers of Mysore’ and another written by an Australian scholar, Kate Brittlebank, entitled ‘Tipu Sultan’s Search For Legitimacy’, with the sub-title ‘Islam and Kingship In A Hindu Domain’. Both are brilliantly researched and are as objective as one can expect. Both give high marks to Tipu for his religious tolerance, for his respect for all religions, for his reverence to the head of the Shringeri Mutt, recounting how Tipu sent a silver palanquin and a pair of silver chauris to the Sarada Temple.
This must be compared to reports in the Mysore Archaeological Survey quoted by Brittlebank that at least three Hindu temples within his realm had been destroyed by Tipu: the Harihareshwar Temple at Harihar which was ‘apparently plundered and part of it converted into a mosque’, the Varahswami Temple in Seringapatam and the Odakaraya Temple in Hospet is said to have been destroyed’. Does that mean that Tipu was a Muslim fanatic? Hardly. Praxy Fernandes mentions Christians who were close to Tipu, like Father Joachim Miranda, who was a personal friend of Hyder Ali, Fr Francis Xavier, a parish priest, a mysterious Kanara Roman Catholic who apparently became the chief of Tipu’s royal household and a Salvador Pinto who was employed as Tipu’s personal munshi and who was reported to have wielded a great influence on the Sultan. But none of them could prevent Tipu from uprooting between 60,000 to 100,000 Catholics from Kanara for their alleged support to the British, and dragging them to Seringapatam, to be imprisoned in dungeons. Hundreds are reported to have died on route. The trouble is that Tipu, like any coin, was two-faced. One face, defended strongly by the secularists, was that of a benevolent ruler who, in the language currently in use, was a model of sarva dharma samabhava.
The other, uglier face, is that of a tyrant who could treat his enemies ruthlessly by ‘whipping, the cutting off of limbs, ears and noses, as well as castration, forcible circumcision and hanging’. That is feudal rule. There was much that was detestable about Tipu. According to Brittlebank ‘in the Sultan’s own Dominions, his confidential servant, Raja Khan, had free access into the private apartment of any of his subjects, and could carry away any of the women, without them daring to make any opposition’. What a nice Kannadiga! Just as detestable was Tipu’s mode of giving gifts to his subordinates such as ‘widows or cast-off wives and concubines’ as if they were commodities and not human beings. Not a pleasant thought though our liberals no doubt will say that Tipu was only helping helpless women.
Tipu detested the Nairs of Kerala and especially their practice of polyandry. The Nairs refused to be brow beaten by Tipu whereupon he embarked on a jihadi, and as Fernandes writes ‘several thousand of captured Nairs were circumcised and admitted to Islam’. Admitted indeed. Fernandes writes, tongue firmly in cheek that the 'martyrdom of Nairs was not intended to be a religious persecution but a political punishment and a drive towards social reform! Ha, ha! Social reform? A man who keeps a zenana? Who gave the right to Tipu to reform Nair ethos? Like the Nairs, the Coorgis were also punished, about 70,000 of them converted to Islam.
** One can only say anything about Tipu and still be correct. The truth is that Tipu was a feudal figure whose word was law. And he had many faces, kind, tolerant, benign, patriotic, examples of which are abundantly described by Fernandes and Brittlebank, but there was another Tipu who not only blatantly chose Persian as the State language, but chose to figure Caliphs, saints and Imams on his coinage, as did the British in a following era who enforced English. One supposes that Tipu can be forgiven. Tipu was a parvenu ruler of a predominantly Hindu Kingdom. He appointed Hindus to high positions just as the British did when they took over India, but for that reason, should we forget Jallianwala Bagh? His army was predominantly Muslim. Of course he fought the British, but who wouldn’t when one’s rule is in danger? His only other option was to succumb to the British like so many princes did elsewhere in India to their shame.
**
**** He declined to submit, for which all credit to him. But criticising him is not being anti-Muslim as our secularists make out. He had his shortcomings, many of them too glaring to be ignored. The point is that both Hindus and Muslims have to come to terms with their past, seeing history in the context of time. And our secularists must realise that when they try to defend the indefensible, they only raise the angst of a long-suffering Hindu population with memories of a thousand years of harsh Muslim rule.

**
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Re: Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

The part which I highlighted in the previous post of mine is what we have to think about. The rulers of history have been both benevolent and cruel but we should not gloss over or glorify their shortcomings because they belong to any particular community. India has very few kings who are truly praiseworthy like Akbar who was very tolerant for his time or Ashoka after his reformation.
Muqauwwee is a previous most mentioned about how Haider Ali saved many muslims who were being oppressed by Hindus. Maybe it is true or maybe it is not. I have not found links to confirm that but I will accept that if proper links are provided. It is possible that the oppression part was from a novel and fictionalized. But problem is when fiction is gradually incorporated as a part of history.
The TV serial "The Sword of Tipu Sultan" is one such fictionalized account of his life. It is no way historically accurate. There was a disclaimer before each episode which went like this...
"No claim is made for the accuracy or authenticity of any episode being depicted in the serial. This serial is a fiction and has nothing to do either with the life or rule of Tipu Sultan. The serial is a dramatised presentation of Bhagwan Gidwani's novel."

Re: Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

I have sent you a message asking for your mail id to which I'll send you the scan of the booklet. As far as my usage of the word 'Carnatic' is concerned, that term signified a geographical area to which I could find no comparable term.

Tipu definitely preferred Persian over Kannada as the administrative language because Persian was the language of the educated elite then and especially for a Muslim like Tipu it was important to be in conformity with this cultured elite. Incidentally the Wodeyars after their restoration in 1799 continued to use Persian in their court as well and continued to use Persian in their royal seal till as late as the early 1900s. All their letters (khareetas) even to their British overlords were in Farsi accompanied by an English and Kannada translation. This I know of till the 1860s after which I am not sure.

But please remember Farsi was only used in the royal seat at Seringapatam(Srirangapattanam if you want me to be South Indian again). The local Shanbogs, taluqdars, used to correspond in Kannada, Telugu, Tamil and scribes would translate it out in Farsi for the court. Yes, could Tipu have used kannada instead of Farsi, he very well could but did not do. Can we hold this against him? You could.

He definitely did have Hindu women in his harem. A large number of them. Marriott after the fall of Tipu made an inventory of the Zanana and writes of the Hindu women being very 'pious muslims'. Can we hold this against him? We could.

I can go an and on...

In the end, as far as Tipu's secular credentials are concerned, He was no Akbar, but neither was he an Aurangazeb. He can perhaps be place on equality with someone like Shahjehan who did demolish a few temples in anger/hate/bigotry/drunkenness/bad mood but loved his Hindu subjects as well.

I have not read anywhere about Haidar saving any 'oppressed' muslim from Hindu hands. Gidwani's 'The sword of Tipu Sultan' is a piece of fiction as is his Pakistani counterpart Nasim Hejazi's work. Both have their own separate audiences to cater to. Yes, one good thing that Gidwani's TV serial/adaptation did was to propel Tipu into the consciousness of Indians out of the Deccan(region comprising todays South India including parts of Maharashtra but excluding certain parts in Kerala )

Akbar and Ashoka were not just tolerant, they were 'Accepting'. Tipu was tolerant but not always 'Accepting'. A small but very important difference.

Re: Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

Carnatic region - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Re: Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

Aware of this but in the modern context when any one says carnatic, the first thing that comes to mind is music :slight_smile:

Re: Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

What I read is that during the rule of Tipu Sultan , the Kannada was replaced by Persian in administration and accounting. Mark Cubbon in 1934 made Kannada the lang for lower level administration. I am not aware of the Wodeyars using persian either before or after Tipu sultan. It was not in the history books when I was a student . Do U have a link to this information ? :hmmm:

Not sure if we can place Tipu sultan on par with Shah Jahan IMO, may be Haider Ali was. Tipu needed his subjects to be amenable without major revolting Tipu Sultan’s largesse to his hindu subjects did not extend to his enemies who were Hindu. That period is marked with forced conversions, forced circumscisions etc. If he had manage to supress all his hindu enemies would he then have turned his sight towards his hindu subjects? Maybe maybe not. I will agree to disagree on this matter.
At the end of the day, kingdom of mysore saw most of its progress during the lifetime and effort of Sir M Visveshwarayya, Mirza Ismail and Krishna Raja Wodeyar between 1902 and 1940. Gandhi called Krishna Raja Wodeyar a saintly king and Lord wellington called Mysore’s industrial development as “incredible”. It acheived many firsts in the whole of British India then.:slight_smile:

Re: Tipu Sultan - Hero or Villian

This is interesting info. Do u have links for this ? Would like to read more about it.