TI report-Corruption has increased since 99 coup

Another report confirming what is well known to those in Pakistan.
If other countries had not gotten more corrupt, Pak would have flown to no. 1!

What do you expect when the dictator choses people like Chaudry Shujaat as allies?

Doubtless, there will be those who continue to live in their dream world and deny it all, for their own personal reasons

Corruption has risen since ’99 coup: TI

ISLAMABAD, Dec 9: Pakistan has been ranked 142nd in this year’s Corruption Perception Index (CPI) by Transparency International.

The country’s ranking is much worse than Nigeria, Rawanda and Burundi, but slightly better than Sudan and Haiti.

Pakistan continues to remain among “the concentration of so-called failed states at the bottom of the ranking”, says the report released on the International Anti-Corruption Day on Saturday.

The country’s ranking had plummeted since 2004, when the country fell to 129th spot from 92nd in 2003. It was ranked 87th in 1999, when President Pervez Musharraf overthrew the civilian government. The ranking briefly improved after the military takeover.

Pakistan’s score on the CPI table this year was 2.1on a scale from zero to 10, with zero indicating high levels of perceived corruption. The index draws on multiple expert opinion surveys and poll perceptions of public sector corruption in 163 countries.

Transparency International said in its statement that although Pakistan had made efforts towards the strengthening of public procurement, the perception of corruption remained very high -– a situation particularly worrying given the amount of humanitarian aid pledged for reconstruction following the October 2005 earthquake.

It said a majority of people had a poor opinion of the government’s anti-corruption efforts – 60 per cent of the respondents surveyed were dissatisfied with government’s efforts, 19 per cent thought they were somewhat effective, 17 per cent had no idea and four per cent considered them to be very effective.

The survey found police to be the most corrupt department in the country, closely followed by political parties, parliament, tax and registry services, all having the same scores. Religious bodies were graded as the least corrupt in the country.

Most of the South Asian countries fared much better than Pakistan, with Bhutan ranked 32nd, India 70th, Sri Lanka 84th and Nepal 121st. Bangladesh at 156th was the only South Asian country placed below Pakistan.

India showed the greatest improvement in the region by jumping 18 spots from last year’s position.

The average score of Asian countries was 4.6.

http://www.dawn.com/2006/12/10/top4.htm

Re: TI report-Corruption has increased since 99 coup

and some people would jump om stuff without looking at what methods are used and what TI says about it

I dont blame realdeal here, in his efforts to prove his point, he is going by the word of the journalist who wrote this piece. and I guess in his zeal to get the sotry out he did not di his due diligence. It is however refreshing to see realdeal not post the TI survey that he was misinterpreting for a few months now :slight_smile:

TI survey is also a ‘perceptions’ survey, which is not just based on perceptions of people who may have an axe to grind with regimes due to political issues, but it surveys other entities as well, trading groups…external parties. it also does not have the ability to factor in recent anti corruption efforts, (or lack thereof however you want to see it)

and as far as what this mean they say, lets just hear it from the horse’s mouth shall we, i.e. the dude who like came up with the survey..

http://wwwuser.gwdg.de/~uwvw/oldwebsite/Q&A.html

*Q: What do the scores mean?

A: As indicated, the CPI does ]not measure corruption, it measures perceptions of corruption. And, as also noted, the CPI does not cover all of the countries in the world.*

*Q: Can data from one year be compared with that from a previous year?

A: This is somewhat problematic. The CPI incorporates as many reliable and up-to-date sources as possible. One of the drawbacks to this approach is that year-to-year comparisons of a country’s score do not only result from changing perceptions of a country’s performance but also from a changing sample and methodology. Some sources are not updated and must be dropped as a result, while new, reliable sources are added. With differing respondents and slightly differing methodologies a change in a country’s score cannot be attributed solely to actual changes in a country’s performance. Comparisons with the views collected in previous years can therefore be misleading. In order to reduce the number of misleading interpretations of the CPI scores, the official CPI table will not include the scores from the previous year. In practice, the sources continue to show a high degree of correlation. So, the impact of differing samples and methodologies on the outcome appears to be rather small. *

and more..

*Can country scores in the CPI 2006 be compared to those in past CPIs?

The index primarily provides a snapshot of the views of business people and country analysts for the current or recent years, with less of a focus on year-to-year trends. If comparisons with previous years are made, they should only be based on a country’s score, not its rank, as outlined above.

Year-to-year changes in a country’s score can either result from a changed perception of a country’s performance or from a change in the CPI’s sample and methodology. The only reliable way to compare a country’s score over time is to go back to individual survey sources, each of which can reflect a change in assessment. *

and
*Why isn’t there a greater change in a particular country’s score, given the strength or lack of anti-corruption reform, or recent exposure of corruption scandals?

It is difficult to improve a CPI score over a short time period. The CPI 2006 is based on data from the past two years, relating to perceptions that may have been formed even further in the past. This means that substantial changes in perceptions of corruption are only likely to emerge in the index over longer periods of time. *

anyhoo…

interestingly enough the article in dawn itself noted something that was not highlighted or bolded in the initial post, for everyone;s benefit let me do it.

Transparency International said in its statement that although Pakistan had made efforts towards the strengthening of public procurement, the perception of corruption remained very high

Re: TI report-Corruption has increased since 99 coup

nice try, but you did not say anything concrete about this particular article,just your unproved opinion.

You neither proved or disproved anything.
Long replies don't take away from the valid point's made.

You repeat TI reports for other govts, but dismiss it for your favourite.

It is obvious that for your own personal reasons, you will not believe anything that takes away from the golden view of your dictator.

Re: TI report-Corruption has increased since 99 coup

No doubt, corruption has increased so much during the reign of the American Agent in Army Uniform. This is because his team in the parlimanet consists of all those people who have been charged by his own NAB, e.g Faisal Saleh Hayat, Aftab Sherpao and scores of them, the cursed American Puppet is black mailing these criminals through the NAB cases and using them to secure his seat. Another example is his special favour towards underworld mafia MQM whose leaders were acquitted from a number of cases in order to gain their support for George P Mush.
And more than 800 street crimes every week in Karachi is a slap on the face of all supporters of this traitor of the nation who are doing their unsuccessful efforts to prove that Musharraf is helping the country to progress and that corruption is on decline.

Re: TI report-Corruption has increased since 99 coup

RealDeal

lets not forget that for your own personal views you repeated the previous TI report like a parrot closing your eyes to what was actually being said there :smiley: kinda funny you dont mention it any more.

Now, this report..how does this report align with the earlier report that showed pakistani public perception that this govt is the elast corrupt govt compared to nawaz and benazir?

now, that was a TI report from this year too, and the margin of difference in Pakistani public’s opinion was huge, i recall around 48 percent beleived BB to be most corrupt, 47 believed nawaz tr be most corrupt at 3/17% believed Musharaff to be most corrupt.

Then there is this report, which is a poll of polls and factors in ‘perceptions’ of other entities,

Oh and its not my unproved opinion that I am listing there but statements from TI itself about the weakness in their own ratings system because it is perceptions and not reality, and that year to year comparison are not correct. Not my words, not my agenda, but TI’s own words.

go read it again, take off your blinders this time and then come and talk. :slight_smile:

and while u are at it do try to reconcile the report you used to parrot here and this report, from teh same agency… and figure out why there is a conflict in assessments. Let me give you a hint… it has to do with organizations and groups whose ‘opinion’ factors in.

Re: TI report-Corruption has increased since 99 coup

oh yeah amd just on case the selective memory has failed here are the numbers from TI survey that you used to share :)

out of 100 people

48.7 thought govt of benazir was most corrupt
43.3 thought govt of Nawaz was most corrupt
3.17 thought govt of musharaf was most corrupt

do focus on the difference in methodology of the two surveys.

I am more than willing to accept that the perceptio index has gone down to 2.1 which is low. although Pakistan has never been in the 3 area, so we are talking differences of .5 or .6.

as long as :) .....

you acknowledge that the TI report that came out showed that 3.17% people believed that This regime was the most corrupt, versus 48.7 that thought benazir was most corrupt and 43.3% thought nawaz was the most corrupt.

Re: TI report-Corruption has increased since 99 coup

TRD, bas kar chaudhry bas kar! lol

Re: TI report-Corruption has increased since 99 coup

spock can u translate this into urdu, punjabi, sindhi, baluchi, saraiki and puhsto etc for others benefit, the words are from the guy who basically came up with the whole dang thing :slight_smile:

**http://wwwuser.gwdg.de/~uwvw/oldwebsite/Q&A.html

*year-to-year comparisons of a country’s score do not only result from changing perceptions of a country’s performance

but

also from a changing sample and methodology.

Some sources are not updated and must be dropped as a result, while new, reliable sources are added.

With differing respondents and slightly differing methodologies a change in a country’s score cannot be attributed solely to actual changes in a country’s performance.

Comparisons with the views collected in previous years can therefore be misleading.

In order to reduce the number of misleading interpretations of the CPI scores, the official CPI table will not include the scores from the previous year ***

Re: TI report-Corruption has increased since 99 coup

As you can see from their replies, they clearly don’t want to believe their dictator can do anything wrong. How can someone claiming to be non-biased believe a person who chooses the most corrupt politcians as partners, to be running a honest govt…notice they ignore this point

The huge amount of time invested in their replies, trying to make excuses to fool us all shows how desperate they are to hide the growing corruption of their junta.

Let them ignore the report when they want, but bring it up when it suits them :rolleyes:

Re: TI report-Corruption has increased since 99 coup

Well! Till 2002 he was doing very well! Then he had to turn to ridiculous deomcracy due to western pressure! So he had to take in the corrupts and terrorists with him!

Before that he was ruling with very best of the people from all over the country!

Re: TI report-Corruption has increased since 99 coup

What he can do:

  1. When people keep on voting for ethinc terroists
  2. Religions fanatics
  3. Corrupt feudals
  4. And what not??

Re: TI report-Corruption has increased since 99 coup

The usual excuse.Before 9/11 brought money pouring into Pak, the country was going nowhere

Even if he was 'forced' into 'democracy', he chose the most corrupt people as his partners when he could have gone for many other more honest people, a fact that is hard to deny.

Re: TI report-Corruption has increased since 99 coup

Who are those more honest people in this parliment?

Re: TI report-Corruption has increased since 99 coup

There are many good politcians, people who actually want to help their country, many of whom could not get elected due to the 'games' of agencies.

In my hometown Karachi, the previous JI nazim was a decent man, now replaced by a thief from the MQM.

Of the politcians, people like Chaudry Shujaat are considered to be the most corrupt, a very telling fact for Mush...u can judge a man by the company he keeps.

Re: TI report-Corruption has increased since 99 coup

I myself live in Karachi! I voted for Tehrik Insaf in 2002!
You know the preivous nazim came to power in Mush' govt!
But people voted for thags of MQM in 2005! (however their vote bank declined substantially)
How he can deny them?

Same is for the chaudris! They are influential! People voted for them!

Re: TI report-Corruption has increased since 99 coup

It is meaningless to discuss corruption rankings in most of Asia, not just India or Pakistan. It is the way things are; youngsters determine career options based on bribe potential.

I used to but no longer think it has any relationship to whether you have democracy or dictatorship.

Re: TI report-Corruption has increased since 99 coup

let me repeat myself janaab.

*I am more than willing to accept that the perception index has gone down to 2.1 which is low. although Pakistan has never been in the 3 area, so we are talking differences of 0.5 or 0.6 difference at the most

as long as …

you acknowledge that the TI report that came out showed that 3.17% people believed that This regime was the most corrupt, versus 48.7 that thought benazir was most corrupt and 43.3% thought nawaz was the most corrupt. *

Re: TI report-Corruption has increased since 99 coup

The amout of time spent is to try and do a reality check on the spin people try to put. I spent a lit of time tryign to tell you that your assumptions about the previous TI report were baseless, and it took i guess about half a dozen tries before you saw the light :slight_smile:

There is no fooling ‘you all’ going on, its the words of the brains behind this survey. fine ignore them if it does not align with your agenda :stuck_out_tongue:

Re: TI report-Corruption has increased since 99 coup

Trying to spin and fool your way out of this does not help.

A report by the highly regarded Irfan Hussain of Dawn, somebody who is a lot less biased and far more credible than your fineself.

Corruption on the rise

THE Musharraf government’s proudest boast is that it has greatly reduced corruption in Pakistan. But this claim has been rudely shattered by the latest Transparency International (TI) report that shows that Pakistan, far from being cleaner today, is more corrupt than it was when the army took over in 1999.

According to a report published a week ago, we are now 142nd out of 163 countries ranked by the international watchdog body. Seven years ago, when Musharraf seized power, Pakistan was ranked 87th. So, after years of being lectured by government spokesmen about how the army was cleansing the country, and hundreds of millions being spent on the National Accountability Bureau (NAB), we find that crooks are flourishing more than ever before.

One of the principal charges against Nawaz Sharif and Benazir Bhutto was that of corruption each time they were removed through army-backed coups. This happened with such monotonous regularity in the ‘90s that as soon as a party was elected, people asking when — and not if — the government would be sacked. And of course, there was much substance to the allegations of sleaze. But surely, if they could be removed for corruption, should we not be asking why the present lot should not be made equally accountable?

When elected politicians were in office between 1989 and 1999, you could not pick up a newspaper without allegations of some scam or another. Now, such stories are few and far between despite Pakistan having made a spectacular rise up the TI annual corruption barometer. As a result, columnists, leader writers and the chattering classes generally are not constantly writing and talking about corruption. So despite the evidence, the perception — assiduously cultivated by NAB and the information ministry — is that the system is somehow more transparent and less corrupt. But this gloss does not fool anybody who has to deal with ministers and civil servants. Businessmen say they are now encountering higher demands for bribes than ever before. People with the simplest requests who visit government offices are expected to pay substantial sums as a routine cost.

So why is the media not investigating these allegations with the same zeal it displayed in the ‘90s? And this is despite the fact that there are many more private TV and radio channels today than there were seven years ago. In the pre-Musharraf days, the press was in a constant feeding frenzy, and its investigative stories were often picked up by the foreign media, reinforcing the impression that our politicians were more corrupt than their counterparts in other parts of the world. Thus, the army coup of 1999 was generally welcomed. Even well-informed journalists climbed on the bandwagon.

It is a well-known fact that intelligence agencies keep a number of journalists on their payrolls, and feed them stories maligning politicians they consider opposing the GHQ’s line. A steady stream of such innuendos and allegations can damage any reputation. The other string in the establishment’s bow is the harassment independent journalists have been subjected to. Some have been picked up, thrashed and dumped far from home. And since our courts are so emasculated, they provide little protection to individuals, or any oversight to check the abuses committed by officials and agencies. However, the Supreme Court’s stand in pressurising the government into releasing a few of the “disappeared” from a list of hundreds must be acknowledged.

The fact is that Pakistan has no monopoly on corruption, although it has been institutionalised to a remarkable degree here. In many advanced democracies, politicians have been accused of venality of one kind or another. Governments have been shaken by scandals. Public figures have resigned, or have been tried and occasionally jailed. When they have tried to hang tough, many have been defeated in elections. Through the media, the judiciary and the electoral process, they have been held accountable. Generals have not used allegations of corruption to stage coups. Had this been a tradition, Italy would have been ruled today by the army, given the many charges ex-prime minister Silvio Berlusconi is facing. And US Vice-President Dick Cheney would be in hot water over his role in assigning billions of dollars worth of government contracts to Halliburton, his old company, without inviting competitive bids.

Clearly, corruption is a fact of life we have to put up with. As long as greed is part of the human condition, we cannot eliminate it entirely. The best we can hope for is a reduction in this disease. One problem we face in poor countries is that the demand for the most basic services far exceeds supply. So to obtain what should be his by right, a person has to pay a bribe to jump the long queue of other equally deserving applicants. And when an official is faced with such a situation, he will tend to take advantage of it. This, too, is human nature. The answer lies in removing bottlenecks and making the system transparent so civil servants are less able to misuse their discretionary powers.

But above all, economic development is the key to reducing corruption. The TI barometer shows that by and large, richer countries are less corrupt as a rule. As services become universally available, and unemployment falls, there are fewer incentives to offer bribes. And with education comes a strengthening of institutions that can act as a deterrent to corruption. Of course there are many exceptions: greed knows no bounds, and in the most advanced countries, examples of corporate venality abound. However, ordinary citizens can (and do) spend a lifetime without having to pay a bribe.

Equally clearly, politically motivated anti-corruption drives that target political opponents do more harm than good.** Despite its tall claims, NAB has not reduced corruption. Rather, it has slowed down decision-making in the bureaucracy, not that it was ever very swift. And by terrorising bureaucrats, it has pushed up the bribery rate. Above all, by removing the armed forces and the judiciary from its ambit, NAB has lost whatever credibility it might have had.**

What emerges from this discussion is that at the end of the day, there is no magic wand to remove corruption from society. And the army, given its own severe problems with corruption, is the last institution to set itself up as judge, jury and hangman.

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm

Re: TI report-Corruption has increased since 99 coup

Trying to spin and fool your way out of this does not help.

dude only one spinning has been you .. recall the cut and paste of the TI report based on Pakistani People’s perceptions where it took like a dozen attempts before you were able to comprehend basic math :smiley:

and yes trying to spina nd fool does not help, you have failed.

**A report by the highly regarded Irfan Hussain of Dawn, somebody who is a lot less biased and far more credible than your fineself.

**

I have no bias. only people who find me biased are ppl who have their own biases and dont like being set straight.

haha and this clown may be highly regarded but he too has no comprehension of the report…

I have posted how to read the report … right from the people who run the whole report. I guess he did not bother to read that.

all his report is his own ‘thoughts’ and assumptions and anecdotal BS, and the only thing he has to support himself is the TI report..which he is not bothering to read properly anyways. 15 minutes on TI site could have educated him, but then he wont have a story now..would he.

so as far as his credibility goes…I can only laugh

I am posting sa1eem’s analysis here which he posted in a different thread as well, so other readers of this thread can get some perspective

I think you either did not read it, or did not understand it, but here it is again. seems like your hero Ifran hussein did not really understand or try to portray the situation in all honesty..