three problems as I see them

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1

In my opinion some thing ought to be done about these three guys and we’ll do much better long term.

Shoaib Akhtar:

His problems are very well documented. I won’t even touch the crap he spewed recently about Was and Waqar (only the two greatest bowlers that played the damn game).

Even as a player, he’s very unpreditable. One day he’ll run in and destroy the batters and the next get destroyed himself and in process screw the team badly. There have many bowlers as devestating as him but none of them have singlehandedly cost their team so many crucial matches as has Akhtar.

I still have a hard time believing what he did in the Pak-India match. Had he even conceded six per over, we could’ve been in business. And then he had the gall to go back and say that the runs weren’t enough. Dude, if 300 ain’t enough for you 325 isn’t going to be enough either. Sorry for the tangent, but to this day I can’t believe what he bowled that day.

I didn’t see today’s match so I don’t know what he did. I do know that he was bowling somewhat slower in Sri Lanka, was much more disciplined and thus, more effective. I don’t even understand what can be done with him but IMO if he’s not going to put in a match-winning performance he better not put up a match-wrecking performance either. These 60 fors and 70 fors have to end.

Imran Nazir:

This guy is a somewhat better version of Afridi. But we do not need hot heads like him in the team. Scoring a quickfire 40 and then doing sh!t for the next ten matches was so typically Imran Nazir. I don’t know who should be brought in but Nazir has to go. He’s far to indisciplined in his batting approach to be in the team.

Aamir Sohail must take all the blame for this blunder. He was brought in 'cause he’s a “fan favourite”. Well he’s certainly no favourite of mine.

Younis Khan:

For a middle order batsman to play a 100 odd ODIs and still not get a century (in my mind) is a serious problem. He’s supposed to be a really disciplined guy, team man and a future captain. But if he performs this poorly he will not earn the respect of his comrades and yet another disaster will be in the offing for Pak cricket if he’s appointed captain.

What do you folks think? Please, keep in mind that I’m talking long term not short. Throwing Shoaib and Younis out will definitely hurt us now but that might help mature Umar Gul, Shabbir and perhaps a couple of good batsmen?

2

Re: three problems as I see them

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sambrialian: *
In my opinion some thing ought to be done about these three guys and we'll do much better long term.

Shoaib Akhtar:

His problems are very well documented. I won't even touch the crap he spewed recently about Was and Waqar (only the two greatest bowlers that played the damn game).

Even as a player, he's very unpreditable. One day he'll run in and destroy the batters and the next get destroyed himself and in process screw the team badly. There have many bowlers as devestating as him but none of them have singlehandedly cost their team so many crucial matches as has Akhtar.

I still have a hard time believing what he did in the Pak-India match. Had he even conceded six per over, we could've been in business. And then he had the gall to go back and say that the runs weren't enough. Dude, if 300 ain't enough for you 325 isn't going to be enough either. Sorry for the tangent, but to this day I can't believe what he bowled that day.

I didn't see today's match so I don't know what he did. I do know that he was bowling somewhat slower in Sri Lanka, was much more disciplined and thus, more effective. I don't even understand what can be done with him but IMO if he's not going to put in a match-winning performance he better not put up a match-wrecking performance either. These 60 fors and 70 fors have to end.
[/quote]

Agree 100%, him bowling slower is alot better, he can eventually swing the ball quite a bit when bowling in 140s, he bowled the same last year in Super Challenge II.

[quote]

Imran Nazir:

This guy is a somewhat better version of Afridi. But we do not need hot heads like him in the team. Scoring a quickfire 40 and then doing sh!t for the next ten matches was so typically Imran Nazir. I don't know who should be brought in but Nazir has to go. He's far to indisciplined in his batting approach to be in the team.

Aamir Sohail must take all the blame for this blunder. He was brought in 'cause he's a "fan favourite". Well he's certainly no favourite of mine.

[/quote]

You really can't make predictions based on just one match. I think he should be given another chance, he has improved quite a bit from before but he was just unfortunate enough to get out at a very good delivery today.
Simple as that.

[quote]

Younis Khan:

For a middle order batsman to play a 100 odd ODIs and still not get a century (in my mind) is a serious problem. He's supposed to be a really disciplined guy, team man and a future captain. But if he performs this poorly he will not earn the respect of his comrades and yet another disaster will be in the offing for Pak cricket if he's appointed captain.

What do you folks think? Please, keep in mind that I'm talking long term not short. Throwing Shoaib and Younis out will definitely hurt us now but that might help mature Umar Gul, Shabbir and perhaps a couple of good batsmen?
[/QUOTE]

Sambi, I am dissappointed in you man, you have only picked out players who didn't perform well today, why don't you look at the broader picture and see how Younis Khan and Shoaib Akhtar have performed in the past 2 or 3 tournaments.
Younis Khan run wise has been our best batsman in the post world cup era. In both Sharjah and Sri Lanka, he batted from the front while Youhana failed miserably.
If you are complaining about Younis Khan's performance because of 2 ducks then other players have also had in the past gotten out on 2 ducks, Sachin Tendulkar did in Windies but he didn't get the boot.

So my question is, had Youhana batted miserably tonite, would you have included his name in the list as well?

3

I've already made my feelings clear on Shoaib in the other thread, if he performs consistently badly then chuck him out - and if he can't bowl line and length then he won't get far anyway.

As for Imran, he's played well since his recall, this is his first failure on the tour. Without a batsman capable of dominating the bowlers the pressure gets too much for following players as we saw today.

Younis Khan I'm not sure about. He's been a let down so far but maybe he can put it right on Sunday. He's not a naturally gifted player but he does play straight at least.

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yaar Umair, I've always hated Imran Nazir with a passion. There's no question about that - many people can attest to this. In my mind, if you're going to play him then what wrong has Afridi done. I prefer Afridi much more to Imran Nazir. So I didn't pick Imran Nazir 'cause of today. He can go in and get a century tomorrow but the fact remains he's very inconsistent and immature. He does not understand the importance of his wicket as an opener. He still gets carried away having struck a four or two. Is that a good sign from a batsman who's been here for a while? I hope you also know that he was dropped early in his innings. So to my mind he's not improved one bit.

Younis failed us in a lot of key matches like in the Pak-India match. and hontesly speaking I haven't been following the team that much but I'm sure that there are more talented options out there than Younis.

This might sound stupid but for me it is very important to see batsmen get centuries. This means that the batsman can push along when needed to. this is where Saeed was a champ. Even then at least admit that a player who's been playing as long as Khan should've gotten at least a couple of centuries by now? As I said this is perhaps just a silly barometer but I use it to rank batsmen.

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beleive me Sambralian! younis is a very good batsman,specially in test cricket, has the potential to play long innings just going through a phase in this series.

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Sambi
I think you are being too harsh on Imran.He played good in last match/This is the problwm with we all.Oneday a guy plays well and we make them god next day he is an evbil man.Let us have some patience and see how he does in this whole series.I definilty feel that this guy has potential and with little bit of guidance from Javed he could become a great asset.Droping him before the worldcup itself was a mistake.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sambrialian: *
yaar Umair, I've always hated Imran Nazir with a passion. There's no question about that - many people can attest to this. In my mind, if you're going to play him then what wrong has Afridi done. I prefer Afridi much more to Imran Nazir.

[/QUOTE]

He's got his flaws but to compare him with Afridi is frankly ridiculous. Afridi is limited in his strokeplay whereas Imran can play any shot in the book. he looks like a batsman and unlike Afridi who can only slog medium pacers or slow bowlers, you'll quite often see Imran tearing into genuine quicks as well.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mr Xtreme: *

He's got his flaws but to compare him with Afridi is frankly ridiculous. Afridi is limited in his strokeplay whereas Imran can play any shot in the book. he looks like a batsman and unlike Afridi who can only slog medium pacers or slow bowlers, you'll quite often see Imran tearing into genuine quicks as well.
[/QUOTE]

Bilkul sahi.There is no comparision between 2. Afridi playes good ining(score > 20 ) once in 20 matches.Imrna is definitly better than that.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sambrialian: *

Younis failed us in a lot of key matches like in the Pak-India match. and hontesly speaking I haven't been following the team that much but I'm sure that there are more talented options out there than Younis.

[/QUOTE]

Younis didnt fail in Pak-India match, he made quick 30-0dd alongwith Rashid Latif. And he has played cruicial innings in big matches, just recently in traingular final. And one agsint Sri lanks in Sharjah. But yes he needs to be a lot more consistent.

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I dont really like shoiab akhtar at all. When is the guy going to learn that line and length are more important than speed.

I would love to see him go but at the same time the guy has the fire power to blast an opposition out of the game and thats the hope that we keep on clinging onto. I prefer umar gull. He is an excellent bowler.

I would say imran nazir is naturally attacking and is better than afridi. He should be allowed to play his natural game. Younis khan is sensible and has performed in the past when the side has failed. So lets give these guys one more chance and get umar gul in and shoaib out.

11

I am not a statistics person, as frankly speaking, statistics hide as much as they tell you. But after reading this thread, I did go and check out Younis Khan's ODI career statistics. And, honestly, I am disappointed.

Now, don't get me wrong. ODI cricket has some unique dynamics. For example a late order batsman, however talented, can not really score big runs. Can have a good S/R, but low average. But for a batsman who came in early in the innings (#3 or 4) for a long time, and knowing that our unstable opening partnerships means, for the most part that #3 is practically an opener, to have never crossed the magical 3 figure score in 81 innings, may not be a big deal for a mediocre player. However, Younis is not claimed to be a mediocre player. He is supposed to be better than good.


ONE-DAY INTERNATIONALS
 (including 20/06/2003)
                      M    I  NO  Runs   HS     Ave     SR 100  50   Ct  St
Batting & Fielding   85   81  12  2185   90   31.66  70.87   0  17   41   0

This is not an indictment, merely a point that he should pick up his game a few notches, from where he is. Failing in one or two or a few matches here and there is not really a big deal. However, one must be capable of playing big innings. Getting 40's and 50's is not good enough for a player who is the back bone of our batting line-up. He should aim for 80's, 90's and 100+ as much as possible. He does have 17 50's though. That he failed to convert any of them into a 100 is surprising, and a little disappointing.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *


ONE-DAY INTERNATIONALS
 (including 20/06/2003)
                      M    I  NO  Runs   HS     Ave     SR 100  50   Ct  St
Batting & Fielding   85   81  12  2185   90   31.66  70.87   0  17   41   0

.
[/QUOTE]

faisal! this is the record of Sachin Tendulkar b4 he started opening for india

           Mat  Runs  HS   BatAv 100  50   W    BB  BowlAv 5w  Ct St

filtered 76 2109 84 32.95 0 17 21 4/34 56.61 0 20 0

now imagine if India had oppted to put Sachin out of team at that time?

What everyone sees in Younis is a player who has the capibility to do well at the higer level of game, its just matter of time with him now.

And if this record is so dissappointing then who should we play beside him, i mean if u have any other player to try.?

13

On 2nd thought ..I think Nikema has a point.Here is sachin



Position             Mat    I  NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3     Ave 100  50   0
Opening              204  204  14  9416 186* 152  146   49.55  31  44   8
3rd position           6    6   1    57  21   14    8   11.40   0   0   0
4th position          55   55   7  1838 140* 113  105*  38.29   3  13   3
5th position          36   36   8   797  82*  54*  53   28.46   0   5   3
6th position           3    3   0    91  36   31   24   30.33   0   0   0
7th position           1    1   0    20  20    -    -   20.00   0   0   0

But then there is big class difference.But I definitly think converting 50s to 100 is an issue and he should learn from it.
Also Sachin has luxury of good openers around him when he was playing down so he never got many overs to bat where as Younis is always there in first 10 overs thanks to Afridis and Nazirs.

14

I dont see why scoring a century is important. I mean Younis Khan's average might not be outstanding but it is failry decent. When in flow he is treat to watch. It might be a tough decision but I think dropping/resting Younis for the next match and bringing Misbah would not be such a bad idea. It might not be too good an idea for my fantasy team but I think it would be a wise decision to take.

A comparison between Imran Nazir and Afridi is crazy. Imran Nazir is a BATSMAN. Afridi was something else. I agree Imran has his weak spots but he has shown enough signs of brilliance that persisting with him is not a bad option. He will mature with time and can turn out to be a very classy batsman. A little guidence, a little more exposure, a little more faith in him and I am sure we will see an improvement. He has a little problem with his footwork and big problem with his temprament. But you can hardly blame him for the temprament part after you ask him to open with Afridi in so many innings. I think after watching Afridi play Imran tried to hit out on every ball too not realising he is a much better batsman than that.

Shoiab Akhtar is just unpredictable. You cant really call him a bad bowler. He has good strike rate, a good average and an economy rate somewhere close to 4.50. For fast bowler thats not bad. He brags to be a much better bowler then he really is. He certainly is not a mediocre bowler. He just needs to put more thought into his bowling. Wasim Akram was not just a talented/good bowler, he was a smart bowler. Shoiab needs to apply some of that smartness into his game. If you are getting spanked all over the ground it doesnt mean you should try to bowl faster. Sometimes cutting down the speed with surprise the batman too specially from someone as quick as Akhtar.

15

Salaam,

I agree with Umair. Performance from one match doesn't merit questioning these guys why they are still on the team.

Shoaib Akhter.

No one will argue what you are saying. Especially his latest comments about his own team in favor of those Australia loozers was pretty bad i thought. It goes againt team unity. Something needs to be done with him. I still think we need him for the future. But if he is a virus on the team than we are better off axing the fool right now. I still think his ability. He is a bowler when he has his head in the game he can give you a dominating performance. Also you guys didn't mention that he can put up some good runs too.

Imran Nazir,

He is inconsistent. Justl like every damn player on the team. Name one player on this team who isn't inconsistent. And a player becomes consistent when he constantly fails and learns from his own mistakes. if we demote Nazir then someone else will come and fail. I think he's done pretty good on this tour, what happened yesterday could happen to anyone on the team.

Younis Khan,

No way. I don't agree with what you are saying. Scoring a century will come. But without his century he still has a pretty solid average considering he was promoted to the top order recently. No dought he has been failing. I am sure he will come back strong next match.

Come on guys yesterdays' match wasn't a surprise to anyone. I don't know why you guys are acting surprised. It was a dissappointment. But we know this is what the Pakistani team bring to the table.

16

If the team is in "re-building" process, its important to let Shoaib Akhtar play and show what he is capable of. He ruined Sri Lankan tourny, he cost (alongwith others) today's match too, let him stay in a few more games to see whether he can change his habit. I didn't want to see in the team actually, but now that he is there let him prove himself.

We should let Abdul Razzaq or Azhar Mehmood give way to Umar Gul and/or Shabbir Ahmed. Playing so many all-rounders didn't prove good enough. Of all the hype, Azhar Mehmood couldn't prove himself being in TOP form at all. Same for Abdul Razzaq, he should be rested and let him gain his form in county games.

17

Sam Bhai you’re being too harsh on Imran Nazir. He has looked to be a much improved player since his recall. He was unlucky he got out on a duck in the last game, but then again, 3 other Pakistani batsmen also got out on ducks inlcluding Younis Khan. Imran is still learning and is only 21, he has the talent and the right talent from Javed Miandad should make him a great batsmen. Don’t hate the poor guy for no reason…give him a chance to redem himself. Shoiab Malik was booted out of the team and when he came back, he is much improved batsmen. I believe Imran will also bounce back as he gets more chances to open for Pakistan :slight_smile:

Younis Khan is a very talented player and age is on his side. Centuries is not the way to judge a batsmen. He has this great ability to take singles and rotate the strike, which I believe he is the best at in the currest Pakistani team. He is also very vocal and active on the field so there is no reason anyone should be raising a finger on him.

But I do agree with you on Shoaib :k:

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sorry guys couldn't reply earlier and carry on the debate.

fair&balance & yasir: hmm, maybe I'm being too harsh on Imran this time. I guess I'm not differentiating this run from his previous stints in and out of the team.

saby: thanks for that yaar. I can never get the stats right. sorry about that.

rizwan: agreed on Shobby. Imran's wasted quite a few opportunities thus far. This blunder could mean an end to his career I think unless Aamir Sohail comes up with another gem. Re: Khan, I just think that for a guy who's played for a fair bit of time, he should really start producing some good/great innings.

Mr. Xteme & LM: The Imran Nazir that I've seen previously was no better than Afridi. IMO Affers was much more valuable to the team than Nazir. I'm not making a case for Affers' return here though (not that it is easy to either :)).

changez: I totally agree with you on the all-rounders.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sambrialian: *

Mr. Xteme & LM: The Imran Nazir that I've seen previously was no better than Afridi. IMO Affers was much more valuable to the team than Nazir. I'm not making a case for Affers' return here though (not that it is easy to either :))
[/QUOTE]

I think if we just look at batting, then Imran has an edge over Afridi as Imran has a little more patience and can play a variaty of shots compared to Afridi. But Afridi was a useful 6th bowler and was used as a 5th bowler quiet regularily when Saqlain was out of the team and performed pretty well with the ball, a perfect example being when Pakistan defeated the Aussies in Australia, and Afridi did the job with the ball as a 5th bowler in each game.

20

I say bring back Inzimam. The guy has had enough rest already, and I bet he has gained loads of pounds in Multan. He is a far better than Younis Khan or Yousif Yohana combined.