Re: Thread splitted from 'Muslim anymore' to Example of Shirk
Brother Lethal, Are hindus Mushrik.?
Peace bao bihari,
I'm asking about 'Shirk' not about Mushrik. :)
Re: Thread splitted from 'Muslim anymore' to Example of Shirk
Peace Pakilarka,
This is exactly what I am asking from you 'when a person born with non-muslim faith and never known to Almighty Allah how come commit sin of 'shirk'?
A person who worships fire or sun... even thought he doesnt beleive in ALLAH.... He is performing shirk by Doing worshiping anyone other than ALLAH.
Lets look at Quran
Chapter 9 verse 1
Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.
Verse 4
Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you.
Idolaters = mushriks
Were Mushriks Prophet s.a.w had treaty with muslims earlier and then became mushriks ?
Re: Thread splitted from ‘Muslim anymore’ to Example of Shirk
^
I didn’t get your last sentence. 
Re: Thread splitted from ‘Muslim anymore’ to Example of Shirk
Please define Mushriks 
Re: Thread splitted from 'Muslim anymore' to Example of Shirk
Peace Pakilarka,
Why you keep asking me about Mushrik, whereas I'm asking about 'Shirk'?
Re: Thread splitted from 'Muslim anymore' to Example of Shirk
Shirk is associating others with what is exclusive to Allah, i.e. in worship and in His attributes. So for example, if you think that money can give you peace security and food, you are making money as your God because you associated the three attributes of Allah with money solely. Money can be a means provided by Allah for your need but your faith should be that it is Allah who is providing all that and that He is capable of providing you that without even money.
Re: Thread splitted from 'Muslim anymore' to Example of Shirk
Peace Pakilarka,
Why you keep asking me about Mushrik, whereas I'm asking about 'Shirk'?
Because at this point its important to point out that Mushrik is someone who performs shirk.
Now Mushrikeen-e-Maqa werent muslims before.
Hence person doesnt have to be a muslim to perform shirk
Re: Thread splitted from 'Muslim anymore' to Example of Shirk
It is reported on the authority of Qatelah (ra) that a Jewish man came to the Prophet [SAW] and said to him: "Verily, you (Muslims) commit *Shirk, for you say: "As Allah Wills and as you will;" and you say: "By the *Ka'abah!" And so the Prophet [SAW] ordered whoever wanted to swear, to say: "By the *Rabb of the*Ka'abah!" and to say: "As Allah Wills, then as you will." (Narrated by An-Nasaa`i, who said that it is authentic)
Re: Thread splitted from 'Muslim anymore' to Example of Shirk
It is important to note the difference between the various types of shirk ... Some parts are blameless, some parts are blameworthy and others cannot be wiped clean.
But let's think of things in terms of sin rather shirk for the time being ..
Now there are:
1) Sins we commit unknowingly
2) Sins we commit not realising that they are sins
3) Sins we commit knowingly then feel guilty about
4) Sins we commit knowingly and seek forgiveness for doing them
5) Sins we commit knowingly and repent from ever doing again
In Shari'ah we have major sins and minor sins, generally the major sins are crimes that result in correction through the penal system.
In the Hereafter we can view sins as so:
Sins hidden from our testimony (special favour from Allah)
Sins presented but forgiven when on trial
Sins presented but cancelled out with good deeds
Sins so weighty that it results in punishment until they soul is purged from their taint
Sins even weightier that those souls will never see Paradise
There is often confusion about shirk ... That the one sin that will never be forgiven is Shirk ... This is mentioned in the Quran and it refers to the time at the Day of Judgment ... That all types of sin can be forgiven or cancelled out with good deeds (on Judgement Day), except shirk ... So it means that the person must have been a Mushrik before Judgement, before he died.
On the other hand we also know that a person who becomes a Muslim or who leaves shirk, while he is alive then his shirk is not counted anymore ... It is no longer a matter of Judgement, because things are determined differently in this life ... There are references saying that when a non- Muslim accepts Islam ... All his noble deeds before becoming a Muslim will be counted in his good, but all his sins are forgiven and he will be like a baby (sin-free) .
In such cases ... Including shirk those actions will be removed from the slate of that person's record. Those people are not counted as Mushrik and the shirk they may have done is null and void.
By the Mercy of Allah !
Re: Thread splitted from 'Muslim anymore' to Example of Shirk
It is reported on the authority of Qatelah (ra) that a Jewish man came to the Prophet [SAW] and said to him: "Verily, you (Muslims) commit *Shirk, for you say: "As Allah Wills and as you will;" and you say: "By the *Ka'abah!" And so the Prophet [SAW] ordered whoever wanted to swear, to say: "By the *Rabb of the*Ka'abah!" and to say: "As Allah Wills, then as you will." (Narrated by An-Nasaa`i, who said that it is authentic)
Subhanallah. Yahoodis teaching the prophet of Islam, and prophet admitting his mistake. Subhanallah.
lol.
Re: Thread splitted from 'Muslim anymore' to Example of Shirk
anyone who commits any a sin [including shirk], before accepting Islam, is forgiven but IF he/she engages in shirk again, after accepting Islam, he/she will NOT be forgiven until he/she repents and asks for Allah's forgiveness and promises Him that he/she will never engage in shirk again...the door of repentance is open until the time of his/her death. having said that, since no one knows exactly when he/she will die, one must repent and ask for Allah's forgiveness as soon as possible and, inshaa Allah, HE will forgive.
accepting Islam OR performing Hajj [if his/her Hajj is accepted by Allah] makes a person innocent like a baby.
Re: Thread splitted from 'Muslim anymore' to Example of Shirk
anyone who commits any a sin [including shirk], before accepting Islam, is forgiven but IF he/she engages in shirk again, after accepting Islam, he/she will NOT be forgiven until he/she repents and asks for Allah's forgiveness and promises Him that he/she will never engage in shirk again...the door of repentance is open until the time of his/her death. having said that, since no one knows exactly when he/she will die, one must repent and ask for Allah's forgiveness as soon as possible and, inshaa Allah, HE will forgive.
accepting Islam OR performing Hajj [if his/her Hajj is accepted by Allah] makes a person innocent like a baby.
I think what constitutes shirk is the question.
This becomes important because ibn Wahhab declared war on Ottomans (and other Muslims) calling them mushrik and therefore non-Muslims who could be killed and enslaved unless they accepted his own definition of shirk.
Re: Thread splitted from 'Muslim anymore' to Example of Shirk
It is reported on the authority of Qatelah (ra) that a Jewish man came to the Prophet [SAW] and said to him: "Verily, you (Muslims) commit *Shirk, for you say: "As Allah Wills and as you will;" and you say: "By the *Ka'abah!" And so the Prophet [SAW] ordered whoever wanted to swear, to say: "By the *Rabb of the*Ka'abah!" and to say: "As Allah Wills, then as you will." (Narrated by An-Nasaa`i, who said that it is authentic)
Just wondering if the narrator of this hadith is Qutelah binte Qais? she was the controversial woman who married Rasool Allah but apostated after his death. Sure it sounds absurd that Rasool Allah who was sent for the purpose of teaching and propagating the message of tauheed will need to be corrected by a Jew in something as fundamental as this.
Re: Thread splitted from 'Muslim anymore' to Example of Shirk
Because at this point its important to point out that Mushrik is someone who performs shirk.
Now Mushrikeen-e-Maqa werent muslims before. Hence person doesnt have to be a muslim to perform shirk
Peace Pakilarka,
I am aware of that 'Mushrik' is one who performs 'shirk'. So I asked what is 'shirk' before I start talking about 'Mushrik'.
Have you heard that a non-muslim or a person whom we muslims think as 'Mushrik' ever called 'Mushrik' to any muslim or his non-muslim fellow or said that you muslim or his non-muslim fellow committing shirk? It is very clean and clear that a person who never worshipped a 'One True God', in other words never been accepted Islam, that person how come commit 'shirk'.
One who entered in Islam and accepted this religion and pledged (submitted) his will to Almighty Allah that there is no other deity to worship except One True God 'Almighty Allah', beside 'Him' if he worship any other deity, than he committed 'shirk and he will called 'Mushrik'.
Hope you understand now. :)
Re: Thread splitted from 'Muslim anymore' to Example of Shirk
Subhanallah. Yahoodis teaching the prophet of Islam, and prophet admitting his mistake. Subhanallah. lol.
I think what constitutes shirk is the question. This becomes important because ibn Wahhab declared war on Ottomans (and other Muslims) calling them mushrik and therefore non-Muslims who could be killed and enslaved unless they accepted his own definition of shirk.
Peace khoji
The fact is we do indeed say "By the Rabb" these days ... that is undeniable ... also, you have misunderstood the hadith ... the way it is supposed to be viewed is the instruction was given to the companions to literally say what they were believed was the case ...
In the case of the early Christians - when they said that Isa (AS) was the son of God, they did not mean it literally, but it was a cause of confusion and so Islam eradicated the terms which can be misunderstood. The Jew made an allegation, RasoolAllah (SAW) instructed a clarification to be met by his people so that allegation could not be made again. He (SAW) being corrected is only the apparent picture - you fail to see that RasoolAllah (SAW) did what was best in that situation - he (SAW) did not take up an argument with the Jew ... and why can't Allah (SWT) send anyone to make a point?
He (SAW) was fearful that his (SAW) people might return to paganism on his departure ... this is categorically documented. It is not unbecoming of RasoolAllah (SAW) to have been reproached by people - what is unbecoming is to believe that RasoolAllah (SAW) acted or reacted wrongly ... In that situation ... if you look at the overall story - it is clear that whatever action was taken by RasoolAllah (SAW) was to demonstrate that "shirk" is unacceptable ... and we must try to avoid not only committing it, but he also put measures in to prevent others accusing us of committing it even when that is not the case.
Re: Thread splitted from 'Muslim anymore' to Example of Shirk
A bedouin came to the Prophet saww and said: "o Messenger of Allah! Teach me the wonders of knowledge."
The Prophet saww asked, "Before you ask about the wonders of knowledge, do you know about the beginning of knowledge?"
The man inquired, "What is the beginning of knowledge, O Messenger of Allah?"
Hence, he saww replied, "Recognizing Allah the way He deserves to be recognized."
The Bedouin further asked: "And how does Allah deserve to be recognized?"
He saww answered,
You have recognized Allah as He deserves to be recognized when you recognize that nothing resembles Him, that He has no compeer, and without any equal, that he is One, Alone, Manifest, the First and the Last, without parallel and without a rival. This is how He deserves to be recognized.
[From one of the most amazing books I have read, called Kitaab al Tawhid compiled by Sheikh Saduq, translated by John Andrew Morrow and Ali Raza Rizvi]
Re: Thread splitted from 'Muslim anymore' to Example of Shirk
the instruction was given to the companions to literally say what they were believed was the case ...
Yeah but who made him realize the mistake he and other Muslims were making?
It was a JEW! And the prophet, along with all smart Muslims around him, didn't realize this grave mistake until corrected by him.
*Either it's a false hadith or he was a false prophet.
*
[quote]
it was a cause of confusion...
He (SAW) being corrected is only the apparent picture...
He (SAW) was fearful that his (SAW) people might return to paganism on his departure...
[/quote]
I wonder how many other "confusions" were left in the religion just because no other Jew or Christian corrected him. :)
Obviously there are many left because even today Muslims just can't figure out what exactly is shirk. They are calling each other Mushriks and ready to chop each other's head off and capture each other's (mushrik) women as maale ghaneemat.
.
.
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By the way, did prophet thank that Jew for removing this serious confusion that could have turned Muslims towards paganism?
Looking at this hadith again:
[quote]
"Verily, you (Muslims) commit Shirk, for you say: "As Allah Wills and as you will;" and you say: "By the *Ka'abah!" And so the Prophet [SAW] ordered whoever wanted to swear, to say: "By the *Rabb of the*Ka'abah!" and to say: "As Allah Wills, then as you will." ***
[/quote]
So when a yahoodi objected then the prophet asked Muslims to say "By the God of Kaba" instead of just saying "By Kaba".
Here some non Muslim could easily say that Islam's prophet corrected his people but forgot to correct the same thing in the Book. Thus Quran still says "By Teen, By Zaitoon, By Toor", etc.
Re: Thread splitted from 'Muslim anymore' to Example of Shirk
Here some non Muslim could easily say that Islam's prophet corrected his people but forgot to correct the same thing in the Book. Thus Quran still says "By Teen, By Zaitoon, By Toor", etc.
Non Muslim could very well easily say this. They even easily deny Rasool Allah (saw) to be a prophet of Allah. That is not the point. Point is that Quran can not be "corrected" (read amended) by anyone even the prophet (saw) because these are not words of human but words of the God Himself. It's God who swears by Teen, Zaitoon, Toor, Quran etc. so the question of shirk is ridiculous in these examples.
Re: Thread splitted from 'Muslim anymore' to Example of Shirk
Why don't you just admit that this hadith is fake?
Point is that Quran can not be "corrected" (read amended) by anyone even the prophet (saw) because these are not words of human but words of the God Himself.
Ever heard of "mansookh" verses of Quran?
Prophet can't correct it but God can and God did. If there is confusion due to saying "By Teen" then God should have corrected it later ... just like prophet did.
[quote]
It's God who swears by Teen, Zaitoon, Toor, Quran etc. so the question of shirk is ridiculous in these examples.
[/quote]
If God can do it then so can people, otherwise God would have said clearly.
If it is ridiculous in these examples only because God says so then it should also be ridiculous in the other example because prophet said so. Prophet did not say anything without God's approval.
Re: Thread splitted from 'Muslim anymore' to Example of Shirk
The Holy Prophet (saw) was true Prophet God. God has protected all his Prophets from comitting sin on purpose, but in my opinion he has not made them Knowledgeable over all matters. When God adminsitered his task to Moses (as), Moses (as) said that he can't do it alone and needs assistance. So he was assisted by Aron (as).
I remember a incident where 2 Muslims were arguing and they went to the Holy Prophet (saw). The Holy Prophet said that despite being the Holy Prophet, he is still a human he may not be able to decide justly. He would give X his right, but Y was right and not X.
I remember another story from Imam Abu Hanifa who warned a young boy playing in the rain to take care that he may not slip and fall. The boy replied to Imam Abu Hanifa that he may take care that Imam does not slip and fall. They boy's intention was to say that the Imam should also watch his steps, because this great Imam was a example for all other Muslims.