this time christians. and when hindus and sikhs?

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

i think this topic has to be discussed with serious attention.minority communities have been targetted in pakistan ever since its birth and over the past one year attrocities against pakistani minorities have been a regular fashion.most of the time christians were attacked and attacks against hindus were also taken place.

why the so called `islamic guards’(religious thugs and fundamentalists)target christians alone when pakistani hindus are the most down trodden people?what will be the next movbe of these criminals?it is a shame that international communiy is so silent on this matter especially when the human right violations are a day to day practise in pakistan and u.s state report itself has blamed pakistan for unleashing attrocities on religious minorities..

a re there ears o hear their cries?

2

Re: this time christians. and when hindus and sikhs?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gesto: *
i think this topic has to be discussed with serious attention.minority communities have been targetted in pakistan ever since its birth and over the past one year attrocities against pakistani minorities have been a regular fashion.most of the time christians were attacked and attacks against hindus were also taken place.

why the so called `islamic guards'(religious thugs and fundamentalists)target christians alone when pakistani hindus are the most down trodden people?what will be the next movbe of these criminals?it is a shame that international communiy is so silent on this matter especially when the human right violations are a day to day practise in pakistan and u.s state report itself has blamed pakistan for unleashing attrocities on religious minorities..

a re there ears o hear their cries?
[/QUOTE]

Well gesto : A Pakistani must either love Pakistan or Leave it. If the Hindus and Sikhs feel unhappy then they can go to India. If the Pakistani Christians are unhappy then they can migrate to the Christian Countries of Europe and Americas. You are aware that the Hinuds and Sikhs were unhappy in Afghanistan so they left Afghanistan and went wherever they found better conditions.

I am a Hindu and an Indian and it is foolish to expect a Country with 98 Per Cent Muslim Population to dance about and proclaim itself to be Secular.

The relation between Pakistan and its minorities is the Internal Matter of Pakistan and you non-Pakistanis have no right to go about with your Secularist Agenda.

Have a nice day.

3

Re: this time christians. and when hindus and sikhs?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gesto: *
human right violations are a day to day practise in pakistan and u.s state report itself has blamed pakistan for unleashing attrocities on religious minorities.

[/QUOTE]

It is a matter of shame for us that our Christians brethren are targeted without any reason. But let me correct you that human right violations are not "day to day practise" in Pakistan. Instead, they are periodical incidents that take place. Though it will be unwise to book the whole of Pakistan in charges of attacking Christians, I personally feel that at least 96 of the 97 per cent majority must be feeling guilty themselves. Besides a handful of fanatics, nobody feel happy with these type of crimes. A Christian in Pakistan is as dear and important to us as any other Muslim citizen. I however, on behalf of this 97 per cent population of Muslims, render a heartfelt of apology for this tragic incident and let me also state that we stand shoulder to shoulder with anybody who is Pakistani - be it a Christian, a Hindu, a Sikh or anybody else. I'm also thankful for your 'concern,' if it was a genuine concern at all.

4

I can bet that more muslims are killed in Pakistan in sectarian targetted killings than hindus or christians.

The type of morons behind these actions need to be sorted out, and I do think that govt has been trying its best to do so. I have cousins in church affiliated schools in Pakistan and they have mentioned that the security has been quite high for their schools.

or maybe we can follow India's example and just openly blame RAW if we have not done so.

5

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
I can bet that more muslims are killed in Pakistan in sectarian targetted killings than hindus or christians.

The type of morons behind these actions need to be sorted out, and I do think that govt has been trying its best to do so. I have cousins in church affiliated schools in Pakistan and they have mentioned that the security has been quite high for their schools.

or maybe we can follow India's example and just openly blame RAW if we have not done so.
[/QUOTE]

Excellently put...

6

Re: Re: this time christians. and when hindus and sikhs?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bdsurti: *

Well gesto : A Pakistani must either love Pakistan or Leave it. If the Hindus and Sikhs feel unhappy then they can go to India. If the Pakistani Christians are unhappy then they can migrate to the Christian Countries of Europe and Americas. You are aware that the Hinuds and Sikhs were unhappy in Afghanistan so they left Afghanistan and went wherever they found better conditions.

I am a Hindu and an Indian and it is foolish to expect a Country with 98 Per Cent Muslim Population to dance about and proclaim itself to be Secular.

The relation between Pakistan and its minorities is the Internal Matter of Pakistan and you non-Pakistanis have no right to go about with your Secularist Agenda.

Have a nice day.
[/QUOTE]

ofcourse i had a very nice day yesterday..... :p :p :p

     i think ur statement has to be beaten up with a stick of common sense as u mentioned this topic is whole of pakistans internal matter.

first of all u r talking on net and it is completely international and ofcourse a topic discussed in an international(forget pakistan cafe room)stuff has to be dealt and viewed through a prism of international affairs and relations.

it is well known that religious minorities in pakistan are in trouble and their existence is at stake.what my point of view is they are not treated well by both pakistan and international medias and human rights organizations.even there was an attack on christians a couple of days back.so where pakistan is porting if these kinds of developments and situations are let to be happen?

from ur statement ,i sense that u r just acting like an indian under the shadow of ur psuedo-indian claims.
have a great day.............................

7

Re: this time christians. and when hindus and sikhs?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gesto: *

are there ears to hear their cries?
[/QUOTE]

Probably the ears have been defened by the cries of the muslims(men women including kids) who were burnt alive in gujrat.

8

This time christians, and when hindus and sikhs?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gesto: *

ofcourse i had a very nice day yesterday..... :p :p :p

i think ur statement has to be beaten up with a stick of common sense as u mentioned this topic is whole of pakistans internal matter.
first of all u r talking on net and it is completely international and ofcourse a topic discussed in an international(forget pakistan cafe room)stuff has to be dealt and viewed through a prism of international affairs and relations.

it is well known that religious minorities in pakistan are in trouble and their existence is at stake.what my point of view is they are not treated well by both pakistan and international medias and human rights organizations.even there was an attack on christians a couple of days back.so where pakistan is porting if these kinds of developments and situations are let to be happen?

from ur statement ,i sense that u r just acting like an indian under the shadow of ur psuedo-indian claims.
have a great day.............................
[/QUOTE]

Mr. Gesto : It is the fashon to criticise the human rights record of Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Myanmar etc.

The Western Nation or Islamic Nations or even India do not criticise CHINA, the country that has the worst Human Rights Record.

China has destroyed the Ujguirs of Xinjiang, originally East Turkmenistan by flooding Xinjiang with the Chinese Han people. Now China is in the process of subjugating and reducing the Tibetian Buddhist people to a managable minority by flooding Tibet with Han People. The Tibetians have a bit of physical help from India and a lot of Lip service from the Western Wrold and even Japan knows which side its Bread is Buttered and will not upset the Chinese. When Mao Tse Tung invaded Tibet, I think it was in 1949 or 50, even Prime Minister Jawahar Lal Nehru of India did not criticise the Chinese or ask them to stop their action, because he had his lofty ideas of Hindi-Chini Bhai Bhai.

Nehru got his just deserts when the Chinese invaded Aksai Chin and also North East India. Hindi-Chini Bhai Bhai went out of the Window.

So please let the internal matters of our Nations be their own problem to be solved by themselves without the interference of the ''Do Gooders''.

Today everyting is seen from the angle of the Nation's Interest. Despite its Border Dispute with China, India is increasing India-China Trade and India-China Technical Co-operation. I think India-China Annual Trade has crossed the USD Two Billion Mark and I think that in the next few Years they are aiming for the USD Five Billion Mark.

So much for India's intrest in China's Human Rights Record.

I hope you have a nice day

9

Re: This time christians, and when hindus and sikhs?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bdsurti: *

Mr. Gesto : It is the fashon to criticise the human rights record of Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Myanmar etc.

The Western Nation or Islamic Nations or even India do not criticise CHINA, the country that has the worst Human Rights Record.

China has destroyed the Ujguirs of Xinjiang, originally East Turkmenistan by flooding Xinjiang with the Chinese Han people. Now China is in the process of subjugating and reducing the Tibetian Buddhist people to a managable minority by flooding Tibet with Han People. The Tibetians have a bit of physical help from India and a lot of Lip service from the Western Wrold and even Japan knows which side its Bread is Buttered and will not upset the Chinese. When Mao Tse Tung invaded Tibet, I think it was in 1949 or 50, even Prime Minister Jawahar Lal Nehru of India did not criticise the Chinese or ask them to stop their action, because he had his lofty ideas of Hindi-Chini Bhai Bhai.

Nehru got his just deserts when the Chinese invaded Aksai Chin and also North East India. Hindi-Chini Bhai Bhai went out of the Window.

So please let the internal matters of our Nations be their own problem to be solved by themselves without the interference of the ''Do Gooders''.

Today everyting is seen from the angle of the Nation's Interest. Despite its Border Dispute with China, India is increasing India-China Trade and India-China Technical Co-operation. I think India-China Annual Trade has crossed the USD Two Billion Mark and I think that in the next few Years they are aiming for the USD Five Billion Mark.

So much for India's intrest in China's Human Rights Record.

I hope you have a nice day
[/QUOTE]

Mr.Surti.............. first of all understand the fact that chinese xinjiang is inhibited by muslim seperatists and chinese government is trying its best to deal them as islamic fundamentalism can pose threat to any government in this world.

ur remarks on tibet has to be seen as a desperate attempt to evade ur pakistani masters ruthless killings in bangladesh.this time they did not even spare their own muslim brothers of bangladesh despite their killing sprees on bangla hindus.well just to remind u,tibet was fully invaded by china in 1958 ,after chamdev war in which tibetans were fully defeated by chinese.india was not in a position to help them out of the terrible situation because india was not a militarily prepared and alert state as of today.nehru had indeed,supported chinese move and said tibet was fully belonged to china.later they renunciated this stand by telling tibet belongs to tibetans and chinese are agressors.

nehrus biggeset mistake was he took china in to trust and many hawks in his circle were responsible to this terrible mistake.it is a shame that the then indian leadership did not learn a lesson from the chinese attack on o u.n bases in korean peninsula by crossing yangsee river in 1951.they should have understood the fact that chinese were agressors andthey did not do the same even after chinese army invaded tibet and later claimed indian parts.

all these show international community was very silent on many key issues which later groomed to complicated predicaments.to avoid tht international community has to look and approach the things with more serious out looks.they should follow the same when it comes to the sad plight of hindus ,christians and sikhs in pakistan..

i enjoy my day here and hope the same for u.

10

I went to a Catholic school in karachi(eeons ago), we had a huge brick/stone church in the middle of our school. Our best teachers ans students were a mixture of muslims and christians. We got a whooping from Nuns and fathers for being mischieveous(sp) regardless of being a muslim or a christian. There was no discrimination, in fact, we(including our parents) had the highest regard for our teachers. So I dunno where all this discrimination talk is coming from. Granted that there have been some extremist groups who do bad things to minorities, but you know what, these individuals are few and far between, SO PLEASE DO NOT LUMP EVERYBODY IN PAKISTAN INTO HATE MONGERERS----PLEASE

11

Its unfortunate that there are elements in pakistan that will attack minorities, it harms the image of our nation and sows the seeds of internal strife.

When the Hindus and Sikhs, in Pakisan never, insha-allah, however when our armies under the banner of Islam pour over the Indian border we will remind you of the good old days. :hehe:

Allah o Akbar! :slight_smile:

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whimsical guppie :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue:

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Mr. Gesto

** first of all understand the fact that chinese xinjiang is inhibited by muslim seperatists and chinese government is trying its best to deal them as islamic fundamentalism can pose threat to any government in this world.**

In respect of the Ujghur Separatists Terrorists please note that I do not support any form of Terrorism. In this respect the Government of Pakistan has handed over a number of this type of Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists to the Government of China.

What I am stating is the fact that Xinjiang was the Free Republic of East Turkmenistan with may be 100 Per Cent Ujghur Population before the Chinese Communists took them over in 1949 or 1950. Since then the Chinese have put severe restrictions on the Ujghur People and have flooded Xinjiang with Chinese Han Immigrants. The Han are over Forty Per Cent and the Ujghuir are just under Fifty Per Cent. Within another ten years the Han will be over Fifty Per Cent.

None of the Good and Great Nations of this World will ask the Chinese to roll back their Hanisation and this includes the Islamic Nations. Everybody wants to keep the Chinese Sweet..

ur remarks on tibet has to be seen as a desperate attempt to evade ur pakistani masters ruthless killings in bangladesh.

Mr. Gesto : Please check my view and my being an Indian and a Hindu on the Thread ‘’Modi talks of Minorities …’’ and then let me know of your comments in respect of my Identity. I have stated about the Atrocities of the Pakistani Armed forces in East Pakistan now Bangladesh, as a matter of fact and not as a derision, and our Pakistani Colleagues have very humanely understood the statement.

Nehru’s mistakes

Fine. He made them. We cannot undo them. We must continue to suffer the consequences.

all these show international community was very silent on many key issues

Countries look after their INTERESTS. Other issues are put aside as long as the Interests are protected/fulfilled.

The sad plight of Hindus , Christians and Sikhs in Pakistan..

First and foremost Pakistan is an Islamic Country with 98 Per Cent of the Population being Muslim. As far as the Hindus and Sikhs are concerned they have stayed back out of their own volition. As such they have to suffer the consequences of their decision. Pakistan is in no way stopping them from leaving Pakistan.

Of course you can argue that the Qaid-e-Azam Jinnah unequivocally stated that Religion was a personal matter and Moslem, Hindus, Sikhs etc were all Pakistanis. However, in 1956 Pakistan declared itself to be an Islamic Republic and so one must take into consideration that Times Change, Conditions Change and the Order of Things Change. The old saying stands ‘’If you cannot beat them then join them. If you do not want to join them then get the h*ll out of there.’’

The latest Situation in respect of Hindus and Sikhs in Afghanistan is an Indication of the Solution to such a Problem.

In case Pakistan can convince its Minorities that it Guarantees their Safety and Freedom to practice a religion of their choice then it is fine for the Minorities to enjoy their privileges and responsibilities of Pakistani Citizenship. Otherwise they have an alternative Choice. THEY MUST MAKE THEIR OWN INDIVIDUAL AND COLLECTIVE CHOICE.

A final request : It is very difficult for an Overwhelming Majority Community to accept their faults. So please do not berate mo_best and others who are trying hard to understand and appreciate the difficulties faced by the minorities in Pakistan and are possibly trying to act in ways to assuage the problems of Pakistan’s Minorities thereby improving Pakistan’s Image. I am not the keeper of mo_best and others but I think a word from an outsider may help.

I am not answerable for their Chauvinistic Views. If they think that the Pakistani Army under the Banner of Islam is going to pour over the Indian Borders into a Country which is Seven times in Population and about Nine times in Economy (Business Recorder of 01 October lists Pakistan’s per capita Income as USD 412. Some time ago The Economist stated that the Indian pci was USD 490) then that is their privilege. Let us not get into an argument.

Here is the link for the Business Recorder :

http://www.brecorder.com/index.php?archive=0&css=brecord.css&m=017&cd=2002-10-01&s=001&f0207=100

Pakistan’s Foreign Debt is about USD 38 Billion and Domestic Debt is Pakistani Rupees 1,708.5 Billion which is equal to about USD 28 Billion i.e. total Debt USD 67 Billion. With Population of 140 Million and USD 412 pci the total GDP is about USD 58 Billion. Thus Pakistan’s Total Debt is over 100 per cent of Pakistan’s GDP.

Have a nice day.

14

No one is talking about "Pakistani" armies par se-I said the armies of Islam-insha allah soon this stupid nationalism will be abolished and we'll refer to each other simply in terms of momin (muslim) and other. Then the lands which belong to us shall again be brought under our command-so that we can eliminate the minafiq's amongst us, and show how BEAUTIFUL and TOLERANT this faith is. We can end the radically warped taleban style Islam-and too end the apologist reign of "muslims" who turn away from the guidance of our beloved prophet (pbuh) and the miracle of Al-Quran.

The muslim nation is not known to lose to often, certainly the Hindu state has not bothered our beloved liberators too often.

15

**No one is talking about "Pakistani" armies par se-I said the armies of Islam-insha allah soon this stupid nationalism will be abolished and we'll refer to each other simply in terms of momin (muslim) and other. Then the lands which belong to us shall again be brought under our command-so that we can eliminate the minafiq's amongst us, and show how BEAUTIFUL and TOLERANT this faith is. We can end the radically warped taleban style Islam-and too end the apologist reign of "muslims" who turn away from the guidance of our beloved prophet (pbuh) and the miracle of Al-Quran.

The muslim nation is not known to lose to often, certainly the Hindu state has not bothered our beloved liberators too often.**

mo_best

With reference to your statement ¡®¡¯however when our armies under the banner of Islam pour over the Indian border we will remind you of the good old days¡¯¡¯ it does not matter to me under what nomenclature the Islamic Army invades us with its PEACEFUL AND TOLERENT AND BEAUTIFUL AND LOVING SWORD doing to us Kafirs what has been happening over the last 1500 years or so. I doubt if it ¡®¡¯will remind us of the ¡®¡¯good old days¡¯¡¯. Of course you have been there since the good old days came originally. I am sure you will enjoy them when they inevitably come back.

Well it will not be anything new however we shall see when the time comes. There is no point in fretting at something which you in your Wisdom state is inevitable.

And I thought that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) stated ¡®¡¯To you your Religion, to me Mine¡¯¡¯

Have a very good day.

16

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bdsurti: *
**Listne Kafir-allow me to explian the point I make.

No one is talking about "Pakistani" armies par se-I said the armies of Islam-insha allah soon this stupid nationalism will be abolished and we'll refer to each other simply in terms of momin (muslim) and other. Then the lands which belong to us shall again be brought under our command-so that we can eliminate the minafiq's amongst us, and show how BEAUTIFUL and TOLERANT this faith is. We can end the radically warped taleban style Islam-and too end the apologist reign of "muslims" who turn away from the guidance of our beloved prophet (pbuh) and the miracle of Al-Quran.

The muslim nation is not known to lose to often, certainly the Hindu state has not bothered our beloved liberators too often.**

mo_best

With reference to your statement ¡®¡¯however when our armies under the banner of Islam pour over the Indian border we will remind you of the good old days¡¯¡¯ it does not matter to me under what nomenclature the Islamic Army invades us with its PEACEFUL AND TOLERENT AND BEAUTIFUL AND LOVING SWORD doing to us Kafirs what has been happening over the last 1500 years or so. I doubt if it ¡®¡¯will remind us of the ¡®¡¯good old days¡¯¡¯. Of course you have been there since the good old days came originally. I am sure you will enjoy them when they inevitably come back.

Well it will not be anything new however we shall see when the time comes. There is no point in fretting at something which you in your Wisdom state is inevitable.

And I thought that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) stated ¡®¡¯To you your Religion, to me Mine¡¯¡¯

P.S. I admit my lack of knowledge of the Holy Koran but then, as you say, I am a Kafir.

Have a very good day.
[/QUOTE]

Bijay, the Holy Prophet was a man of peace, characterized by his great tolerance and mercy. He never urged us to interfere or disrespect other peoples religion, which includes yours. So if you find a Muslim degrading your religion, forgive him, for hes on the wrong track...

17

I never insulted the HIndu faith, tolerance and intellects are pillars of our faith, I merely stated historical fact-namely the muslim forces usually won battles in the Indian sub-continent.

18

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *

Bijay, the Holy Prophet was a man of peace, characterized by his great tolerance and mercy. He never urged us to interfere or disrespect other peoples religion, which includes yours. So if you find a Muslim degrading your religion, forgive him, for hes on the wrong track...
[/QUOTE]

Spock Ji

Abh hamey samjh aayi.

On the Pipeline Thread you addressed me as ''Bijar'' and I un-necessarily labored under a misconception.

I am not Bijay.

Thank you so very much for your first three lines. They coincide with my quotation - rightly or wrongly – attributed by me to the Holy Prophet (PBUH) i.e. ''To You Your Religion, To Me Mine''.

Our Leaders (Military, Political, Religious etc) make us fight. They watch us die like flies. As far as they are concerned they sit in their Air Conditioned Mansions drinking Johnnie Walker Black Label and enjoying life to the hilt.

I have replied to mo-best without any rancor or acrimony. I hope he finds it in his heart that in today’s Democratic Environments with the availability of the Multi Media like Television etc. it is not possible to repeat the RELIGIOUS WARS OF OLD.

Today we have to live and let live. We have to practice our Religion and let others practice their Religion. Just like all other Freedoms, Religious Freedom is now the order of the day.

Have a nice day.

19

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mo_best: *
I never insulted the HIndu faith, tolerance and intellects are pillars of our faith, I merely stated historical fact-namely the muslim forces usually won battles in the Indian sub-continent.
[/QUOTE]

mo_best

Thanks for the lesson in history. I am in your debt.

Have a nice day.

20

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bdsurti: *

Spock Ji

Abh hamey samjh aayi.

On the Pipeline Thread you addressed me as ''Bijar'' and I un-necessarily labored under a misconception.

I am not Bijay.

Thank you so very much for your first three lines. They coincide with my quotation - rightly or wrongly – attributed by me to the Holy Prophet (PBUH) i.e. ''To You Your Religion, To Me Mine''.

Our Leaders (Military, Political, Religious etc) make us fight. They watch us die like flies. As far as they are concerned they sit in their Air Conditioned Mansions drinking Johnnie Walker Black Label and enjoying life to the hilt.

I have replied to mo-best without any rancor or acrimony. I hope he finds it in his heart that in today’s Democratic Environments with the availability of the Multi Media like Television etc. it is not possible to repeat the RELIGIOUS WARS OF OLD.

Today we have to live and let live. We have to practice our Religion and let others practice their Religion. Just like all other Freedoms, Religious Freedom is now the order of the day.

Have a nice day.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, my bad!!! I always confused you with bijay! I will take care in future :) Sorry again...