This May Change your mind on Sharon's Fence...

An interesting point of view on the “Terrorist Fence” Israel is building.

The author states that there are a number of good reasons to endorse the fence.

  1. Fences have cooled down previous conflicts.

  2. The Fence roughly follows the Green Line.

  3. The Fence can be moved to follow future settlements.

  4. Most of all: The Fence traps illegal Israeli settlers on the Palestinian side of the Fence! Rather than try to rout out extremeist settlers, the settlers themselves would make the choice. Abandon the settlements or be subject to Palestinian rule! Not a bad solution when you think about it!

This article may have changed my mind on the Fence. Rather than a tool of “apartheid” as some have stated here, the dang thing may be pretty practical.

from the August 06, 2003 edition

A fence to make good neighbors

By Amitai Etzioni

WASHINGTON – Instead of chiding Israel for building a fence between its territory and the land on which the Palestinian state is to be formed, the United States should welcome it. Indeed, it should offer to cover a good part of the cost involved in building the fence, about $600 million, to rush it along. Historically, some fences can make good neighbors. While not a panacea, solid walls can at least offer temporary relief from situations of drastic conflict.
So far, few have noted the fact that the Sharon government’s agreement to build the fence sends a clear signal - better yet, creates facts on the ground - that most Israeli settlers will have to leave the West Bank. These settlers are on the “wrong side” of the fence.

Theoretically, they could live under Palestinian rule, the way millions of Palestinian Arabs live in Israel, but the settlers are very unlikely to do so. They are hard-liners who view the West Bank as God-given Israeli territory. If Palestinian rule commenced, these hard- liners would surely leave for Israel proper.

There are those critics who argue that the fence amounts to an Israeli land grab. Actually, it follows fairly closely the Green Line, the one road map champions envision as the future border between Israel and Palestine. In other parts, one can argue it should be built a few miles to the West - without needing to oppose the whole thing.

But why should Israel or the US support the fence? First and foremost, it will serve as an effective barrier against terrorism. The fragile current cease-fire rests on the notion that Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmud Abbas will be able to disarm Hamas and Islamic Jihad. These militant Palestinian groups openly declare that they will not settle for any “peace” that stops short of Israel’s destruction. Hamas states in its charter:

“[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith…”

This is a line that Hamas and Islamic Jihad have consistently maintained - from their viewpoint - for good reasons. To assume that these groups would give up on their goals if only Israel would extend some gestures of good will, or because of some meetings in Washington, is a dangerous mistake.

There are those who argue that extremists merely mouth these statements to keep their base. This may be the case, but right now no one can tell for sure. The fence will help ensure that whatever is behind the hot statements will not lead to renewal of violence. The fence would slow down the operation of these groups, and it will maintain the conditions essential for nurturing the cease-fire, allowing time for tempers to cool off and for both sides to learn to enjoy the fruits of the current respite from violence.

The promise of the fence is far from a theoretical notion. When a fence was built in Cyprus, separating the Greeks and Turks in 1974 after years of bloody fighting, the hostilities subsided. Indeed, the two groups have since moved toward reconciliation. A fence helps to maintain an uneasy truce on the northern border between Israel and Lebanon, despite the fact that there are several thousand Hizbullah terrorists in the area. And the fence that surrounds Gaza is the main reason very few terrorists reach Israel from that region.

Critics say that the fence now being built does not follow the precise line of demarcation which this or that party favors as the border between Israel and Palestine. True. But it is no Great Wall of China. It can be quite readily relocated when a peace treaty is forged. Critics say that the fence inconveniences some Arabs because it falls between some of their villages. True. But this is a small price to pay for what I claim can be a major contribution to making peace. Critics say it will prevent Palestinians from working in Israel or tending to their land on the other side of the fence. Like the fence around Gaza, however, the new fence has plans for dozens of gates, allowing workers and farmers with permits to travel through. Indeed, one day - hopes spring eternal - it can be removed.

It is no cure-all. There is no agreement where it should or could be built in Jerusalem. Terrorists can attack by sea and air and Israel can respond in the same way. And fences can be breached, although this one will be secured by the Israeli army, using both troops and various sensors. Still, when all is said and done, the fence could do much to facilitate a cooling-off period for both sides, without which the cease-fire is unlikely to last.

• Amitai Etzioni is University Professor at the George Washington University and author, most recently, of ‘My Brother’s Keeper: A Memoir and a Message.’

A fence to make good neighbors - CSMonitor.com

[quote]
It can be quite readily relocated when a peace treaty is forged.
[/quote]

i am not entirely certain i comprehend how Etzioni states it can be so easily relocated? Most of this fence is comprised of a concrete base, topped with 5m of wire and mesh. On one side lie razor wire and a ditch (width of ditch 4m). Additionally, 8.5 kms of the structure has a solid concrete wall (8m high). Let's not forget the watchtowers for Israeli snipers. Did i mention electronic sensors? How is any of this, constructed at such an enormous cost ($2 million per km), to be "readily relocated"?

[quote]
Critics say that the fence inconveniences some Arabs because it falls between some of their villages.
[/quote]

Semantic gymnastics. According to the BBC, as a consequence of this wall "hundreds" of Palestinian farmers and traders are cut off from their land and means of economic survival. In Qalqilya (where fruits and agriculture comprise most of the peoples' livelihoods), three sides of Qalqilya are cut off from farms and the second-largest water source in the region. How are farmers supposed to grow their fruits in an environment with curtailed access to water?
In order to enter their own town, the residents of Qalqilya - 40,000 men, women, and children - will have to pass through a single Israeli checkpoint.

Everyone who is genuinely interested in Israel's apartheid fence would do well, perhaps, to remember that less than 55 years ago, Malan's government in South Africa had passed the Group Areas Act, whose primary objective was to separate individuals based upon the colour of their skin. This was the grand policy of 'apartness' (the Afrikaan word for apartheid). In an updated, but fundamentally similar manner, this is also the consequence of Israel's "security fence" - apartheid by a different name.

Make a fence.. India is making a fence across the pakistani Border..Israel has every right to make a fence. You don't want yahoos geting in and killing innocents. Keep them clowns out.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *

i am not entirely certain i comprehend how Etzioni states it can be so easily relocated? Most of this fence is comprised of a concrete base, topped with 5m of wire and mesh. On one side lie razor wire and a ditch (width of ditch 4m). Additionally, 8.5 kms of the structure has a solid concrete wall (8m high). Let's not forget the watchtowers for Israeli snipers. Did i mention electronic sensors? How is any of this, constructed at such an enormous cost ($2 million per km), to be "readily relocated"?

Semantic gymnastics. According to the BBC, as a consequence of this wall "hundreds" of Palestinian farmers and traders are cut off from their land and means of economic survival. In Qalqilya (where fruits and agriculture comprise most of the peoples' livelihoods), three sides of Qalqilya are cut off from farms and the second-largest water source in the region. How are farmers supposed to grow their fruits in an environment with curtailed access to water?
In order to enter their own town, the residents of Qalqilya - 40,000 men, women, and children - will have to pass through a single Israeli checkpoint.

Everyone who is genuinely interested in Israel's apartheid fence would do well, perhaps, to remember that less than 55 years ago, Malan's government in South Africa had passed the Group Areas Act, whose primary objective was to separate individuals based upon the colour of their skin. This was the grand policy of 'apartness' (the Afrikaan word for apartheid). In an updated, but fundamentally similar manner, this is also the consequence of Israel's "security fence" - apartheid by a different name.
[/QUOTE]

1) Nadia, have not the curent circumstances cut off farmers from their land? More check points can be added.

2) The US will end up paying the cost of relocating a fence if it needs to be moved. What do you care?

3) Razor wire and ditches? Such is the price of bombs. The Israelis are entitled to their security, and a fence is certainly more benign than the IDF.

4) Apartheid? Why don't we just scream TORTURE in 40 point print across our foreheads? These emotionally charged labels prevent solutions. Ideally yes everybody lives in peace and harmony, holds hands and takes showers together. Get real. After fifty years the one thing that is absolutely certain is that the Palestinians and the Israelis hate each other. So separate them. Shoot, put up a moat, electric fences and an ocean or two. Whatever it takes for them to stop killing each other like they have for the last 50 years.

Matsui has a good point, the largest land mine fields being constructed today are in Kashmir. It is an explosive fence that will maim children for years. Please start screaming Apartheid......

“More” check points?
How many more check points in an occupied strip of land? :confused: That will go down wonderfully as an excuse for frustrated suicide bombers wanting to blow up more people.

ouch. Well, i happen to care when millions and millions of dollars is being poured into a counterproductive project that could, potentially, have been utilized for far better things - projects that could have more lasting peaceful consequences than a concrete wall designed to create bantustans.

They are indeed entitled to their security, not at the expense of the lives of Palestinian farmers and fruit-growers. How does one possibly begin to purchase someone’s security by trampling upon someone else’s life? Completely irrational. No one’s security can be derived at the expense of someone else’s life.

Had the Palestinians come up with a similar solution, i wonder how different the response would have been - everyone would have been screaming at how racist the Palestinians are to want to create a wall that separates the Israelis from them. But hey, if the Israelis do it - it’s not apartheid, it’s just the poor Israeli fanatical settlers trying to protect themselves.

Great answer Nadia. :k:

If the roles were reversed, Palestinian’s would be labelled as nazis by the west and accused of creating a second holocaust on the poor Jews.

There is no morality in this world. The people in the west who claim it are living in a fantasy world. This world is all about power. If you have power over somebody else, your ideology, religion, culture and values will be considered supreme. Israel has power over the Palestinians. Hence, everything the Israelis do is considered their right. Oh yeah, the west might feel for the Palestinians, but hey, they lost the war. Everyone feels for the loser, but the winner gets all the glory. That is the way of the west my friends.

A country like Israel only understands power. If the Arabs can show to Israel that they have power over them, this whole conflict will be over. Until that time, Israel thinks of Arabs as losers and that they can do whatever they want with them. The west will continue to support them for that.

Re: This May Change your mind on Sharon’s Fence…

do you really need all this to make up ur mind when it is laready made up. all this propoganda talking and writing is nothing but to tell us that you ppl are right in whatever you do or think.

"it's just the poor Israeli fanatical settlers trying to protect themselves."

Huh?

You did not read the article. The fence is not protecting the settlers at all! The fence is trapping the settlers on Palestinian land without the protection of the IDF! The fruit growers will be more than happy to take over the abandoned settlements.

Cutting more holes in a fence is not a big deal. And frankly if you look at the millions that Israel spends on security, a well organized system of checkpoints is cheaper and better organized than the system of tank raids into villages to find Palestinian bomb factories whilst killing a bunch of civilians! Are lives not being trampled every day? And all of the fig growers know that the basis for peace is land. Compromises need to be worked out. But if bombings continue in Israel that same fig grower will lose his whole family as the Israeli's come looking for a bomber one night. Tough choice.

Break 'em up and separate them like the adolescents on the playground.... And leave the emotionally charged "bantustans" at the door. There will be a border. A secure border. The Palestinians CANNOT guarantee Israel long term security. 50 years of history has shown that they are unable to live together, let them live apart....

Actually, palestinians having fences is aastupid and non-realistic notion. Yes,the palestinians can build fences and the earth is flat. :slight_smile:

An economy that needs Israel for it;s very survivial to close itself in, is stupid. What the hell are they gonna do with all those suicide belts if the borders are sealed. :rotfl:

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
"it's just the poor Israeli fanatical settlers trying to protect themselves."

Huh?

You did not read the article. The fence is not protecting the settlers at all! The fence is trapping the settlers on Palestinian land without the protection of the IDF! The fruit growers will be more than happy to take over the abandoned settlements.

Cutting more holes in a fence is not a big deal. And frankly if you look at the millions that Israel spends on security, a well organized system of checkpoints is cheaper and better organized than the system of tank raids into villages to find Palestinian bomb factories whilst killing a bunch of civilians! Are lives not being trampled every day? And all of the fig growers know that the basis for peace is land. Compromises need to be worked out. But if bombings continue in Israel that same fig grower will lose his whole family as the Israeli's come looking for a bomber one night. Tough choice.

Break 'em up and separate them like the adolescents on the playground.... And leave the emotionally charged "bantustans" at the door. There will be a border. A secure border. The Palestinians CANNOT guarantee Israel long term security. 50 years of history has shown that they are unable to live together, let them live apart....
[/QUOTE]

fence will bring more fear for isreal. its just a matter of time and the whole world will see isreal suffering for its actions. yes killing a bunch of civilians is not a big deal for isrealis and same goes for palestinians when they kill a bunch of isrealis :~). give them their land back and get out of there and we'll have peace on both sides :~)

"give them their land back and get out of there and we'll have peace on both sides :~)'

That would of course be ALL of the land you are speaking of.....

Probably a little more complicated than that.

Xguru, Thank you.
i agree. The words “morality” and “this world” do not go together - but for daily testimony of this, we need only glance at the world we occupy. If this wall had been an idea of Mahmoud Abbas, can you imagine what the screaming headlines would look like? “Militant Palestinians propose apartheid-reminscient fence to create permanent barrier between Jews and Muslims”. Muslims would be branded as intolerant, xenophobic, racist blah blah. :slight_smile: Hey but if it’s Israelis - then the semantics literally change. A ‘wall’ becomes a ‘necessary security fence’.

OG, You honestly believe that Ariel Sharon will allow Palestinian fruit growers to usurp land abandoned by Israeli settlers? According to the BBC, “Palestinian land is confiscated to build the fence/wall; hundreds of Palestinian farmers and traders are cut off from their land and means of economic survival.” The fruit growers, rather than gaining more land, will be actually cut off from their sources of livelihood - as i maintained above. The fence “separates tens of thousands of Palestinians from their land and surrounds thousands more so that they will be able to leave their villages only by passing through Israeli army checkpoints” (source).

The fence “winds through Palestinian areas, isolating and in some cases splitting local communities” (source). Sounds like a recipe for social harmony to me.

Yes it’s well-organized - for whom? Not for the Palestinian men who will have to wake up at 5 am to take a circuitous route through the security checkpoints, travelling to work via a route that will be many times longer than it should take them, on average. Does Sharon believe that’s not going to create more resentment?

Once again, this discourse is focusing upon what’s supposedly good for the Israelis. This wall isn’t going to deliver genuine security for them; it’s a mirage in the desert. The wall will successfully isolate Palestinian farmers and if anyone believes suicide bombers are going to be stopped by this strategy, they too have bought into the illusion.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
"it's just the poor Israeli fanatical settlers trying to protect themselves."

Huh?

You did not read the article. The fence is not protecting the settlers at all! The fence is trapping the settlers on Palestinian land without the protection of the IDF! The fruit growers will be more than happy to take over the abandoned settlements.

[/QUOTE]

Of course once the Israelis are trapped there and killed (of course) that would just provide a further excuse to extend the permanent wall/fence. I do believe this will be a replica of the Berlin wall. Of course it could be worse and resemble Holocaust prision camps. Cement walls, Barbed Wire...hmmm....not a pretty image.

Re: This May Change your mind on Sharon's Fence...

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *

4) Most of all: The Fence traps illegal Israeli settlers on the Palestinian side of the Fence!
[/QUOTE]

Is there any such thing as a 'legal settler'?

From what I know based on hardcore definitions outlined by the UN, all settlers are illegal.....those planted by Sharon, and those who planted themselves.
A fence might be a good thing, so long as it actually follows the green line, not roughly.

CM, the Berlin wall was to keep people in. This is to keep people out. I think it is a fabuous idea.

The official American position is that they may impose economic sanctions if the wall goes up.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
CM, the Berlin wall was to keep people in. This is to keep people out. I think it is a fabuous idea.
[/QUOTE]

Depends which point of view you see things from.

Here’s the story:

Israel dismisses US aid cut over ‘security fence’](Latest news & breaking headlines | The Times and The Sunday Times)

From Roland Watson in Washington

THE White House raised the stakes over Israel’s controversial security wall yesterday, threatening to withhold hundreds of millions of dollars in economic aid unless the project was halted or rethought.

President Bush has been persuaded that if left unchecked, construction of the 370-mile barrier was a serious threat to the Middle East peace process.

The decision to threaten economic sanctions on America’s most significant Middle East ally appeared to take Israeli officials by surprise. Advisers to Ariel Sharon, the Israeli Prime Minister, dismissed it as a “rumour” and said that the issue had not been raised by Washington. But American officials said that the decision to link the wall with aid had been made and it was only a matter of time before the Bush Administration showed its hand. “The wall is a problem. We can’t just ignore it,” one administration official said.

White House aides said that no figure had been finalised and different formulas were being examined for reducing the $10 billion (£6.25 billion) aid package Israel is expecting from the United States this year, a figure that cements its position as the largest recipient of US overseas aid. About $1 billion is for military spending and a further $9 billion is in loan guarantees.

The leading idea would be to deduct dollar-for-dollar anything that Israel spends on the wall east of the 1967 division between Israel and the West Bank. The part of the barrier already built carves up Palestinian lands, running through villages and properties. US officials are also considering withholding money comparable to what Israel is spending on bypasses that route Jewish settlers around Palestinian villages. The final formula will not be settled until September at the earliest and US officials emphasised that it was not a “done deal”.

Even before the threat, Israeli officials had suggested that Mr Sharon’s Government was prepared to change the route of the wall, which it insists it needs to keep out suicide bombers.

Washington was alerted to the political dangers posed by the wall when Condoleezza Rice, Mr Bush’s National Security Adviser, visited the Middle East in June. She was given a detailed presentation by the Palestinian Cabinet to demonstrate how it cut through Palestinian lands and how it would lead to political impasse. Dr Rice found the presentation persuasive, aides said, and convinced Mr Bush of the need to take action. Mr Bush has discussed the wall with Mr Sharon and Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Prime Minister, in separate White House meetings in the past two weeks. He did not directly threaten Mr Sharon at the time and gave no hint that he was preparing to confound sceptics and put pressure on Israel on the issue.

The move is a political gamble for Mr Bush at home, where Republican strategists have spent two years plotting how he can maximise support among America’s influential Jewish lobby in his 2004 re-election campaign. It also carries a echo from his father’s presidency. The first President Bush carried through a threat to withhold an entire $10 billion aid package when Yitzhak Shamir, the Israeli Prime Minister, refused to stop settlement activities in the West Bank. The stance was blamed for the collapse of his support among Jewish voters in the 1992 US presidential elections, from 33 per cent in 1988 to just 9 per cent, which contributed to his defeat by Bill Clinton.

While a fence might be a fine idea, how it lies now is not the way to do it. Going onto Palestinian farmers land, erected a structure that separates them from their fields, and forcing them to rely on the IDF to let them to and from their fields is counterproductive to peace.

achieving peace by putting a wall is a very ambitious plan. only time will tell how all this will play out. but one thing is for sure, there won't be any peace as long this wall remains there. :~)