"...They are your Garments, and you are their Garments..."

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

Scratch & Sarah,

I'll admit, i missed the first page and came straight into this. However, after going through it and this page, there has been much said about Islaam that would be considered blasphemous by many (coming from a Muslim), and i've let it go until now ... so be warned.

Tolerance and respect should be given to all religions and not just the ones you pick and choose.

'Devils advocate' does not imply that one literally beomes a 'devil', it's figure of speech amd description to suggest that one is playing an opposing role with an opposing argument.

Sentinel.

42

The way I'm reading, it sounds as if more women and poor people entered paradise.

43

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44

Sarah, check the first page again, I have edited my post. I did not call you a devil's advocate suggesting that you are on his side but I called you a devil's advocate saying that you are on an opposing side which is not neccessarily good or bad.

I'm not sure why you are still hung up on me calling you a "devil's advocate" even after Sentinel cleared it up for you.

Regarldess, i took the liberty of editing my previous post in this thread.

It would save Sentinel the time and effort to tend to your complaint about me calling u a devil's advocate even though it was made explicitly clear by the moderator

Jitna Diya Sarkar Nay Mujko, Itni Meri Auqat Nahi, Yeh Saab Tumhara Karam Hai Aqa, Mujh Mein Aisi Koi Baat Nahin.

Love happens once . . .

45

Scratch, how can you say what is happening in Afghanistan is a full code of Islamic law? Did it ever occur to you that people like adding on to religion? Islam itself is the perfect religion not augmented by man.

Please in further discussions and this goes for the rest of you, DO NOT BLAME THE RELIGION BLAME THE PEOPLE IF YOU MUST.

Jitna Diya Sarkar Nay Mujko, Itni Meri Auqat Nahi, Yeh Saab Tumhara Karam Hai Aqa, Mujh Mein Aisi Koi Baat Nahin.

Love happens once . . .

46

If you ask me, I certainly dont beleive in Afghanistan's Islam.

But ask "any" mullah in Pakistan, and he will tell you that if theres Islam in any country in the world then its in Afghanistan. So who is a greater source of knowledge, you or them? And whom should I beleive?

-Building From Scratch-

47

[quote]
Originally posted by Scratch:
*But ask "any" mullah in Pakistan, and he will tell you that if theres Islam in any country in the world then its in Afghanistan. So who is a greater source of knowledge, you or them? And whom should I beleive?
*
[/quote]

You can have as much knowledge about Islam but if you apply it correctly then it is used wisely. In my opinion I am not asking you to believe me or them, what I am merely stating is that Islam is governed by Allah not by me not by a bunch of mullah's hung up on themselves. If you should ask who is the greater source of knowledge, then obviously divinity and not some mere human who has a beard preaching his belief system according to his interpretation of the religion and throw in a few concocted ideas to keep women under his shoe.

If you ask me where is Islam in this world then it is there where people comprehend and question what they do and why do the actions of following the religion necessitate them with a gratuity being eternal bliss, in other words Paradise.

Its one thing to follow what you have been taught by a singular source which is belief implemented by forefathers and mullahs. Thats great, all the best to ya. But when you question and find out that what you are being taught has logic in it and a reason to it that is what i call FAITH.

Jitna Diya Sarkar Nay Mujko, Itni Meri Auqat Nahi, Yeh Saab Tumhara Karam Hai Aqa, Mujh Mein Aisi Koi Baat Nahin.

Love happens once . . .

48

[quote]
Originally posted by Thap:
**I can see that you missed the point of this Hadith completely.

I will wait for more views.**
[/quote]

IMHO, This particular hadith is in context of "backbiting" (gheebat). Women are found to be more interested in backbiting than men. It does not mean that men are free from this disease. What I think about this hadith/tradition is that it stops us from backbiting. There are more hadiths and traditions which tell us to stop backbiting, this is one of them.

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

49

[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
** IMHO, This particular hadith is in context of "backbiting" (gheebat). Women are found to be more interested in backbiting than men. It does not mean that men are free from this disease. What I think about this hadith/tradition is that it stops us from backbiting. There are more hadiths and traditions which tell us to stop backbiting, this is one of them.

**
[/quote]

Yep,

Like many things in Islam an impure heart can corrupt the true meaning. If at first it appears there is an imbalance in Islam with regard to men and women, look again.

50

Thap,
Thanks for sharing the hadith but taking things out of context always distort the meaning.

Changes, thanks for the explanation.

51

[quote]
Originally posted by Yasmine:
**Thap,
Thanks for sharing the hadith but taking things out of context always distort the meaning.

Changes, thanks for the explanation.**
[/quote]

No Yasmine,

That was the full Hadith not taken out of context! My point was that before jumping to conclusions people should read and understand Islamic revelation with a pure heart. This hadith could be viewed by some people as being sexist..but reading the Quran and Hadith with your heart full of reverence helps you see the true meaning.

52

How on earth can you believe this?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/mad2.gif

Quote me an ayat from the Qur’an that tells us to treat women with such contempt.

Go on. Bring your proof.

These are GOD’s revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)

53

MUSLIM WOMAN AND NON-MUSLIM MAN:

… And give not (your daughters) in marriage to
Al-Mushrikun** till they
believe in Allah alone and verily a believing slave is better
than a (free) Mushrik, even though he pleases you…[2:221] **
Al-Mushrikun=>Pagans, idolators, polytheist and disbelievers in
the Oneness of Allah and in His messanger Prophet Muhammad SAW)

  • [6]]

Islam considers the husband head-of-the-family and therefore
requires that a Muslima cannot marry a non-Muslim because she
will be under the authority of a non-muslim husband. He may
prevent her from carrying out her religious obligations by
either pressuring her or physically abusing her. But it is not
the sole reason for imposing the restriction. The situation is
considered very damaging for the woman to practise Islam
afterwards and even worse for the kids in such marriages. There
are NO conditions mentioned under which a Muslim woman IS
allowed to get married or remain married to a non-Muslim husband
after she has accepted Islam. Therefore, even if she has freedom
to practise Islam after marriage, she is NOT allowed to enter
into an inter-faith marriage.
http://www.jannah.org/sisters/intermarriage.html

“Wherever ye are, death will
find you out, even if ye are in towers built
up strong and high!” If some good befalls
them, they say, “This is from God”; but if
evil, they say, “This is from thee” (O
Prophet). Say: “All things are from God.”
But what hath come to these people, that they
fail to understand a single fact?
[AN-NISAA.078]

54

Do not inflame the situation. PLease stick to the discussion at hand.

Sentinel.

It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces towards East or West; but it is righteousness to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity, to fulfil the
contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing. Verse 177 : Surah Al-Baqarah ]

[This message has been edited by Sentinel (edited November 09, 2001).]

55

[quote]
Originally posted by Scratch:
**Why is it so difficult for all of you to admit that Islam does treat women as second rate humans (for whatever reasons, Allah knows better)? In addition to things mentioned above, the "shahadat" of a woman in a legal matter is worth only half of that of a man. This seems to be another inconceivable injustice to human mind (only those minds who dare to think, I may add).

No matter what logic you present behind the reasons for that, your best answer can only be that--it is so because Allah wanted it to be so. And since we beleive in all what He says, we have to believe this one too.

And honestly, I dont see any country other than Afghanistan, where the Islamic laws regarding women have been implemented fully. So how many of the girls on this thread are willing to live a life of an Afghani woman? I know all the guys would love to be in the dominant position of an Afghan male.

**
[/quote]

Parents are duty-bound to support and show kindness and justice to their daughters. Prophet Muhammad (P) said:

Whosoever has a daughter and does not bury her alive, does not insult her, and does not favor his son over her, Allah will enter him into Paradise. (Ahmad)

Whosoever supports two daughters until they mature, he and I will come on the day of judgment as this (and he pointed with his two fingers held together). (Ahmad)

*O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the martial gift you have given them, except when they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary, live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike a thing through which Allah brings about a great deal of good. (Qur'an 4:19)
*

A man came to Prophet Muhammad (P) asking, "O Messenger of Allah, who among the people is the most worthy of my good companionship?" The Prophet (P) said, "Your mother". The man said, "Then, who is next?" The Prophet (P) said, "Your mother". The man said, "Then, who is next?" The Prophet (P) said, "Your mother". The man further asked, "Then who is next?" Only then did the Prophet (P) say, "Your father." (Al-Bukhari)

It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces towards East or West; but it is righteousness to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity, to fulfil the
contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing. Verse 177 : Surah Al-Baqarah ]

56

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57

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58

[quote]
Originally posted by Sarah Splendor:
** A father goes to buring for not burying his daughter alive? Do you know how hilarious that sounds? For not BURYING her!

As for mothers having a lot of importance, men are not given what they should be given in this situation. I'll say this again, this is not equality.

**
[/quote]

if you are happy with 'humanitarian' religion founded last century, that would be your choice. but to my beleif, GOD best understands our psychology, our behaviour, our strengths... therefore HE is in a better position to say/tell what we should do to keep society balanced.

When Islam gives mother an upper hand, you don't like it because that does not balance etc. Why do you want to analyse one LAW all alone? why can't you look at bigger picture and add all + and - to see if it gives some balance?

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

59

if you read my statement… "women are found to be more… ", I think it says that “found”. my personal experience also tells me that women are more fond of ‘backbiting’ than men, I’m not saying that ALL WOMEN DO THAT, okay?? Also, I didn’t say that it comes from Quran.

We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?

60

[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:

**
[/quote]

if you are happy with 'humanitarian' religion founded last century, that would be your choice. but to my beleif, GOD best understands our psychology, our behaviour, our strengths... therefore HE is in a better position to say/tell what we should do to keep society balanced.

When Islam gives mother an upper hand, you don't like it because that does not balance etc. Why do you want to analyse one LAW all alone? why can't you look at bigger picture and add all + and - to see if it gives some balance?

**
[/QUOTE]

There shouldn't be an advantage for one sex in one situation and not in another. I may not want to have kids and there are many women like me who don't, does that mean I will not reap the rewards of being a woman in that area?

I'm broken