"...They are your Garments, and you are their Garments..."

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Sarah Splendour,

You say you want women & men to be treated equally, and also you admit, that women and men are not the same. Therefore, does it not follow, that to treat women & men the same would not necessarily result in them being treated equally?

Women & men are different. That is a fact. Islam states that women and men are equal, but it does not deny the existence of the inherent difference in their natures, whether physiological, psychological,etc.. Because of that, Islam accords different rights to men & women, so that they may be equal.

In Islam women & men are Different but Equal.

And I believe its important to keep in mind that Equality is not necessarily synonymous with 'Sameness' or rather being treated exactly the same.

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Justice is the keyword.

Why is Allah adressed as He ?
First of all Allah doesnt have a gender, He is totally different from his creations. Nothing that he has created resembles Him in any manner. What He is and why He is, is beyond the human brain to grasp. Any attempt in indulging in such efforts will lead to despair and a perplexed mind. His being is not comprehensible for the human mind. If man knew what God was, then His uniqueness, superiority and Greatness would seize to exist. This is a conseptual subtlety.

The reason we use He on God is purely due to grammatical reasons in the western languages. In french for instance everything is either masculine or feminine in gender, whether it be a book or anything else. Therefore God is called upon as He eventhough this is a an error (because one is inclined towards beleiving Allah is masculine).

In arabic however this error doesn't occur. There Allah is addressed in a genderless manner. In urdu, with my limited knowledge of that language, we would probably address Allah as "WOH", a genderless word.

The rest of the questions you have asked wouldn't be any point in elaborating on, as I beleive we would go into a endless circle of futile arguments. I beleive that, with you already acknowleding the differences between man and female, an open mind would surely make you realise why Allah has gives male and female different rights and duties.

~Survival of the smartest~

[This message has been edited by aMiGo (edited November 06, 2001).]

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Sara-

One word for you. ** THERAPY **

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Ok ok I take it back . . . Happy now Sarah.
Its just that your beliefs and value system are way out there which are not in accordance to I myself and many others follow.
I apologize for calling u a devils advocate. But its doesn't mean i accept you to be right.

Jitna Diya Sarkar Nay Mujko, Itni Meri Auqat Nahi, Yeh Saab Tumhara Karam Hai Aqa, Mujh Mein Aisi Koi Baat Nahin.

Love happens once . . .

[This message has been edited by CocoNut (edited November 07, 2001).]

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Why is it so difficult for all of you to admit that Islam does treat women as second rate humans (for whatever reasons, Allah knows better)? In addition to things mentioned above, the "shahadat" of a woman in a legal matter is worth only half of that of a man. This seems to be another inconceivable injustice to human mind (only those minds who dare to think, I may add).

No matter what logic you present behind the reasons for that, your best answer can only be that--it is so because Allah wanted it to be so. And since we beleive in all what He says, we have to believe this one too.

And honestly, I dont see any country other than Afghanistan, where the Islamic laws regarding women have been implemented fully. So how many of the girls on this thread are willing to live a life of an Afghani woman? I know all the guys would love to be in the dominant position of an Afghan male.

-Building From Scratch-

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[quote]
Originally posted by Sarah Splendor:
**There are differences between the sexes and the eradication of these differences would lead to the destruction of humaity (e.g. women wouldn't have kids.) But the roles assigned to women and men should be pliable and reversible, they should apply to both.

Have you read Milton's Paradise Lost where Eve follows the serpant and results in both Adam and Eve being damned to a life on Earth? Well, Eve was trying to gain the knowledge that the serpant promised she was have if she obeyed him. She wanted to be equal to Adam so that he would respect her more, love her more, instead of being weak and docile. What does that tell you? We don't realize that Eve wanted to obey the serpant to be equal (that is one reading) in terms of knowledge to Adam, all we see is that she betrayed God and Adam and resulted in their fall. Islam is from a males point of view, males don't always understand the lack of equality in this world. Women are allowed no freedom whatsoever, thats not fair, thats not equal, thats not even equality but still difference!

**
[/quote]

We're talking about Islam here. Milton was a Christian and the role of men & women depicted in this piece of fiction reflects Milton's point and view and his time. Nothing to do with Islam.

I hope she's also trying to be a devil's advocate.

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Sarah has valid arguments.

As for dresscode, women are asked to 1. Be righteous, 2. Cover their Chest 3. lenghten their garments. In other places in the Qur'an they are reminded of the same, and reminded that while the dresscode has been specified, they should not bare more than necessary.

However, men are asked to lower their gaze and maintain chastity too, so there is euqlity there.

As for multiple wives. It was ONLY a provision for the Prophet (PBUH) to illustrate for an example on the women that are lawful for marriage (33:37). Not all of them together.

[quote]
O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father's side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother's side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage - *a privilege for thee only, NOT for the (rest of) believers * - We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess - that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful(33:50)
[/quote]

Sadly there are still debates over the permission to have multiple wives even after Allah has told us it was ONLY for the prophet.

If you read and try to understand when and where Allah mentioned the 'provision of marrying multiple women' you'd realise it's in contradiction with other commandments Allah gave. Since Qur'an can't have contradictions, we have to revisit the ayat 'allowing' this multiple marriage and understand it's about orphans and the instruction to marry them off, not marrying them or other women. The ayat wouldn't make sense naoozobillah if it talked about orphans, equity and justice to them and then in the same sentence suddenly went off track and gave you a license to go willy nilly on marrying women.

As for 'beating' the wife.. Here's what Allah tells us.

[quote]
Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best (meaning) in it: those are the ones whom God has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding (39:18)
[/quote]

It's upto us to learn and read and find the various meanings of the Arabic words used in the Qur'an and use the 'best meaning'.

In the verse which supposedly allows men to 'beat' their wife, the arabic phrase is 'idhrib'. This can mean 'beat' but from other places in the Qur'an it's also been used as 'depart' or 'separate'.

The verse (4:34) which talks about this also states in the end "but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance)"

That would be a very puzzling argument after you've already 'beaten' them! I mean what could be more 'annoying' than that?

Therefore we are to understand that instead of the usual meaning of 'idhrib' we have to 'separate' or 'depart' from them. Which is also the logical solution when you have a disagreement with your partner. And if they reconcile, we are asked not to make life difficult for them.

Let's all strive to understand our religion more instead of being apologetic about it.

These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)

[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited November 07, 2001).]

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Scratch

[quote]
Why is it so difficult for all of you to admit that Islam does treat women as second rate humans (for whatever reasons, Allah knows better)?
[/quote]

Please refrain yourself from attempting to belittle other members on this forum by imposing your personal views.

The same can be said about yourself: why do you find it so difficult to agree that Islaam treats women as equal to men, and in many cases gives them more right?

Arogance is not a good thing.

I'm keeping an eye.

Sentinel.

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WHAT?!!!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/eek.gif

You have got to be joking, dude.

And if thats not the case then I have two very decent and nice things, considering the high standars of Gupshup discussion rules, to say to you:

  • You need therapy. (Now this is something that we all say to each other out of respect for each other and it goes unnoticed)

  • You are devil’s advocate. (Once again an extremely pleasant comment made for someone who dares to think differently)

I hope you dont find this arrogant.

And you are advised to keep your eyes on yourself. Your very prudent comments put you on an equal footing with me.

-Building From Scratch-

[This message has been edited by Scratch (edited November 07, 2001).]

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I'll just throw this one out there.

On the authority of Usamah bin Zaid (may Allah be pleased with him), who said:

The prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said "On the night of Meraj (Ascension) when I stood at the gate of Paradise, I observed that the bulk of those who entered it were poor people, the rich people had been refused entry. Thereafter people condemned to Hell were ordered to be pushed there, and I noticed that the majority of those who entered it were women."

(Bukhari and Muslim)

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Any views as to why?

I'll hear your suggestions first before I give you my humble opinion.

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I don’t use non-Muslim sources to understand Islam. I try my best to read, understand and learn from Quran. If you want read and beleive in anything else, its your choice, not a “Muslims” choice.

Did you know that even west (secular, democratic) society is “male dominated” ??? how? go and figure that out

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

… remember! you’ll have to use brain not media.

We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?

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Thap,

Please let's not quote books that were written 200 years after the prophet (PBUH) died.

Why didn't Allah tell us that in his book? Why did he leave such an important detail about 'women being evil' out??

Women are NOT inherently evil and men should realize, that by suppressing them, they only let their own insecurities show.

These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)

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I can see that you missed the point of this Hadith completely.

I will wait for more views.