Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism
nor am I dismissing Hinduism. Just parts that seem not to make sense with other parts that do.
And that applies toward my beliefs regarding Islam.
Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism
P.S. I understand that Krsn is the one who is speaking, but it is not clear whether he is speaking of himself or simply quoting God. If he was a prophet of God then it makes sense he would say "Me" because he is relating the words of God, because prophets do not say from themselves.
Really, so everything that Muslims follow* only because the prophet did it,* not becuase it is scriptural, are because God told Muhammad how to do all these things (dress, bathe, groom, fight, make love, eat, speak, etc)? Did God *really *have that much communication with Muhammad that didn't make it to the Quran?
Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism
And that applies toward my beliefs regarding Islam.
Peace Seminole
It is a pity that you can only tell me what you are about after hearing me and copying it.
Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism
Really, so everything that Muslims follow* only because the prophet did it,* not becuase it is scriptural, are because God told Muhammad how to do all these things (dress, bathe, groom, fight, make love, eat, speak, etc)? Did God *really *have that much communication with Muhammad that didn't make it to the Quran?
Peace Seminole
This is a red-herring response. Please address the verse 23 from Ch 9 Baghwad-Gita in my previous post, not my P.S. section.
Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism
Your only point in the post was your P.S. If your conclusion is based on "he is relating the words of God, because prophets do not say from themselves" then my reply is very much related since it appears as if your statement is not consistent with your beliefs and interpretation of scripture.
Outside of that, you made bold "but they do so in the wrong way". That doesn't, nor does the rest of what you quoted prove exclusivity in Hinduism.
For instance, I believe Muslims pray in a way that God would never demand (i.e. in the wrong way), but I don't think that preculdes them from getting to heaven.
Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism
No, you just consider everything Muhammad may or may not have ever said or did as "revelation". There is no high horse to climb on that you only follow the "official, protected words of God" since you treat hadith as revelation which gives Muslims more than their fair share of rationalizations to hide behind.
I'm disappointed in you. One with their wits about them would have pointed out that those who follow an inclusive path simply suggest that those who follow the exclusive path are following a superset of the necessary practices to please God, and that the exclusivity is not necessary. Now, of course, I had a response ready to that rebuke...but...instead, you chose to take pot shots at traditionalist Islamic thinking. In a thread on Hindu theology.
So what...do you like, look at your watch and think..."hmm....I'm overdue for a pot shot at Islam..."...
[quote]
I hate to burst your bubble, but I don't think there are many non-Muslims who need confirmation from Muslims that their beliefs are acceptable.
[/QUOTE]
Apparently there are...as they insist on others recognizing the validity of their beliefs as equally "true".
Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism
Y For instance, I believe Muslims pray in a way that God would never demand (i.e. in the wrong way), but I don't think that preculdes them from getting to heaven.
...better late than never...
Anyhow, it is saying that Islamic beliefs are wrong. The Quranic message, and the Islamic traditions, which are understood to be God's word and will, are clear on the matter...so to say Muslims are wrong on this is to say that they are wrong on the Quran...which is to say Islam is wrong...false.
Exclusivity in this context is not who is going to heaven or hell...that can be arbitrarily defined for the sake of any argument. But it is stating, in clear and uncertain terms, that another is wrong.
Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism
Your only point in the post was your P.S. If your conclusion is based on "he is relating the words of God, because prophets do not say from themselves" then my reply is very much related since it appears as if your statement is not consistent with your beliefs and interpretation of scripture.
Outside of that, you made bold "but they do so in the wrong way". That doesn't, nor does the rest of what you quoted prove exclusivity in Hinduism.
For instance, I believe Muslims pray in a way that God would never demand (i.e. in the wrong way), but I don't think that preculdes them from getting to heaven.
Peace Seminole
Perhaps you are being purposefully obtuse. Bro picoico has proven your stance as a fallacious one. The snippet I gave from the Baghwad-Gita is a double-edged one. Not only does it refute your argument that all forms of worship are acceptable, but it also states that only direct worship of God is the only acceptable one. Muslims do this but the Hindus do not.
Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism
I'm disappointed in you. One with their wits about them would have pointed out that those who follow an inclusive path simply suggest that those who follow the exclusive path are following a superset of the necessary practices to please God, and that the exclusivity is not necessary. Now, of course, I had a response ready to that rebuke...but...instead, you chose to take pot shots at traditionalist Islamic thinking. In a thread on Hindu theology.
So what...do you like, look at your watch and think..."hmm....I'm overdue for a pot shot at Islam..."...
hmmm, pointing out how Islam is practiced is a pot shot?
Someone with their wits about them would understand, by definition, those who believe in inclusivity believe those who believe in exclusivity follow practices that are not necessary. As I pointed out in the way that Muslims pray.
Apparently there are...as they insist on others recognizing the validity of their beliefs as equally "true".
[/quote]
Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism
Anyhow, it is saying that Islamic beliefs are wrong. The Quranic message, and the Islamic traditions, which are understood to be God's word and will, are clear on the matter...so to say Muslims are wrong on this is to say that they are wrong on the Quran...which is to say Islam is wrong...false.
Islamic traditions are God's word and will? Says who? I thought God's message ended with the Quran. Man decided how to practice Islam from that point.
I wouldn't say Islam is wrong. I just don't think it is the only truth. It's not for everybody. It's not necessary to follow its traditions to find a a path to God.
Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism
Seminole, why dont you just give up once. It will not harm your ego :p
Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism
Seminole, why dont you just give up once. It will not harm your ego :p
see? if he practiced Hinduism, he would know how to suppress his ego. That's why I keep telling you guys, to convert en masse into the only truly ego suppression religion ever!
Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism
Hindu religion and its many Gods
By Vasant Kulkarni
Why there are so many Gods in Hindu religion? I keep getting this question from several quarters. Actually there is not much complexity involved in explaining this aspect, if we understand some basic principles of Hinduism. We do not need to be a very big Hindu philosopher for this.
My opinion is that there are not many Gods in Hindu religion as is usually perceived by people of other religions. Actually there is only one god. There is only one god generally called “Brahman or Bhagawan”. The God has been given several names and several forms by the people following the Hindu religion.
The question is why the Hindus created so many names and forms of God if they believe in only one god?
I think there could be a few interpretations or reasons that could have prompted Hindu people to think of several forms and names.
One of such interpretation is that the god as an all capable entity, can take any form and will be available to help common people in the form that they wish to see him. Hence, whenever common people wanted see the god as creator, they created a form called “Brahma” and called him god of creator. Similarly, “Vishnu” is the god representing the sustenance of the world and “Shiva” the Destroyer. Where as “Ganapati” represents the “solver of all the troubles”, “Lakshmi” became goddess of “Wealth”, so on and so forth. God is one but can take any form, when people genuinely wish to see him in such a form. My understanding is that the Hinduism has not put any restrictions on the thinking process of individuals on which way they want to realise the existence of the God and the ultimate unification with the god, the eternal energy of this world. It is not improper, in Hindu religion, to think that the god being all powerful, can manifest into any of the myriad of “Sakara” forms including gods and goddesses.
As Prof. Jeaneane Fowler of the University of Wales College, Newport beautifully puts it in his book “Hinduism: Beliefs, Practices and Scriptures”, the relationship between the many manifest deities and the unmanifest Brahman is rather like that between the sun and its rays. One cannot experience the sun itself but one can experience its rays and the qualities, which those rays have. And, although the sun’s rays are many, ultimately, there is only one source, one sun. So the gods and goddesses of Hinduism amount to thousands, all representing the many aspects of Brahman.
Hindu thought teaches humankind to see god in every aspect of life. Thus they tried to see divinity in every force of nature they came across—the rain (Indra), the wind (Vayu), the water (Varuna), the fire (Agni) etc. By seeing themselves as a minuscule part of the infinite Brahman and by seeing the Brahman all around them, Hindu people tried to establish a divine, devout, righteous and selfless society.
Several schools of Hinduism believe that individual soul has to undergo several cycles of birth and death to reach the pest form and be ready to achieve the constant companionship (or oneness) with the god. The soul that thus undergoes several rebirths slowly attains spiritual elevation in each of those births and slowly becomes closer and closer to the supreme lord.
Rigveda says “Ekam Sat, Viprah Bahudha Vadanti” which means, “Truth is one but learned men describe it differently”. Hence this forms the theoretical basis of allowing the people or society at large to have and form their own form and name of that one supreme god.
Since Hindu scriptures consider god as one true, eternal, infinite, transcendent and omnipotent “Energy” or “Supreme Cosmic Spirit”, theoretically it represents God without any form and without any beginning and an end. It is one formless, timeless and all pervasive entity. It is the truth that is “Beyond Description” as stated by few great individuals.
Since the common man can not understand and appreciate any thing without a form, for the sake of common folk, there could be a god who has some specific form such as Ganesha, Hanuman, Vishnu etc, but for the individuals with higher order of thinking, there need not be any form to god and god might be simply an entity which is so complex, and endless that can not be understood. For some other individuals, god could simply be a concept to create an orderly social life. Thus, in Hinduism, it is perfectly acceptable that every individual—whether he is a simple ignorant common man or whether he is a well studied philosopher, to have his own form of “God”.
Hence Hinduism sets itself apart from any other religion in two very important conceptual differences discussed above, that is: God is one, but can be described by several ways and that there could be many ways to attain the unity / constant companionship of god.
It is important to note that the Hindu thought has been developed for more than 5000 years in the past and there were several significant contributions to this thought by many knowledgeable human beings.
Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism
^ Good article written from the heart. Obviously Hinduism has grown from Sanathan Dharma over a a long period unmatched by any other and th edepth and level of mature thought reflects that.
I always think of our Dharmic religion as for people first
Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism
^ Good article written from the heart. Obviously Hinduism has grown from Sanathan Dharma over a a long period unmatched by any other and th edepth and level of mature thought reflects that.
I always think of our Dharmic religion as for people first
Peace StirCrasy
Actually that article is very poor. Here is why: The writer explains his personal stance as to how many form worship developed, but explains this with no citations to historical evidence and cannot explain why many people do not consider God as One but as alternative 'Deities' and in addition they will not select which form to worship most Hindus have one main 'form' that they worship throughout their lives.
As for the single quote given in the Rigved above it has no bearing on the forms of worship, rather it explains that the same truth can be given from different angles. The conclusion is a derived one not a specific one. Also ultimately One God is indeed the premise and basis of the pure belief.
There is also allowance of class distinction. Islam has proven that there is no need for laypersons to be given 'idol' forms to worship One God. So the argument about intellectual capability is mute. It also encourages class distinction.
In addition Islam has proven how the many ways to describe God can be used to worship Him. The ways are by invoking those titles when asking from Him. When we want to be forgiven we call Him 'O Merciful', when we want to be given wealth we call Him 'O Rich' when we want to praise Him we say 'O Lord' and so on. We have no need to do more than understand the Attribute but always we think of Him as One and Alone in that Glory.
Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism
Peace StirCrasy
Actually that article is very poor. Here is why: The writer explains his personal stance as to how many form worship developed, but explains this with no citations to historical evidence and cannot explain why many people do not consider God as One but as alternative 'Deities' and in addition they will not select which form to worship most Hindus have one main 'form' that they worship throughout their lives.
Your reasoning is based on the narrow constructs of wanting "citations" and "scripture reference" whereas broadminded religious thought such as in Hinduism encourages original thought. Which is why I liked this article because it seemed derived by thinking things through oneself rather resorting to "oh I am constrained by chapter x verse y". If you recall, the latter can be dangerous as we found out about Quran confining thought by forcing the 'burn in hell' cuss.
As for the single quote given in the Rigved above it has no bearing on the forms of worship, rather it explains that the same truth can be given from different angles. The conclusion is a derived one not a specific one. Also ultimately One God is indeed the premise and basis of the pure belief.
You're joking! The author relates it splendidly in the very next sentence - "Rigveda says “Ekam Sat, Viprah Bahudha Vadanti” which means, “Truth is one but learned men describe it differently”. Hence this forms the theoretical basis of allowing the people or society at large to have and form their own form and name of that one supreme god."
There is also allowance of class distinction. Islam has proven that there is no need for laypersons to be given 'idol' forms to worship One God. So the argument about intellectual capability is mute. It also encourages class distinction.
You're all over the map on this one. First of, Islam hasn't proved anything about forms, formlessness, class distinction or lack thereof. It just makes some claims about 'idol worshippers' probably because the Prophet Mohamed was fighting a group of people who were idol worshippers - but don't tell me about formlessness because muslims have plenty of forms that they worship.
On the other hand Hinduism, extends the freedom of people connecting with God with or without a form. Thus Hinduism exhibits a fuller understanding of minds than is exhibited by Islam.
In addition Islam has proven how the many ways to describe God can be used to worship Him. The ways are by invoking those titles when asking from Him. When we want to be forgiven we call Him 'O Merciful', when we want to be given wealth we call Him 'O Rich' when we want to praise Him we say 'O Lord' and so on. We have no need to do more than understand the Attribute but always we think of Him as One and Alone in that Glory.
Again this 'we have no need to understand more than...." is a IMO the main deficiency in Islam. How will your understanding of truth be complete (assuming that is what you aspire) if you limit your thoughts ?
In worshipping Hindu Gods, there are numerous texts with names such as Sahasranaamam, Ashtangams etc. The first one lists the various attributes (as you call them) of a particular God. For example you call out "Allah the Mericful"; Similarly in a particular Sahasranaamam it would call out "Aapathbhadav" (one who helps in danger) etc.....So what?
Even political leaders are given dozens of titles...
Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism
What a watseful 'time killer this thread is!
The Hindu guy says the Muslim guy doesn't have a clue and the vice versa.
Between the two sides they have defined God as non God, no God, Yes God, all God and what God.
Ok.
Shut up alreday!
Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism
...
You're joking! The author relates it splendidly in the very next sentence - "Rigveda says “Ekam Sat, Viprah Bahudha Vadanti” which means, “Truth is one but learned men describe it differently”. Hence this forms the theoretical basis of allowing the people or society at large to have and form their own form and name of that one supreme god."
You're all over the map on this one. First of, Islam hasn't proved anything about forms, formlessness, class distinction or lack thereof. It just makes some claims about 'idol worshippers' probably because the Prophet Mohamed was fighting a group of people who were idol worshippers - but don't tell me about formlessness because muslims have plenty of forms that they worship.
On the other hand Hinduism, extends the freedom of people connecting with God with or without a form. Thus Hinduism exhibits a fuller understanding of minds than is exhibited by Islam.
Again this 'we have no need to understand more than...." is a IMO the main deficiency in Islam. How will your understanding of truth be complete (assuming that is what you aspire) if you limit your thoughts ?
In worshipping Hindu Gods, there are numerous texts with names such as Sahasranaamam, Ashtangams etc. The first one lists the various attributes (as you call them) of a particular God. For example you call out "Allah the Mericful"; Similarly in a particular Sahasranaamam it would call out "Aapathbhadav" (one who helps in danger) etc.....So what?
Even political leaders are given dozens of titles...
Peace again
First part did not deserve a response.
Second part ... Islam has indeed proven that laypersons do not need idols to worship God. It has proven it by showing practically that all Muslims lay or otherwise worship One God and do so together in the Masajid.
Now you have introduced a new criterion to our existence in this world ... which is to somehow gain complete understanding of truth. If it is truth you need to look for then you can begin by telling the Hindus that there is only One God and that they need not worship their idol forms. Rather worshipping directly is the best way as stated in Baghwad Gita ... until you do not tell them the truth then your search for understanding complete truth is futile.
No in reality Allah (SWT) is understood by His Attributes, and that is enough. If God is truly One for Hindus then you will accept that the Attribute you appoint to one 'Deity' should be transferrable to another, unless the name itself is the Attribute, in which case should never be perceived as a separate entity from the One God.
I don't really care who are given titles, I was explaining how Attributes of God are ways to understand Him and that idol worship is not nearly necessary nor is it advised as per Hindu scripture.
Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism
No need but I want to make sure you understand you mispoke there when you said the Rg Veda quote has no bearing…". Happens.
And Hindus have proved lay persons can pray with idols and can pray without, and did that several thousand years before. Big deal!
new criterion? just read the very first post that started this thread - the ‘seeking of truth’ is the meaning of the quote that you so glibly dismissed as having no bearing.
That is the difference, We are not pushy. Let those who want to worship with idols let them do so; let those who don’t need it, so be it! It is called using ones own faculties, exercising the mind and arriving at truth. Half baked knowledge of Bhagwad Gita is still something better than none, so good for you.
This is a childish argument. When the difference is the form, you want attributes of form to be transferable across forms? Remember you had asked if anyother religion can describe God just through attributes as Quran did and I showed you there are numerous such Hindu descriptions.
A bicycle is simpler to understand but its capabilities are limited in comparison to, say a modern car.
I agree idol worship is not necessary. Doesn’t make it wrong and people who like that are as good as those who don’t.
You are also mixed up about titles and attributes