Many Christians and Muslims are surprised to see Hindus pray to stone idols; many of them in fact. They term this pagan worship. We must understand that there is no such thing as idol worship in Hinduism; it is worship through idols.
From the form to the formless!
PARAMAHAMSA SRI NITHYANANDA
TIMES NEWS NETWORK THURSDAY, MAY 03, 2007 12:00:01 AM]
Idol worship is an important belief of Hinduism. Many people are surprised to see people pray to stone idols; many of them in fact. They term this pagan worship. We must understand that there is no such thing as idol worship in Hinduism; it is worship through idols.
The eastern mystics have always maintained that God is one, all pervading energy, beyond form and formless, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. Let me ask you honestly, the moment I say formless what comes to your mind? The sky, an ocean, an open space comes to our mind. Again it’s a form, but it’s not described by length, breadth and depth.
Please be very clear, unless we experience it, we cannot relate with something formless. So as an initial way to relate some forms are created. It’s a technique. For example after learning to ride a bike, we can remove our hands from the handlebar and ride the bike, but initially we need to hold it and learn.
It is just the same way, when we enter the spiritual journey. In the end everyone experiences the formless, but at the initial level we need a form to relate to. As long as we think we are a form, we can’t relate with the formless. Most of us think we have a form, a body with a set boundary.
This is not so. It is a difficult idea to grasp initially. As a result of this, even if we think of something as formless, we will again be giving it a form, may be a sky or ocean, something vast, but again it is going to be one more form. If you say the formless just is, it’s an experience.
If you experience it then it’s all right. You don’t need anything. But many cannot start with that experience. We can only start from where we are. I have seen many people who want to start straight away with the formless but they don’t feel totally connected.
That is why in eastern religions we have the initial step as worship through idols as a way of relating and connecting. Once we master that, we can feel it everywhere. At least I can say from my experience, a person in the initial level cannot relate to the formless directly. It is because it takes some maturity to relate to the formless. May we all begin with the form and become the formless!
Before, I can go ahead i first have to say its a remarkable article for the ones who believe in worship through idols, but if given a chance for a rebutall and if I had to provide an opinion, this is it would be. Another reminder, i am not a scholar but a student so I stand for corrections.
Just a thought, its amazing these articles are found in economic times. :halo:
Agreed, thats what we Muslims stand for why worship through idols, worship God directly, thats what our most important invitation is too all the non-muslims, and to some muslims too(no pun intended).
Basically, we all know you dont worship idols but through idols act as an intermediary, no doubt they are some hindus today who worship only one God.
Let me add this verse of the Quran, infact the situation you are talking about is present in the Islamic history and in Prophetic tradition.
10:31
Say: Who gives you sustenance from the heaven and the earth? Or Who controls the hearing and the sight? And Who brings forth the living from the dead, and brings forth the dead from the living? And Who regulates the affairs? Then they will say: Allah. Say then: Will you not then guard (against evil)?
Amongst the Prophetic tradition, i will just paraphrase, what I vividly remember. If anyone performing Umra and Hajj in the Pre Islamic period.
The Arabs would say Allaah we have come to your call, there is no God (positioning Allaah to be the supreme God, as is in believed by the Hindus too) other then you, but only those associated partners which you have.
Prophet only came to this world to eliminate the bold part.
Now let me go about the rebutall after, I have hinted, about what the normal muslim pysche about the Hindus.
As explained, in my introductory part, i think that should suffice this respected Gentleman. But still let me add something to it from the Glorious Quran
Thats what Allaah is questioning the idols you worship,have they created a fly the answer is no, so created its Allaah so worship Allaah directly. In another verse
*046.004 *
Say: Have you considered what you call upon besides Allah? Show me what they have created of the earth, or have they a share in the heavens? Bring me a book before this or traces of knowledge, if you are truthful.
Agreed, its not amongst the eastern even pre-islamic period this was practiced in the land of Arabia but the Arabs considered this to be the religion of Abraham exactly called the Haniffiya.
But explaining by each attribute above:
God is one agreed and everone believes in it, but problem exists with submitting your will to God, in the sense all your decision to one God.
If the scholar agrees God is got all this attributes then, what’s his disagreement upon shall be answered later in detail the concept of form to formless. But before that I am against teh omnipresent concept of God.
Just before my rebuttal to next paragraph let me quote this verse from the Holy Quran
*059.022 * SHAKIR: He is Allah besides Whom there is no god; the Knower of the unseen and the seen; He is the Beneficent, the Merciful
*059.023 * SHAKIR: He is Allah, besides Whom there is no god; the King, the Holy, the Giver of peace, the Granter of security, Guardian over all, the Mighty, the Supreme, the Possessor of every greatness Glory be to Allah from what they set up (with Him).
*059.024 * SHAKIR: He is Allah the Creator, the Maker, the Fashioner; His are the most excellent names; whatever is in the heavens and the earth declares His glory; and He is the Mighty, the Wise.
Now this is where anyone gets stuck, do we really need to experience the created things of God, is this itself not an experience (such as God’s creation, we ourselves). But we actually see thats the form the creation of God through clouds, rain and other forms as defined by the author we muslims believe this is the ultimate and this is created by Allaah, again Allaah in the glorious Quran mentions if you still want to worship through idols
*035.014 * SHAKIR: If you call on them they shall not hear your call, and even if they could hear they shall not answer you; and on the resurrection day they will deny your associating them (with Allah); and none can inform you like the One Who is Aware.
The Arabs also mentioned we do not mention the idols but the spirit which is what we worship. In that case shall I say the Muslims have already crossed the level ahead and worshipp the formless, and we can still relate to the formless only by this verse in the Quran.
Have they been created by themselves or created by someone
Now he is talking about the same aspect not necessary its very opinionated again. As Muslims we dont need this form when we bow down in prayers we have nothing in mind not even the shape of Allaah from what i can define is these four verses of the Quran
*112.001 * SHAKIR: Say: He, Allah, is One.
*112.002 * SHAKIR: Allah is He on Whom all depend.
*112.003 * SHAKIR: He begets not, nor is He begotten.
*112.004 * SHAKIR:And none is like Him.
The bold part above clearly mentions none is like him, none is comparable to him if even at one chance we believe and comprehend that Allaah is any form then that particular entity ceases to be God, according to the theological definitions too.
Like i told you he has his own opinion, and I confirmed muslims dont need such experience of form to formless, as we direclty pray to God as he is All hearer, and all seer and you and I agree with it.
Again its his own opinion in that case I should be Thankful to Allaah and Muslims too should thank Allaah, coz we have already mastered this art of relating to formless.
Like m entioned in my first sentency this is my rebuttal to the scholar and not to condemn the Hindus, this is my honest effort from the Quran and Prophetic tradition with my limited knowledge and time.
May Allaah forgive me as all good things are from God, and wrong mentioned is from Satan and Me.
In its purest form you can think of Hinduism as monotheism (worship of the ultimate divine creator), but I think that fell apart once people started praying to avatars which manifested as aspects of God.
To give it an Islamic twist: imagine if, in the future, muslims started praying to and worshipping each of the 99 names of Allah as though they consisted of separate divinities! That sort of thing has happened to Hinduism, as far as I can see…
In its purest form you can think of Hinduism as monotheism (worship of the ultimate divine creator), but I think that fell apart once people started praying to avatars which manifested as aspects of God.
To give it an Islamic twist: imagine if, in the future, muslims started praying to and worshipping each of the 99 names of Allah as though they consisted of separate divinities! That sort of thing has happened to Hinduism, as far as I can see…
Tellme how will we pray 99 names of Allaah in which they are so many abstract words
Raheeem, Rahman, Ghafoor, The truth, The final, The first, The mutakhabir can we worship them too, i believe one we understand the 99 names of Allaah, people will stop committing shirk and you say through this we will commit shirk.
Just my 2cents out of topic though, any further please PM me brother.
JazakAllaah
No, my brother, you misunderstand. I made a comparison so you could understand my point about Hinduism. Hinduism started off as pure monotheism in the same way we believe in Allah as one. But Hindus started worshipping different aspects of God as separate avatars. And I compared it by likening it to people worshipping the 99 names of Allah as separate deities instead of Allah alone.
Hindus basically did that! In no way do I suggest that calling Allah (for example) Ya Rahim makes you an idolater!
I think what we all need to understand is that Hinduism/Sanatan Dharma is not like any other religion when it comes to "who started it" and "whe was it started".. since its so ancient, hardcore facts are not available on exactly how it was started and what wre the initial practices, and hwo they changed with times..
I've studied some Hinduism because one of my parents is Hindu.. and I can say it with good confidence that this article is correct.. idols are supposed to be a way to concentrate your 'worship' or as the article says "worship through idols"... but ofcourse when you involve a billion ppl, thousands of years and hundreds of different sects, there are going to be diversions from any 'original way'.. Also, Hinduism as a religion has been very close to Art (music, dramas/plays, sculpture).. and all forms of art have been incorporated within the religion in different ways.. this would have definitely encouraged the idol concept..
idols are supposed to be a way to concentrate your 'worship'
So, for example, a muslim turning towards Makkah and facing the Ka‘aba concentrates his/her worship, or a Zoroastrian praying towards a flame?
^^Exactly...if someone finds it easier to worship looking at a sculpture/flame/sun .. then why not? I'm not a practicing Hindu, I don't indulge in idol worship.. but I understand it..
Please be very clear, unless we experience it, we cannot relate with something formless. So as an initial way to relate some forms are created. It’s a technique.
**For curious/scientific/physicist minds here is a saying of
Hazret Ali
"God is not of any of those things which you could precieve"
"Kuda ko jesa tum sochty ho woh wesa naheen hy"
I love this saying ..
Good article Denada I always like it when any of hindu brothers opens up about their religion.**
if hindus who think that God looks like rama or kali or whatever and bow infront of its image or idol, then i would term it as idol worship ONLY. I have no ambiguity in it no matter who explains it or justifies it. If there is anyone, whether he is a hindu,muslim or whatever, thinks that God is some extra cosmic entity and while praying imagines that God is sitting somewhere in sky or mosque or temple, then he or she is a clear cut idol/image worshipper.
this looks rational. but still want to ask this person one question. does he believes in avatars and all?..if yes, then he himself is not worshiping THAT one omnipresent, formless, all pervading energy!
Actually god in Hinduism is analogous to Bhagavan which vaguely means great soul. Brahman ( !Brahmin) is considered as supreme entity to which even trimurthi (Brahma,vishnu,shiva) meditates.
For The Times
From the earliest dawn of religious consciousness in human beings, people have implicitly attempted to realize the Divine by the use of various intermediary icons.
Such vehicles of worship and meditation have included divine images, sacred relics of saints and hallowed objects of many descriptions. The use of images as a path through which finite humanity can approach the Infinite has been the overwhelming norm in the history of the world’s many religions.
In Hinduism there is no explicit reference to iconic worship in the ancient scriptures called Vedas. The later scriptures, like Puranas and the Agamas, have descriptions of worship, both in the houses and temples, using figurines derived from divine characters in the Puranas, called deities. This relevance adds sanctity while eliminating arbitrariness from the science of image veneration.
Such representations of God in anthropomorphic forms like Ganesha, Siva, Krishna and others are called Murtis. There are very exacting physical specifications for sculpting murtis, special rituals to consecrate them as well as specific sacred incantations to be chanted during the ceremony called Prana Pratishta.
Ancient Hindu seers and other teachers of Vedanta advocated the spiritual practice of fostering loving devotion (Bhakti), to a personal deity with auspicious attributes as the simplest means for God realization.
There is a child-like innocence and purity of approach when a person stands reverently in front of his or her deity and bows before it in total submission, which qualities are hard to achieve by a human who otherwise is grounded in materialism.
If the deity remains mute without any response, which generally is the case, it would not shake his confidence or faith. A devout Hindu will be contented with the mere fact that his prayers have been heard and accepted. His firm, ceaseless and unshakeable love of God, which surpasses every other form of affection and attachment, and which is based on and inspired by a full knowledge of His transcendent majesty, can be effectively expressed only when he is in front of an entity which often resembles himself. In his realm of imagination it elevates him closer to his beloved deity thus uplifting his spiritual empowerment.
Are Hindus actually idol worshipers? The term “idol” refers specifically to an image that is made up, concocted in the mind of its maker, and then claimed to be a divinity and not as a result of the teachings of sacred scriptures. Hindus are not idol worshipers because the deities venerated in their prayers are not conceived by the worshipers.
At the same time, the concept of deities does not represent polytheistic philosophy since they are mere representations of the various aspects of one and the same Supreme Brahman.
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Thank you for posting this article, however, I can't help make some key observations. So here they are:
1) Idol worship must be wrong even according to the Hindus or else there wouldn't be all this self-sympathy and justification that the method of worship adopted by Hindus is actualy NOT idol worship.
2) Specifically I believe Hindus have not done enough to clarify the latent problems in idol worship to their own people. Some Hindus will still say today that their murti is God and they worship it, however, the reasoning given by the learned is that these are forms that are not God in themselves.
3) Different castes tend to have different murtis and this seems to be another way of controlling mindset and masses. Perhaps the puranas had this in mind?
4) Nothing has been mentioned here about prostrating to parents and other people such as gurus. Prostration is a form of worship.
5) The pagan idol worshippers of Makkah to which Islam calls idol worshippers, did not make their own idols and then worship them, they had set people to make them, they too had rituals and ceremonies and they bought and sold them as icons of trade.
6) Levelling the playing field - I believe the acceptability of idols/murti has been based on the dogma of the Hindu scriptures and how they have been understood. According to what little I know Hindus believe that God made creation from Himself. That all of creation is part and connected to God. Actually Muslims also believe in a connection to God, but we also at the same time assert a very distinct separation. That God has the unique power of Creating something from nothing - True Creation Power. To create bydrawing from oneself is a limitation in such an ability. However, the counter argument often states that One God is a limitation on the idea that He can be everywhere. For Muslims the directly objective rational constructs are not allowed to be compromised such that One cannot equal to Many. I guess evidence needs to be found in the Hindu scriptures that shows that God is above the Heavens. Also more research needs to be done nature of Creation itself.
7) I do believe idolatory is not acceptable to both Hindus and Muslims and for this reason more effort needs to be made to reconcile our differences. We need to get to the bottom of why or how the murti tradition had developed and whether there is a correlation between them and mind control of masses.
Thank you for posting this article, however, I can't help make some key observations. So here they are:
1) Idol worship must be wrong even according to the Hindus or else there wouldn't be all this self-sympathy and justification that the method of worship adopted by Hindus is actualy NOT idol worship.
2) Specifically I believe Hindus have not done enough to clarify the latent problems in idol worship to their own people. Some Hindus will still say today that their murti is God and they worship it, however, the reasoning given by the learned is that these are forms that are not God in themselves.
Hindus think god is formless(clearly mentioned in bhagavad Gita), but his incarnations have a physical form, so the confusion
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3) Different castes tend to have different murtis and this seems to be another way of controlling mindset and masses. Perhaps the puranas had this in mind?
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Never heard of such a thing.
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4) Nothing has been mentioned here about prostrating to parents and other people such as gurus. Prostration is a form of worship.
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No, its a form of showing respect.
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5) The pagan idol worshippers of Makkah to which Islam calls idol worshippers, did not make their own idols and then worship them, they had set people to make them, they too had rituals and ceremonies and they bought and sold them as icons of trade.
6) Levelling the playing field - I believe the acceptability of idols/murti has been based on the dogma of the Hindu scriptures and how they have been understood. According to what little I know Hindus believe that God made creation from Himself. That all of creation is part and connected to God. Actually Muslims also believe in a connection to God, but we also at the same time assert a very distinct separation. That God has the unique power of Creating something from nothing - True Creation Power. To create bydrawing from oneself is a limitation in such an ability. However, the counter argument often states that One God is a limitation on the idea that He can be everywhere. For Muslims the directly objective rational constructs are not allowed to be compromised such that One cannot equal to Many. I guess evidence needs to be found in the Hindu scriptures that shows that God is above the Heavens. Also more research needs to be done nature of Creation itself.
7 I do believe idolatory is not acceptable to both Hindus and Muslims and for this reason more effort needs to be made to reconcile our differences. We need to get to the bottom of why or how the murti tradition had developed and whether there is a correlation between them and mind control of masses.
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Nothing mysterious about it. idol worship too is an influence of Buddhism. And hindus don't see it as a crime as most hindus do have commonsense and don't open their 'holy books" to whether music is a horrendous crime. So idol worship among hindus will not stop and hindus don't see the need to "reconcile their differences" with muslims
I will never understand why so many muslims and some hindus feel the need to convince each other of the others' ways.
So what. If muslims say formless but do have to imagine a form?
So what if hindus say they worship through a form?
If you believe in God it is your business how what and when. All other arguments are brainless, whether it comes from a 'learned man' or from a holy book.
Believe in God - great. Don't try to equate your God with anothers, don't try to prove superiority because there aint any. It is that kind of idiocy that has made islam into a violent practice and I hope other religions don't become that too.