There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

[psyah]

Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

I will never understand why so many muslims and some hindus feel the need to convince each other of the others' ways.

So what. If muslims say formless but do have to imagine a form?

So what if hindus say they worship through a form?

If you believe in God it is your business how what and when. All other arguments are brainless, whether it comes from a 'learned man' or from a holy book.

Believe in God - great. Don't try to equate your God with anothers, don't try to prove superiority because there aint any. It is that kind of idiocy that has made islam into a violent practice and I hope other religions don't become that too.

Peace Tariq Akhtar

"Don't try to equate your God with anothers" is not a tangible request. Either there is God according to a given definition or there is God according to another definition. Both cannot be true at the same time.

To clarify God is unlike definitions that we can impose on Him. We can only understand Him in given ways, those ways have to be scriptural. It appears that a lot of Hindu scriptures are entirely compatible with Islamic understanding of Deity, however, other parts of the Hindu scriptures clearly go against the dictates of monotheism in the Vedas. So far all Hindus here still are talking about One God ... that God this or God that so it is clear that polytheism in the strictest sense has been forsaken.

Islam merely goes one step further and eliminates all actions that are construed as worship such as prostration to people making them exclusive to God. I can understand that some people say that parents are like God, some people emphasise the 'God' in the sentence others emphasise the 'like' and others still say that parents are nothing like God because nothing can be like God. However, at the same time even in Islam you will get the comparisons and analogies. But we understand these are just analogies and not intended to be 'like' but rather 'so that we can understand in terms of what we are already accustomed to'. If that is the case with Hindus then in reality there is little difference between the learned Hindus and the Muslims, but the problem of polytheism amongst the masses in the Hindus is still prevalent and they still have beleifs that are very different to the learned few.

[StirCrasy]

Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

If that is the case with Hindus then in reality there is little difference between the learned Hindus and the Muslims, but the problem of polytheism amongst the masses in the Hindus is still prevalent and they still have beleifs that are very different to the learned few.

You are assuming the only or the primary difference between Hindus and Muslims is how they conceptualize God. In Sanathana Dharma from which Hinduism emerged, God is a part of the Dharma and a means to an end. The development of the individual's spirituality is about clarity in thinking, honesty in action and sathvih in nature.

Good people in all religions or those without practicing any religion, will be the same because what we call good is based on how they deal with other people as opposed to what God they worship or how they do it.

That is why even if you perform your namaz 5 times, visit mecca every year and sport a beard as prescribed, those are just show and useless if underneath all that you think less of the non-muslim or want to punish somebody who chose to leave islam etc.

[Sable]

Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

I will never understand why so many muslims and some hindus feel the need to convince each other of the others' ways.

So what. If muslims say formless but do have to imagine a form?

So what if hindus say they worship through a form?

If you believe in God it is your business how what and when. All other arguments are brainless, whether it comes from a 'learned man' or from a holy book.

Believe in God - great. Don't try to equate your God with anothers, don't try to prove superiority because there aint any. It is that kind of idiocy that has made islam into a violent practice and I hope other religions don't become that too.

i like the way you summed it all up in a few lines.. There wouldnt be wars and fights if everyone thought like this.. It is one's personal business how and who they worship..

[psyah]

Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

@StirCrasy

You are assuming the only or the primary difference between Hindus and Muslims is how they conceptualize God. In Sanathana Dharma from which Hinduism emerged, God is a part of the Dharma and a means to an end. The development of the individual’s spirituality is about clarity in thinking, honesty in action and sathvih in nature.

Good people in all religions or those without practicing any religion, will be the same because what we call good is based on how they deal with other people as opposed to what God they worship or how they do it.

That is why even if you perform your namaz 5 times, visit mecca every year and sport a beard as prescribed, those are just show and useless if underneath all that you think less of the non-muslim or want to punish somebody who chose to leave islam etc.

Peace StirCrasy

Where in the puranas does it say that God is part of the Dharma? Isn’t that like saying that God is a figment of ones imagination?

And how does this reconcile with dictates in the Vedas?

http://www.voi.org/books/hvhb/ch1.htm
According to Holy Vedas, God is one, not many :

Verily He is one
Single, indivisible, supreme reality.
- Atharva Veda 13/4/20

Oneness of God is the axis round which the philosophy of Vedas revolves. None but God alone reigns and rules over the whole universe. True kingship belongs to Creator of the cosmos. He alone is the Supreme Sovereign of the universe :

He is the sole sovereign
Of the universe.
- Rig Veda 6/36/4

There is none who equals him. He is One, without parallel :

He is one, unparalleled
Through His wondrous, mighty
And formidable laws and deeds.
- Rig Veda 8/1/27

Vedic philosophy does not approve of polytheism. There are no gods except one God, who is the Lord of lords. Only He is worthy to be worshipped and fit to be adored :

There is only One
Who ought to be adored
By the people.
- Atharva Veda 2/2/1

Holy Vedas declare that God alone is the unchallenged Lord of the whole creation. All sorts of eulogy, adoration and prayer befit Him only. Man does not deserve to be eulogised and deified by man. The deification of man by man is not permitted by Vedic religion. Therefore, it behoves man to worship the Great Lord of the cosmos only :

O friends,
Adore none else but Providence
Who is supreme bestower of bliss
And thus thou wilt not suffer;
Eulogise Him in congregation
And sing songs of His glory repeatedly
- Sam Veda 242

God is singular, but his names are plural. All the epithets mentioned in Holy Vedas are ascribed to one God, who is Creator of the cosmos. Shiva, Shankara, Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh, Ganesh, Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, Yama etc. are the epithets of one Supreme Being, who is formless, featureless, birthless and bodiless. He is unborn, eternal, immortal and everlasting. He has no agents, no intermediaries, no representatives, no incarnations and no partners. He has neither father, nor mother. He has neither wife, nor sons, nor daughters. He has no attachment. But He is Benevolent Father of all his children, and imparts equal love impartially to all his creatures. He is kind to all, cruel to, none. His first name is Om. But He is evoked and adored by several other names which are written in Vedas

He is One Brahma
The Creator of the cosmos
Who pervades and protects
And enlightens aft beings
He is One Supreme Entity
Whom sages call by various names
Such as Indra, the glorious
Mitra, the benign friend
Varuna, the greatest, the noblest
Agni, the resplendent, the bright
Yama, the dispenser of justice
Matarishwa, the almighty.
- Rig Veda 1/164/46

He is Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient. He is All-powerful and All-pervasive. He pervades, permeates and penetrates all things and all hearts

He, the all-pervasive
Pervades all beings
Within and without.
- Yajur Veda 32/8

He reigns magnificently and munificently over the whole universe. He is unparalleled and unequalled emperor of the cosmos created by Him. He is the One and the sole Sovereign of all creation, animate and inanimate. He is the unchallenged Master of. the whole cosmos :

Thou art Lord of lords.
- Rig Veda 1/94/13

God does not have face, form, features, signs and symbols. He has no body. He is formless, featureless and bodiless. He is birthless and deathless. When He does not take birth, He cannot assume body. He cannot be seen, He can be felt. Hence no picture or portrait, idol or statue of God can be made.

God has no image.
- Yajur Veda 32/3

[ummm]

Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

Bhagavd Gita Chapter 11:

1. If the effulgence of a thousand suns were to appear in the sky simultaneously, it might compare somewhat with the splendour of tha great form.

13) Then the son of Pandu saw the entire Universe with its manifold divisions united there in the body of God.( Notice: the Universeis god/ part of god.)

16) I see you with many hands, stomachs,mouths and eyes, possessing infinite forms on every side; O lord of the Universe, O you of Universal form, I see however, neither your end, nor your beginning.

These verses clearly indicate that according to hinduism, God DOES have a form: but that form is incomprehensible.

[indopak]

Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

The Vedas:

6. Has God a form or is He formless?

A.- He is formless, because if He possesses a form He could never be Omnipresent, nor, therefore Omniscient, since a finite substance can possess only finite attributes, actions and nature. Besides, He could never be free from hunger and thirst, heat and cold, disease, imperfections and injuries. This proves, therefore, that God is formless, If He were to possess a body, another person would be required to make the different organs of His body, such as eyes, ears and the like, for He, who is the product of the combination of the different parts, must have an intelligent formless maker. Here if it be urged that God Himself made His own body simply by willing it, this too goes to prove that He was formless before He made His body. It is clear, therefore, that God is never embodied. Being without a body He is able to make the visible universe out of invisible causes.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3440/chapterseven.html#35

[StirCrasy]

Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

Psyah - why do you need a specific statement in the Puranas to understand anything? Unlike Islam where people seem to seek a specific sanction for each and everything, we don't.

If you go through various Vedas, Vedantas, Puranas and Suktams, you are bound to find a variety of statements about Oneness of God, Formfull/formlessness of God, importance and non-importance of rituals and worship, and methods of transcending all including all these.

My point to you on my post you quoted is simply that you cannot assign that learned Hindus and learned Muslims are alike only based on whether they believe in one God or formlessness of God or not.

It does seem fair to conclude that the Vedas and the Gita want to impress upon all that there is but one God and that it is foolish to fight over what form that God takes or doesn't take.

Also keep in mind - the concept of brahman and the Hiranyagarbha - the actor and the vessel - from which all emerged is different from what we generally mean by God.

Finally - how is God bound by Dharma? it is a fair question; there are many many ways to elaborate thus but here are a few that come to the top of the mind:

• in some Hindu thought, creation, sustenance and termination are the duties of Brahma (different from brahman and brahmins), Vishu and Shiva; this is now generally believed so

• Indra is worshipped as a God, more prevalently in the past, less so now - the number of legends where he has gotten into trouble with his Dharma

• Above all, the very Brahma, the creator is replaced in cycles (giving rise to the concept of a Brahma era consisting of n number of yuga cycles, with each cycle being made of 4 yugas, each yuga being 100000 times the square root (or some such similar formula) of some constant etc.....

[Sable]

Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

@indopak

The Vedas:

6. Has God a form or is He formless?

A.- He is formless, because if He possesses a form He could never be Omnipresent, nor, therefore Omniscient, since a finite substance can possess only finite attributes, actions and nature. Besides, He could never be free from hunger and thirst, heat and cold, disease, imperfections and injuries. This proves, therefore, that God is formless, If He were to possess a body, another person would be required to make the different organs of His body, such as eyes, ears and the like, for He, who is the product of the combination of the different parts, must have an intelligent formless maker. Here if it be urged that God Himself made His own body simply by willing it, this too goes to prove that He was formless before He made His body. It is clear, therefore, that God is never embodied. Being without a body He is able to make the visible universe out of invisible causes.

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Excuse my pure bluntness but these ‘ifs’ and ‘buts’ are formed by the laws of the earth.. universe doesn’t follow the laws of this earth.. why can’t there be a substance that is infinite.. and how do we know that there is or isnt any present.. other than this earth… and same reasoning for all the other postulates…

These objections are quite childlike to me..

[Seminole]

Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

psyah,

It seems I am not the only one around here who is unfairly dismissive of another religion at the same time as being an authority on it, complete with understanding and opinion. LOL

[picoico]

Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

That is why even if you perform your namaz 5 times, visit mecca every year and sport a beard as prescribed, those are just show and useless if underneath all that you think less of the non-muslim or want to punish somebody who chose to leave islam etc.

Muslims think rituals are useless if not backed by faith, too...

The difference here is that Muslims feel there is a path to God...and we are exclusivist. From what you say Hindus claim to be, to a degree, pantheists and recognize many possible paths to God. The problem here is that such claims are useless in Hindu-Muslim dialog as both must necessarily exclude the other as valid paths.

You can't agree with a particular path being one of many paths to God, when that path itself is exclusivists.

I also don't think it's much better thiking less of Muslims, regardless of their deeds, who think their path is exclusive...for all the talk of toleration and openness to others ideas, in the end you just excluded a path based on salient qualities of the path rather than individual deeds...and this itself can just as well be a source of bigotry (and I think those who are defending imagined slights on Hinduism on this very thread exhibit this behavior quite nicely) as any other exclusivist ideology.

It sounds, to me, you're demanding affirmation from others who don't share your faith...which I think is bizzare.

[Seminole]

Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

The old "being intolerant of intolerance = intolerance" agrument is also used a lot by Christian fundamentalists and political conservatives in the US. It never made sense to me then or now.

[picoico]

Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

I don't care to comment on if indeed Hindus are idol worshippers or not...I'd gather that the nuance and sophistication of thought on the matter varies greatly, as we could expect among members of any other faith on religious nuances.

But, it is an unusual optic for one to proclaim to be worshiping one God but praying to to idols, each of which has a distinct appearance, and a distinct anthropomorphized persona.

The problem I have here, in terms of understanding, is how can we distinguish between these idols being aspects of God, and God in fact being a composite entity formed from multiple demi-Gods, or sub-deities (which would NOT be monotheism)?

[picoico]

Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

On the contrary, I don't intend to pretend to be "tolerant" to the degree other people here fancy themselves...I simply suggest that those who arrogantly claim to be are in fact not.

The semantics is clear. The fact is, everyone is 'intolerant'....but the point being, to be exclusivist is not necessarily to be intolerant. To claim such is to be hypocritical.

But there is more to that.

The statement being made by such a flippant statement, then, is that not all beleifs are equal. That's all fine and dandy...but when one claims to be inclusive in their beliefs, and then makes that very statement...well then, I'm sorry...they are just as exclusivist as anyone else...in fact worse..."all paths are equal...except...that one".

[Seminole]

Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

What a bizarre point of view. When one says "there are many paths to God, we don't pretend to have the exclusive path" that means your path can also lead you to God. Sorry, but those people are not as exclusivist as those who say "our path is the ONLY path".

IMO to be exclusivist in such a way isn't necessary as intolerant as it is ignorant.

[picoico]

Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

What a bizarre point of view. When one says "there are many paths to God, we don't pretend to have the exclusive path" that means your path can also lead you to God. Sorry, but those people are not as exclusivist as those who say "our path is the ONLY path".

Bzzt..wrong. The people are saying that such paths DO NOT lead to God...because they are exclusivist. Which is itself being exclusivist and saying exactly what those who are derided for not being inclusive are saying. Get it?

[quote]

IMO to be exclusivist in such a way isn't necessary as intolerant as it is ignorant.
[/quote]

A non-statement as it presumes you are in a position of knowledge.

[Seminole]

Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

@picoico

Bzzt..wrong. The people are saying that such paths DO NOT lead to God...because they are exclusivist. Which is itself being exclusivist and saying exactly what those who are derided for not being inclusive are saying. Get it?

Well then I disagree. While being exclusvist implies ignorance, intolerance or just not as smart or righteous as they they think they, surely in and of itself does not mean they are not on a path to God. Maybe they are just ignorant about just this one thing. It does't mean they are going to hell.

[quote]
A non-statement as it presumes you are in a position of knowledge.
[/quote]
Wrong. Exclusivists presume they are in a position of knowledge. That is what makes my statement correct.

[picoico]

Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

@Seminole

Well then I disagree.

Wow. What a surprise.

[quote]

While being exclusvist implies ignorance, intolerance or just not as smart or righteous as they they think they

[/quote]

Nope...just means we don't need the ego strokage of others affirming our beliefs...it gives us the comfort to move on...it means we don't have to hide behind pseudo-scientific rationalizations (which we conveniently drop when it comes to OTHER faiths), or have pretentions to religious knowledge other than what has been revealed.

[quote]

, surely in and of itself does not mean they are not on a path to God.

[/quote]

If a critical part of that path is to remain exclusivist, then it gets back to the consistency problem. Either it is right, or wrong. There is no middle road (again...being exclusivist is critical), except for arguments sake or fanciful lecturing.

[Seminole]

Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

@picoico

Nope...just means we don't need the ego strokage of others affirming our beliefs...it gives us the comfort to move on...it means we don't have to hide behind pseudo-scientific rationalizations (which we conveniently drop when it comes to OTHER faiths), or have pretentions to religious knowledge other than what has been revealed.

No, you just consider everything Muhammad may or may not have ever said or did as "revelation". There is no high horse to climb on that you only follow the "official, protected words of God" since you treat hadith as revelation which gives Muslims more than their fair share of rationalizations to hide behind.

I hate to burst your bubble, but I don't think there are many non-Muslims who need confirmation from Muslims that their beliefs are acceptable. It's not their religion, after all, that calls for the execustion of those who leave the fold or commit blasphemy.

[psyah]

Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

psyah,

It seems I am not the only one around here who is unfairly dismissive of another religion at the same time as being an authority on it, complete with understanding and opinion. LOL

Peace Seminole

I am no authority on Hinduism or Sanathana Dharma, and I openly admit that. I am merely looking for evidence to support the ideas that are being presented. The Vedas seem to have concepts that are closely linked with Tawhid. So by far am I dismissing the Hindu faith. Rather I am trying to come to common ground. So nice try but you cannot really apply my own statement on myself. I am neither telling Hindus what they aught to believe ... the thread was opened by a Hindu who believes that there is no idol worship in Hinduism nor am I dismissing Hinduism. Just parts that seem not to make sense with other parts that do.

[psyah]

Re: There is no Idol Worship in Hinduism

@Seminole

No, you just consider everything Muhammad may or may not have ever said or did as "revelation". There is no high horse to climb on that you only follow the "official, protected words of God" since you treat hadith as revelation which gives Muslims more than their fair share of rationalizations to hide behind.

I hate to burst your bubble, but I don't think there are many non-Muslims who need confirmation from Muslims that their beliefs are acceptable. It's not their religion, after all, that calls for the execustion of those who leave the fold or commit blasphemy.

Peace Seminole

You know picoico is right. You have to be exclusive to say someone is wrong.

Look Baghwad Gita Chapter 9 Verses 22-25 have to say:

But those who worship Me with exclusive devotion, meditating on My transcendental form - to them I carry what they lack, and I preserve what they have.

Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only Me, O son of Kunti, but they do so in a wrong way.

I am the only enjoyer and master of all sacrifices. Therefore, those who do not recognize My true transcendental nature fall down.

Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship the ancestors go to the ancestors; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; and those who worship Me will live with Me.

Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, Bhagvad-Gita As It Is, paperback, pages 482-86 emphasis added

P.S. I understand that Krsn is the one who is speaking, but it is not clear whether he is speaking of himself or simply quoting God. If he was a prophet of God then it makes sense he would say "Me" because he is relating the words of God, because prophets do not say from themselves.