There Is No Difference Then!

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Last night I was at a friends home. He is a sunni muslim and an active meber of Idara e Minhaj-ul-Quran. He showed me a video of Dr. Tahir Qadri. It was his speech on Zikr e Hussain aur Azmat wa hub e ahal e bait which he gave in March 2004 at jhang.

After listening to that speach, I beleive that if it is really what sunni think about Imam Husain (as) and Ahle Bait -e- Rasul (saww) then there is no difference between sunnis and shia.

May Allah bless him (Dr Tahir Qadri) fro the work he is doing.

oh, the speech is also available online at www.minhaj.tv Search there for “Zikr e Hussain aur Azmat wa hub e ahal e bait” A must see for every sunni and shia.

wasalam

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I once read that a branch of Shia ( I think the Jafariya branch) is considered to be a different mazahib by Al Azhar in Egypt.
That said considering our current state in the world, I think such discussions are completely frivolous. There are enough people in the world to hate Muslims rather that us dividing ourselves.

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Re: There Is No Difference Then!

All muslims hold deepest respect and love for Ahle bait. Its just shias who think that they have the monopoly. Every muslim says darood on Prophet :saw: and his “Aaal” in every single prayer.

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i too have never understood why shiaas think that sunnis do not love and respect the noble members of the Prophet(saw)'s family....

what i cud conclude was that it wud be a similar reason as why a christian wud think we r enemies of Isa (as) if we told them that he was not a son of God but a human....

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[QUOTE]
I once read that a branch of Shia ( I think the Jafariya branch) is considered to be a different mazahib by Al Azhar in Egypt.
That said considering our current state in the world, I think such discussions are completely frivolous. There are enough people in the world to hate Muslims rather that us dividing ourselves.
[/QUOTE]

Actually Al Azhar said the Jaffari Fiqh is a valid mazhab just like the four Fiqhs of the four sunni Imams. Not what u said.

[QUOTE]
i too have never understood why shiaas think that sunnis do not love and respect the noble members of the Prophet(saw)'s family....

what i cud conclude was that it wud be a similar reason as why a christian wud think we r enemies of Isa (as) if we told them that he was not a son of God but a human....
[/QUOTE]

A very unwarranted statement from u, especially considering the now very redundant 'moratorium'. Ur so called conclusion only highlights the lack of any brain activity what so ever. U have compared shias beliefs on the ahlebait(as) with the christians shirk regarding hadhrat Isa (as). As answering this would violate the oh so holy 'moratorium' I would for the moment prefer to stay quiet and pity u for having to live with urself.

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^
may Allah increase my brain activity but if brain activity means associating partners to Allah in whatsoever form it maybe then i seek refuge of Allah from such brain activity and rather be happy with my state of a dead brain....

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by picard: *
A very unwarranted statement from u, especially considering the now very redundant 'moratorium'. Ur so called conclusion only highlights the lack of any brain activity what so ever. U have compared shias beliefs on the ahlebait(as) with the christians shirk regarding hadhrat Isa (as). As answering this would violate the oh so holy 'moratorium' I would for the moment prefer to stay quiet and pity u for having to live with urself.
[/QUOTE]

there was no attack on christianity/shias on armughal's part , i believe. i think it was just an analogy to gain deeper understanding on that subject

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^^ So how many of you have clicked on the link above and watched that speech?? I am sure If you all have watched that speech you all have posted some thing different.

armughal,

as for associating partners to Allah, let me post an ayah for you to ponder and increase your little brain activity a bit more from a sunni site:

“Now if both of you turn to Allah repentant, it will be better for you as your hearts are already so inclined. But if you backup each other against him, surely Allah is his helper, and Gabriel and the righteous among the believers, and furthermore, all other angels too are his helpers.”

According to Ibn Abbas, the holy Prophet said that the “righteous men” alluded to as “helper” in this verse, refers to Hadrat Ali.

SOURCE

need more?? threre are lot more, just ask :stuck_out_tongue:

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by picard: *

Actually Al Azhar said the Jaffari Fiqh is a valid mazhab just like the four Fiqhs of the four sunni Imams. Not what u said.

A very unwarranted statement from u, especially considering the now very redundant 'moratorium'. Ur so called conclusion only highlights the lack of any brain activity what so ever. U have compared shias beliefs on the ahlebait(as) with the christians shirk regarding hadhrat Isa (as). As answering this would violate the oh so holy 'moratorium' I would for the moment prefer to stay quiet and pity u for having to live with urself.
[/QUOTE]

sorry ,, thats whay i meant

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[QUOTE]
there was no attack on christianity/shias on armughal's part , i believe. i think it was just an analogy to gain deeper understanding on that subject
[/QUOTE]

lol.....are u serious? There was definitly an attack on christians but a justified one. He said they do shirk whch they do. Then he compared shia beliefs regarding the HAlebait(as) with their beliefs regarding Issa(as) I dont think I can explain it in a more easier way to u then this.

[QUOTE]
may Allah increase my brain activity but if brain activity means associating partners to Allah in whatsoever form it maybe then i seek refuge of Allah from such brain activity and rather be happy with my state of a dead brain....
[/QUOTE]

'rather than be happy with my state of a dead brain'???? what the? ANYYYYYWAYYYY......I said u lack brain activity not because of ur saintly stance of not associating partners with Allah but becasue of seeing shirk where there is none, imposing shirk on people who deny it, and after all the discussion on this forum still propogating false beliefs, and attributing fasle attributes to shias. I cant believe I had to explain that to u!

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by picard: *

lol.....are u serious? There was definitly an attack on christians but a justified one. He said they do shirk whch they do. Then he compared shia beliefs regarding the HAlebait(as) with their beliefs regarding Issa(as) I dont think I can explain it in a more easier way to u then this.

well, Islamically believing that Allah has partners is shirk. however, if it's a part of someone else's belief, who are we to say that they are committing shirk? christians can be saying that we're committing shirk by not believing Jesus is the son of God.

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[QUOTE]
well, Islamically believing that Allah has partners is shirk. however, if it's a part of someone else's belief, who are we to say that they are committing shirk? christians can be saying that we're committing shirk by not believing Jesus is the son of God.
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I will not get into what u have in ur mind when u say shias commit shirk. But our discussion is whether it is insulting to shias or not. I said it is and u for some warped reason said it is not an insult.

According to ur explanation, shias might think that sunnis are commiting shirk. But would the sunnis still not find it offensive if a shia tells them they are associating partners with Allah?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by picard: *

I will not get into what u have in ur mind when u say shias commit shirk. But our discussion is whether it is insulting to shias or not. I said it is and u for some warped reason said it is not an insult.

According to ur explanation, shias might think that sunnis are commiting shirk. But would the sunnis still not find it offensive if a shia tells them they are associating partners with Allah?
[/QUOTE]

i never said shia's commit shirk. frankly i don't know too much about shiaism to form a valid opinion. all i said was that we, as Muslims believe Christians commit shirk. whereas, those who follow christianity dno't see it as shirk at all

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[QUOTE]
i never said shia's commit shirk. frankly i don't know too much about shiaism to form a valid opinion. all i said was that we, as Muslims believe Christians commit shirk. whereas, those who follow christianity dno't see it as shirk at all
[/QUOTE]

with apologies to everyone else who has to endure this.

you said:

[QUOTE]
there was no attack on christianity/shias on armughal's part , i believe. i think it was just an analogy to gain deeper understanding on that subject
[/QUOTE]

when armughal clearly compared chistian beliefs ragrading Isa (as) with Shia beliefs regarding the ahle bait (as). No one here is arguing about christians belief. It was the camparison of christian beliefs with shia beliefs that has propmted this argument, one which u have been participating in. I do believe u have no idea what u urself have written. Go and read this thread and u might understand whats under discussion. I do hope ur very young as that would explain your confused state.

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^
well it does not matter what excuse u come up with for shirk, as long as u commit it, its u wh owill have to be answerable for it....
atleast i am content that i wont be held answerable for a sin as hideuos as shirk which Allah says He will never forgive....

may Allah open up ur hearts....

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miyan armughal, you obviously place a great deal of importance on you being satisfied in your heart that you do not commit shirk. combine that with you labelling every javed aslam and imran's heart a mushrik and you have one big monstrousity of hypocricy no good Muslim would like to have in his backyard.

i cant believe Im saying this, but why cant you be more like ThandyMazaq?

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[QUOTE]
^
well it does not matter what excuse u come up with for shirk, as long as u commit it, its u wh owill have to be answerable for it....
atleast i am content that i wont be held answerable for a sin as hideuos as shirk which Allah says He will never forgive....

may Allah open up ur hearts....
[/QUOTE]

as usual ur post is high on rhetoric and low on substance. Your english seems to be as bad as ur reasoning. Where did I offer an 'excuse' for shirk? I stated categorically that shias do not commit shirk. Since u didnt point to any action of the shias that constitutes shirk, how can I provide an 'excuse' for an action u havent even mentioned.

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I was going to leave this till after Ramzan but it seems the thread is going in a totally different direction. i'll take the bait and answer armughal and Code_Red's original questions;

[QUOTE]
i too have never understood why shiaas think that sunnis do not love and respect the noble members of the Prophet(saw)'s family....
[/QUOTE]

There are 3 main reasons why shias believe most sunnis dont hold the Ahl ul Bayt in much significance (the Imams);

1) Most followers of Ahl sunnah indeed dont know even the names of Imams let alone state what order they ruled in. Even now, the names would sound foriegn to most sunnis. I dont think you can hold anyone in much regard if you dont know who they were and if they even existed.

2) Secondly; From the 9 volumes of Sahih Bukhari, the total number of traditions are: 7068

The number of traditions related from the following personalities are:

Aisha the mother of faithful: 1250

Abu Hurairah: 1100

Ibn-Umar: 1100

Anas-Ibn-Malik: 900

Abdullah-Ibn-Abbas: 700

**Ali-Ibn-Abitaleeb: 79

Hasan-Ibn-Ali: 8

Ali-Ibn-Husain (Zainul Abideen): 6

Husain-Ibn-Ali: 2**

From the Imam that spent three years with the Prophet we have well over a thousand traditions, and from the Imam that spent his whole life with the Prophet: 79 hadith. Come to think of it, Imam Anas Ibn Malik came 80 years after the Prophet (saw) and on the scene, probably 20 years after that. Does anyone see the huge contrast and disproportion in the number of ahadith here?

3) Thirdly; Bukhari lived and collected hadith during the lifetime of Imam Muhammed Baqir and Imam Jaffer Sadiq. Key point to note here is that the Imams only ever related traditions from thier forefathers, i.e. the 4 Imams and the prophet (saw). Yet it is surprising not once do we see a tradition related from the 2 Imams.

Yes, the Imams did narrate plenty of ahadith, as we have numerous collections from them and yes other sunni scholars have also recorded these ahadith, but it is interesting to note, the most famous and reliable book after the Quran for sunnis, holds very little significance for the Ahl ul Bayt itself, which ineffect maybe the key as to why not many sunnis know much about the them and also why shias hold Sahih Bukhari in the same light as Bukhari held the Ahlul bayt(as).

Hope that answers your question.

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^
what is the number of ahadith narrated by syedna abu bakr (ra), who was the closest companion of the holy prophet (saw)????

being so close, he shud have narrated the most number of ahadith, but thats not the case u see....

some ppl forwarded what they heard, others did not....
and Ali (ra) and his children had left mecca and madina, therefore perhaps they were in less contact with the collectors....
there cud be a million of reasons why narrations r not heard from them....

what point can u prove by number of narrations????

its ramadan and i dont want to waste time trying to prove why saying Ya Ali (or Ya Hussain) instead of Ya Allah amounts to shirk....

be happy with what u do....
as i said earlier, call it what u wish, u will be answerable for it....

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[QUOTE]
some ppl forwarded what they heard, others did not....
[/QUOTE]

People didnt 'come forward' and present Bukhari with their hadith. Acording sunnis Bukhari went to every which p,ace he thought he could find a hadith. Apparently the Imams of Ahe-bait didnt figure in those calculations.

[QUOTE]
its ramadan and i dont want to waste time trying to prove why saying Ya Ali (or Ya Hussain) instead of Ya Allah amounts to shirk....
[/QUOTE]

So is that what brought on this latest fit of 'thou is kafir'. Well, without going into the details of what Ya Ali means for the umpteenth time, the videa in the first post, which started this thread, shows sunnis saying Ya Ali. Will you then come on record as saying that sunnis also commit shirk in that video?