There Is No Difference Then!

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21

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ma Mooli: *
I was going to leave this till after Ramzan but it seems the thread is going in a totally different direction. i'll take the bait and answer armughal and Code_Red's original questions;

There are 3 main reasons why shias believe most sunnis dont hold the Ahl ul Bayt in much significance (the Imams);

1) Most followers of Ahl sunnah indeed dont know even the names of Imams let alone state what order they ruled in. Even now, the names would sound foriegn to most sunnis. I dont think you can hold anyone in much regard if you dont know who they were and if they even existed.

2) Secondly; From the 9 volumes of Sahih Bukhari, the total number of traditions are: 7068

The number of traditions related from the following personalities are:

Aisha the mother of faithful: 1250

Abu Hurairah: 1100

Ibn-Umar: 1100

Anas-Ibn-Malik: 900

Abdullah-Ibn-Abbas: 700

**Ali-Ibn-Abitaleeb: 79

Hasan-Ibn-Ali: 8

Ali-Ibn-Husain (Zainul Abideen): 6

Husain-Ibn-Ali: 2**

From the Imam that spent three years with the Prophet we have well over a thousand traditions, and from the Imam that spent his whole life with the Prophet: 79 hadith. Come to think of it, Imam Anas Ibn Malik came 80 years after the Prophet (saw) and on the scene, probably 20 years after that. Does anyone see the huge contrast and disproportion in the number of ahadith here?

3) Thirdly; Bukhari lived and collected hadith during the lifetime of Imam Muhammed Baqir and Imam Jaffer Sadiq. Key point to note here is that the Imams only ever related traditions from thier forefathers, i.e. the 4 Imams and the prophet (saw). Yet it is surprising not once do we see a tradition related from the 2 Imams.

Yes, the Imams did narrate plenty of ahadith, as we have numerous collections from them and yes other sunni scholars have also recorded these ahadith, but it is interesting to note, the most famous and reliable book after the Quran for sunnis, holds very little significance for the Ahl ul Bayt itself, which ineffect maybe the key as to why not many sunnis know much about the them and also why shias hold Sahih Bukhari in the same light as Bukhari held the Ahlul bayt(as).

Hope that answers your question.
[/QUOTE]

Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 31, Number 127:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Whoever does not give up forged speech and evil actions, Allah is not in need of his leaving his food and drink (i.e. Allah will not accept his fasting.)"

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ma Mooli: *

2) Secondly; From the 9 volumes of Sahih Bukhari, the total number of traditions are: 7068
[/quote]

That's if you include all the repetitions. Without the repetitions there's probably not more than 3000.

[quote]
The number of traditions related from the following personalities are:

Aisha the mother of faithful: 1250

Abu Hurairah: 1100

Ibn-Umar: 1100

Anas-Ibn-Malik: 900

Abdullah-Ibn-Abbas: 700
[/quote]

Again, these numbers are inflated given that the first figure - 7068 - is inflated. Notice that Abdullah Ibn Abbas is pretty high up the overall list. And why should it be so surprising that a wife of the Prophet (saw) has reported so much from her husband?

[quote]
Ali-Ibn-Abitaleeb: 79
[/quote]

It is worth noting that the number of reports in al Bukhari from Ali are greater than those of 'Umar ibn al Khattab and Mu'awiya put together! So was Bukhari prejudiced against 'Umar and Mu'awiya?

[quote]
From the Imam that spent three years with the Prophet we have well over a thousand traditions, and from the Imam that spent his whole life with the Prophet: 79 hadith
[/quote]

Probably because both Abu Hurairah and Aisha lived considerably longer than Ali and naturally therefore had more time in which to disseminate their hadith and those who heard from them lived longer into the next generation and more people would have heard from them etc. etc.

[quote]
Come to think of it, Imam Anas Ibn Malik came 80 years after the Prophet (saw) and on the scene
[/quote]

You are confused here between Anas ibn Malik and Malik ibn Anas. The former was a companion; the latter was born 93AH.

[quote]
3) Thirdly; Bukhari lived and collected hadith during the lifetime of Imam Muhammed Baqir and Imam Jaffer Sadiq
[/quote]

Both Muhammed Baqir and Jaffer Sadiq died before Bukhari was born. For your information, Bukhari was born 194AH.

[quote]
the most famous and reliable book after the Quran for sunnis, holds very little significance for the Ahl ul Bayt itself, which ineffect maybe the key as to why not many sunnis know much about the them and also why shias hold Sahih Bukhari in the same light as Bukhari held the Ahlul bayt(as).
[/QUOTE]

Is that why Sahih al Bukhari contains chapters on...

The Merits of Ali ibn Abi Talib
The Merits of al Hasan and al Hussain

... including the report from Anas that none resembled the Prophet (saw) more than al Hasan (5:95) and the hadith, "Please Muhammad by doing good to his family." (5:94)

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[QUOTE]
being so close, he shud have narrated the most number of ahadith, but thats not the case u see....
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps that was because seydna Abu Bakr and Umar banned the writing and collecting of any tradition during their rule and removed any existing ones. This continued until Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz's period.

Imam Hasan went back to Madina after the peace treaty and spent the rest of his life teaching ahadith, Imams Zain ul abideen, Muhammed Baqir and Jaffer Sadiq (as) spent their whole lives in Madina. Even Imam Hussain until the last days of his life lived in Madina.

Imam Muhammed baqir and Jaffer sadiq opened up a famous religous institution where they had hundreds of students like Imam Abu Hanifa and Jaber Ibn Hayan learning jurisprudence and ahadith. This was around the same time Bukhari was collecting his ahadith.

Anyway, i made my point in my previous post. Here are some ahadith by the Imams;

A common tradition from Imam Jaffar Sadiq, Imam Ali Rida and other Imams:* "We do not give people verdicts according to our opinions, since had we practised this we would have perished, but they (verdicts) are quotations from the Messenger of Allah (swt), being inherited by us, one from the other, hoarding and keeping it as people hoard gold and silver". *

Imam Jaffar Sadiq (As): * My hadith is my father's hadith, and his is my grandfather's, his being al-Husayn's hadith, and his al-Hasan's, and al-Hasan's hadith is Amir al-Muminin's, his is the Prophet's hadith, and his hadith is the saying of Allah, (the Glorified and Sublime).*

Interesting that not one of His hadith was related by Bukhari.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ma Mooli: *

Imam Muhammed baqir and Jaffer sadiq opened up a famous religous institution where they had hundreds of students like Imam Abu Hanifa and Jaber Ibn Hayan learning jurisprudence and ahadith. This was around the same time Bukhari was collecting his ahadith.
[/quote]

At least three of the people you mention here died before Bukhari was even born! So it puts your, "This was around the same time Bukhari was collecting his ahadith" into context.

[quote]
Interesting that not one of His hadith was related by Bukhari.
[/QUOTE]

One of Bukhari's most famous and respected teachers was Imam Ahmed ibn Hanbal - one of the greatest hadith scholars - yet he relates only about two hadith (if memory serves me right) through him in Sahih al Bukhari. So what's the big deal?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ma Mooli: *Perhaps that was because seydna Abu Bakr and Umar banned the writing and collecting of any tradition during their rule and removed any existing ones. This continued until Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz's period.
[/quote]

gee i wonder why! wish the ban had continued and we wouldn't even have such threads..

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ma Mooli: *

Perhaps that was because seydna Abu Bakr and Umar banned the writing and collecting of any tradition during their rule and removed any existing ones. This continued until Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz's period.
[/QUOTE]

Not that i agree that Abu Bakr and Umar forbade the collection of hadith... but leaving that aside, even according to your words above, this "ban" must have been upheld by Ali also given that you state it "continued until Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz's period".

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by gupguppy: *
Not that i agree that Abu Bakr and Umar forbade the collection of hadith... but leaving that aside, even according to your words above, this "ban" must have been upheld by Ali also given that you state it *"continued until Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz's period".
[/QUOTE]

excellent.. so we all agree it was a bidah started much later and in hindsight was a huge mistake.. afterall who better to assess what's best for Muslims than the Khulafa-e-Rashideen

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There is a reason why we have a Moratorium in this forum. And you guys just proved it again. Its unfortunate, though, that a thread started in a positive manner, was again filled with the same rhetoric against each other's "sects". But then again, this is typical GS crowd, we are talking about.