Both Qur'an and Arabic are so rich that it is not easy for a layperson to really understand the text. It requires very deep knowledge of both to comprehend. A person may read the Qur'an ten times, but on the eleventh time also he will find new things.
Usually, translations do not do full justice to any text. For example, if someone were to translate Shakespeare into French, would the result have the same effect. Cultural and language differences would be a hindrance in coming up with an exact impression.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[This message has been edited by FactFinder (edited December 27, 2001).]
Both Qur'an and Arabic are so rich that it is not easy for a layperson to really understand the text. It requires very deep knowledge of both to comprehend. A person may read the Qur'an ten times, but on the eleventh time also he will find new things.
Usually, translations do not do full justice to any text. For example, if someone were to translate Shakespeare into French, would the result have the same effect. Cultural and language differences would be a hindrance in coming up with an exact impression.
**
[/quote]
I'm sorry, but I've read this one verse more than 10 times and can't come up with anything different.
[al-Ma'idah 5:51] O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
Basically says not to be friends with Jews or Christians and he who taketh them for friends is (one) of them.
Do you have a translated version of this verse [al-Ma'idah 5:51]or is it correct as above?
[This message has been edited by GoodHeartedChic (edited December 27, 2001).]
I have been away for quite some time now, but have returned to see that some things have still have not changed.
I see that Anand is still 'barking at the tree hoping for the apple to drop, rather than going to the shop and simply buying one '.
His anti islamic propoganda and venom is still rife within his blood. Keep it up. The last laugh is always on him!
I also see that we have new members, which is good for the site and hopefully will increase it's profile.
As far as the topic is concerned. The site in question is just another anti-islamic site and is fighting it's corner trying to convince anyone and everyone that we are wrong and they are right.
I'm sure we've seen this type of scenario time and time again. So another one adding to the list won't change the pre-destined course of Islam in the slightest!
It seems that Muslims want to tell us that there are two Islamas. One is just Islam and the second is Islamic extremism. We have seen thousands of innocents killings, still we have patience to accept that Islam is a peaceful religion.
Jazak Allah, brother. I hope GHC has been to the link and read the response. It says precisely what I had written that Arabic is a very rich language and translation can be very difficult. The word wali is certainly much more than ‘friend’, as translated. The word ‘ally’ may be closer, but I would venture to say that even that is not sufficient. For example, a woman has to be handed over in marriage by a wali, and in that context it is a guardian.
It is unfortunate that non-Muslims and people with limited knowledge jump to conclusions after reading an ayat thinking they can score browny points. Whereas, in actual fact they are mistaken.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[quote]
Originally posted by anand:
**It seems that Muslims want to tell us that there are two Islamas. One is just Islam and the second is Islamic extremism. We have seen thousands of innocents killings, still we have patience to accept that Islam is a peaceful religion.
**
[/quote]
There is only one Islam. The difference, if you find any, is either in your conception or in the failure by Muslims to practice.
The classification into extremists is stereotyped. Aren't there 'extremist' Hindus and Jews and Christians?
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[This message has been edited by FactFinder (edited December 30, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by anand:
**We cannot argue a mind shaped in Madrisa.
**
[/quote]
I thought you were in a discussion forum. Why do you wish to get uncivil and argue?
As for the madrassah bit, please stop the stereotyping and come up with some points and let us discuss with an open mind. According to the gentleman who has come back after some time, you have been on this forum for a long time. Sit back and think what have you gained.
This may be an excelent opportunity for you to learn. Why don't you try? This may be the only chance for you to change your life and have a better Hereafter.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
I’m not trying to visit or learn Anti-Islam, I happen to come across the verse of friends (Jews and Christians) and was disturbed about it and I’m trying to see what exactly it means.
I’ve looked in the Holy Quran Dictionary and the search results for wali is not mentioned.
The Holy Qurán: Search Results
Searching for the word “wali”. The word “wali” was not found.
New Search.
Home Page of the Muslim Students Association of Oregon State University.
Friends on the other hand has a lot of results along with friendship, etc.
The Holy Qurán: Search Results
Searching for the word “friends”. The word appears in 23 verses.
3.28 Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah. except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (to fear) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.
4.76 Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of Tagut (Evil): So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.
4.89 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): So take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
4.139 Those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honor they seek among them? Nay,- All honor is with Allah.
4.144 O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?
5.51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
5.55 Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).
5.57 O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed).
5.81 If only they had believed in Allah, in the Prophet, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers.
6.71 Say: “Shall we call on others besides Allah,- things that can do us neither good nor harm,- and turn on our heels after receiving guidance from Allah? - like one whom the Satans have made into a fool, wandering bewildered through the earth, his friends calling: ‘come to us’, (vainly) guiding him to the path.” Say: "Allah’s guidance is the (only) guidance, and we have been directed to submit ourselves to the Lord of the worlds;-
6.121 Eat not of (meats) on which Allah’s name hath not been pronounced: That would be impiety. But the evil ones ever inspire their friends to contend with you if ye were to obey them, ye would indeed be Pagans.
6.128 One day will He gather them all together, (and say): “O ye assembly of Jinns! Much (toll) did ye take of men.” Their friends amongst men will say: “Our Lord! we made profit from each other: but (alas!) we reached our term - which thou didst appoint for us.” He will say: “The Fire be your dwelling-place: you will dwell therein for ever, except as Allah willeth.” for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge.
7.3 Follow (O men!) the revelation given unto you from your Lord, and follow not, as friends or protectors, other than Him. Little it is ye remember of admonition.
7.27 O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as he got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the Satans friends (only) to those without faith.
7.30 Some He hath guided: Others have deserved the loss of their way; in that they took the Satans ones, in preference to Allah, for their friends and protectors, and think that they receive guidance.
8.72 Those who believed, and emigrated, and fought for the Faith, with their property and their persons, in the Cause of Allah, as well as those who gave (them) asylum and aid,- these are (all) friends and protectors, one of another. As to those who believed but did not emigrate, ye owe no duty of protection to them until they emigrate; but if they seek your aid in religion, it is your duty to help them, except against a people with whom ye have a treaty of mutual alliance. And (remember) Allah seeth all that ye do.
9.16 Do you think that you would be left alone while Allah has not yet known those among you who strive with might and main, and take none for friends and protectors except Allah, His Messenger, and the (community of) Believers? And Allah is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.
10.62 Behold! verily on the friends of Allah there is no fear, nor shall they grieve;
33.5 Call them by their fathers: that is juster in the sight of Allah. But if ye know not their father’s names, (then they are) your brothers in faith, or your friends. But there is no blame on you if ye make a mistake therein: (what counts is) the intention of your hearts: and Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
33.6 The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers. Blood-relations among each other have closer personal ties, in the Book of Allah. Than (the Brotherhood of) Believers and Muhájirs: nevertheless do ye what is just to your closest friends: such is the writing in the Book (of Allah).
43.67 Friends on that day will be foes, one to another,- except the Righteous.
60.1 O ye who believe! Take not my enemies and yours as friends (or protectors),- offering them (your) love, even though they have rejected the Truth that has come to you, and have (on the contrary) driven out the Messenger and yourselves (from your homes), (simply) because ye believe in Allah your Lord! If ye have come out to strive in My Way and to seek My Good Pleasure, friendship unto them: for I know full well all that ye conceal and all that ye reveal. And any of you that does this has strayed from the Straight Path.
62.6 Say: “O ye of Jewry! If ye think that ye are friends to Allah, to the exclusion of (other) men, then express your desire for Death, if ye are truthful!”
New Search.
Home Page of the Muslim Students Association of Oregon State University.
[quote]
Originally posted by GoodHeartedChic:
** I'm not trying to visit or learn Anti-Islam, I happen to come across the verse of friends (Jews and Christians) and was disturbed about it and I'm trying to see what exactly it means.
I've looked in the Holy Quran Dictionary and the search results for wali is not mentioned.
The Holy Qurán: Search Results **
[/quote]
No, I did not assume that you were doing anything anti-Islam. My intention was to clear the misunderstanding.
The word wali is Arabic. I do not know where to guide you to get the exact meaning of the word. I have a printout of the Arabic glossary from a course I did in Islamic Jurisprudence. The word is defined as: legal guardian, friend or protector, somebody who is supposed to look out for your interest.
If you know anybody who understands or reads Arabic, I suggest you ask him/her. Or, go to any forum and ask what the word 'wali' means.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
GHC, expanding on what FactFinder said, the word "wali" only appears in the original arabic, and not in the english.
As you mentioned, the word "friend" appears 23 times. If you look at the original arabic, you will find that some of those 23 originally in arabic said "wali", meaning friend as an ally/protector/guardian, and some "sadeeq", as in personal friends.
God bans muslims from taking those of the non-muslims who oppose us as intimate friends, and distinguishing them by bestowing love upon them, supporting them against Muslims, approving of their beliefs and compromising a part of Islam for them.
However in verses 8 and 9 of the 60th chapter of the Quran,
As for such (of the unbelievers) as do not fight against you on account of your faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, Allah does not forbid you to show them kindness and to behave towards them with full equity. Indeed, Allah loves those who act equitably. Allah only forbids you to choose for your allies those that fight against you because of your faith, and drive you forth from your homelands, or aid others in driving you forth. Those of you who choose such people for their allies are truly wrongdoers."
God makes it clear that when dealing with non-muslims who bear no hostility to Muslims, that we should treat them with kindness and equity. There is no discouragement in Islam against taking non-muslims as personal friends ("sadeeq" in arabic), so long as they do not act with the intention of attacking Islam.
[This message has been edited by mAd_ScIeNtIsT (edited December 30, 2001).]
Thanks for your comments. My words are very mild in comparison.
Why you people get irritated when Islam is questioned? This is not the same with the followers of other religions. Their activities more or less do not attract the world community or disturb peace.
Today Islam is the only active religion. I find the reason behind the walls of Madrisa. There are religions responsible for producing fanatics perfect in suicide killings, but that is just five or six in a century.
In comparison Islam produces five to six fanatics every day. Why?
In fact you people are ignorant or just shaped in Madrisa, hence cannot understand the violent nature of Islam.
Thanks for your help on the “wali” thing. I wish they would’ve used the actual word they are referring to instead of just friends in general, really gives it a bad misunderstanding.
I went to the site of the school from where I did my Usul al-Fiqh course to check if non-students could access the glossary of Arabic terms. You are in luck. Please go to http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Default.htm and check in their Arabic Terms. Unfortunately, there is no search function so you will have to go through q few pages to get to the last page which has the ‘w’. I have printed the list as it is very useful.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[quote]
Originally posted by anand: Why you people get irritated when Islam is questioned? This is not the same with the followers of other religions. Their activities more or less do not attract the world community or disturb peace.
[/quote]
I do not get irritated with anybody until that person shows clearly that he/she is only being a nuisance.
Regarding your comparison with other religions is something that I look at from a positive angle. It is the fastest growing religion and people are reverting to it every day. People who are attacking it are afraid of it. They are not afraid of any other religion. The result is very encouraging.
**
[quote]
Today Islam is the only active religion. I find the reason behind the walls of Madrisa. There are religions responsible for producing fanatics perfect in suicide killings, but that is just five or six in a century. In comparison Islam produces five to six fanatics every day. Why?
In fact you people are ignorant or just shaped in Madrisa, hence cannot understand the violent nature of Islam.**
[/quote]
Look at your statements again.
How do you know that the madarsahs are producing fanatics?
How do you know that the people educated in madrassahs are "perfect in suicide killings"? Do you know who blew up the army stronghold in Kashmir couple of years back? It was a British born and educated young man who left the UK and came to Kashmir to take part in jihad against the atrocities committed by the Indian armed forces against civilians.
How do you know that 5 to 6 are being produced every day. Islam is a religion that is more than a religion. It is a way of life. So, to be a Muslim, we have to abide by all rules given to us by the Creator. Does that classify me as a fanatic? If yes, you number is grossly understated. Every one of us who follows the rules is a fanatic and is willing to take part in jihad and, if destined, become a shaheed.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
Still media and world leaders are not talking openly about the violent nature of Islam, they have to be within the limits of diplomacy. But people at large in different countries now doubt the peace claims of Islam.
You may counter all arguments with different examples. But pls come out of false propaganda of Islamic fast growing religion.
Since beginning Islam could get expansion only in societies opposed to culture and civilizations. In India it could attract a little percentage, in Spain it got no roots. In States and West it is totally dependent on emigration.
Mass conversions that came to an end by the second half of 20th century were never voluntary.
Today Islam is totally dependent on birth rate.
It is your Madrisa rating that never let you accept the reality.
Only if you understand the psycho effects of verses of quran on mind, the meanings of fanaticism will be clear to you.
I hereby notice that you have also grown mature in your stupidity and fictitional research, whilst I have been away.
Instead of blindly bumping into walls of a room with full view, just take time out and ponder over your ludicrous but refreshingly ignorant and illiterate statements.
Regardless of what you say, the Truth will always be the Truth.
As far as your research is concerned, can you please answer the following questions!
How many countries has the USA, which is predominantly Christian and Jewish, attacked over the last century alone? Killing more than any suicide bomber will ever dream of doing?
What cause are the Tamil Tigers fighting for and what tactics do they use?
How many innocent deaths are committed by the practice of Sati?
Which Madrasah have you monitored and over what period in order to determine your stereotypical and prejudiced views? And I'm not talking about the one in 'Alice in Wonderland'.
Finally, can you please confirm for all us Guppies, what Hinduism stands for, giving examples from your texts of the Vedas!
Is the assertion based on some evidence or your twisted Hindu/Indian logic?
**
Come up with some valid points to counter my assertions. This is basic rule for a discussion. If you have no countering points to make then you have to agree or shut up.
**
Get your facts right, and we are not discussing expansion. Islam is not expansionist. It was spread from Spain to Philipines, with its good qualities. Its increase across those boundaries was curtailed by covert measures and ethnic cleansing. It had its roots but the forces against it used means that were negative.
**
Go and read the American press and come out of your hole.