Amal: I can’t remember PyariCgudia or myself saying anything anti Pakistani or point scoring anywhere (nor for that matter Rajput fury). I believe RF might have misunderstood what PC said, but she never said anything racist (check her posts if you don’t believe me).
We were both quoting legitimate grievances, issues of poverty and rights, and we were attacked quite harshly by Adnan for that. If you check his posts he has used words like “you pathans, Sindhis Baluchis” , “not as patriotic”, “Punjabis are the only true Pakistanis”
I find those comments hurtful and wrong. I am a God fearing person I don’t believe in compromising or apologising for something I haven’t said. I also have not seen anyone else condemn those remarks against Pashtuns, Sindhis, Mohajirs and Baluchis. Justice(Insaf) says when a zulm is being committed we should highlight and condemn it. If our perception is wrong we should be corrected, but argue on the basis of facts.
If Pakistan is going to work, it must be a multi cultural country recruitment should be fair, the truth should be acknowledged and zulm should be condemned. We all must remember unlike Punjab Mohajirs have a stake in India, Pashtuns in afghanistan, Baluchis in Iran and afghanistan. Policies should reflect those feelings.
** Sindh wanted to use total revenue collections and contributions to the national exchequer as the criteria for allocation. Sindh’s claim was that in 1980 its contribution to national exchequer was 80 per cent, in 1990 it came down to 75 per cent and currently it is around 60 per cent. **
http://www.dawn.com/2002/05/06/ebr8.htm
**Consequently, 70 per cent of the country’s poor households are headed by elderly and illiterate male or female. Rural areas are the most affected by the incidence of poverty, particularly in Sindh and Balochistan provinces. According to the ADB report, the ratio of poverty in five districts of Sindh province was 82 per cent, where 60 per cent families in these districts earn less than $1 a day. **
Well 50 years have passed and still our mentality (I am a Punjabi also) hasent changed a bit, that even if some people from the smaller provices talk of their genuine rights they are ignored and those people are labelled as lesser patriots. Its about time this blame game be stopped, the Economic situation in Southern Punjab, Balochistan and Rural Sindh is very bad. Government needs to improve the living conditions of those areas to remove the grieviences of those people. As a starting point the government could start giving the royalty of Sui gas to Balochistan, power to NWFP and Taxes to Sindh. Royalty of wheat and other agricultural products can be given to Punjab. By giving more resources to the provinces, and giving them more powers, so that the excuse that the provinces use at the moment that they are being discriminted against can be removed. Similarly, the guy living in the remotest area of Pakistan should be able to feel the difference Pakistan has made in his life, coz at the moment the people of Balochistan or rural Sindh could care less for Pakistan, because Pakistan ahs given them nothing. These things should be improved, if we have to make Pakistan a strong and prosperous country.
Zakk I understand that no one is making any anti-Pakistani remarks here. But I also feel that the way provincialism is being thrashed out, it will stir just more uneasiness. If we highlight plight of smaller provinces or rural areas, as does Zaavia, the mood of the discussion automatically suggests that this is Punjab which is responsible for everything. Zaavia has made the most fruitful comment so far by not only underlining problems, but also suggesting doable options. And I also do not smell or, his comments do not point to any reservations towards a particular province. If a village in NWFP does not have electricity or an engineer Balochistan is jobless, the logical place to point a finger towards is our capital and not Punjab.
As I mentioned earlier, I am also Punjabi but when i say that I do not consider myself a better or a more patriotic Pakistani comparing to others, I'm not heard. But if i say that being a Punjabi, I'm a more valuable citizen of Pakistan, it will create a drama right away. That's why I say that we are doing here nothing but point-scoring.
I do not want anybody to stop mentioning problems being faced by people back home. I just want everybody not to introduce themselves as advocates of a particular province to find an enemy in others. Who is a poor Sindhi and who is a poor Balochi? I just want you to say two poor Pakistanis.
But I also feel that the way provincialism is being thrashed out, it will stir just more uneasiness. If we highlight plight of smaller provinces or rural areas, as does Zaavia, the mood of the discussion automatically suggests that this is Punjab which is responsible for everything. Zaavia has made the most fruitful comment so far by not only underlining problems, but also suggesting doable options.
I agree with you about Zaavia, his/her above comments are superb. However, I dont think addressing provincialism is something we ought to avoid, cuz it is a problem. Of course, we need to start looking for solutions at this point. My issue is, we might come up with great ideas here, but where do we go after that point? I dont know about u guys, but after discussing and debating here, sometimes I feel real empty, cuz I know these voices will never reach the ears of those who can really make a change.
Rajputfury, thanks so much for that response. I'll definitely look into visiting attock. Hopefully, I'll be able to tour all of Pakistan - always wanted to do that.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PyariCgudia: *
**Rajputfury, thanks so much for that response. I'll definitely look into visiting attock. Hopefully, I'll be able to tour all of Pakistan - always wanted to do that.
[/QUOTE]
You havent been to Pakistan?? Well it would be an enjoyable trip than, all the best... And I am sure the hospitality of the Punjabis will alleviate some of the hatred you have for 'em.
If you look at these discussions, they begin with bashing Punjab and end with no results whatsoever. Let me put it bluntly, I think this is always a waste of my time because no matter what brilliant policy directives that may come out of these discussions they will NOT be implemented. The truth is that Pakistan is headed down the drain in economic terms because everyone is so damn politicized. I can tell you all positive things that have occurred in the recent years but they will be overshadowed by greater negative things. Lets switch to the no-spin zone, the problem with Pakistan is not only with the politicians but also with the people. Divided by language, ethnicity, religion, hell even mohalla Pakistani people in general like to sit there and argue.
Taking the anti-Pakistan and anti-Punjab individuals viewpoints into account, they would ideally want to separate from a Punjab dominated Pakistan, and create their version of utopia, I say good luck! God forbid, if Punjab has to go at it alone, then so be it. I'm damn sick of justifying my points of view. Then no more calls for splitting up provinces no more recommendations for autonomy.
I have a lot more respect for Indians in that regard. India is much more complex than Pakistan, however with bumps and skids its economy has been progressing whereas Pakistani economy is in stagnation even with the best intentions in mind. I speak in economic terms rather than political terms (tired of politics).
Pyari: If you ever do visit the Attock area be sure to drop me a PM or something. There are many "off the beaten" path attractions and tourist spots. I think you can really coordinate a trip very well coming to Islamabad then taking Hway to Attock and then crossing over to NWFP. Central location and friendly people--> My Sales pitch for Attock :)
Amal, Zaavia thanks for the kind words and ideas. The two of you helped moved us all past these arguments and to look at practical solutions. Unfortunately even that is not enough, like Pyari said, the sadness is made worse because most of us after so much argument see the way out yet we know our leaders have never listened.
Your comment about poor pakistanis struck me particularly amal, it is very true. I to wish we could say poor Pakistanis, unfortunately it is the way of the world that we look at situations as "us" and "them".
After all many of us would not accept the poverty of certain areas in Pakistan over others. Poverty and injustice makes people bitter, what they need is understanding and more importantly a fair chance.
I also hope next time when I'm in Pakistan I would love to meet guppies from whichever Province or area and I welcome others to visit me in Peshawar in the same way.
To another point lets all hope PC passes her exam after spending so much time arguing!
On that note I consider this thread closed from my side, anyone who wants to continue a general debate and toss some ideas around do PM me...
"To another point lets all hope PC passes her exam after spending so much time arguing!
On that note I consider this thread closed from my side, anyone who wants to continue a general debate and toss some ideas around do PM me..."
Yes! Good Luck with those exams Pyari. I know how we like to disagree about matters but your opinions are yours and I can respect that.
I'm done with this topic also. Zakk, next time we should discuss something more positive like good places to see in Pakistan. I love traveling and especially those places unspoiled by tourists (yes, yes I know the hypocrisy, I'm a tourist myself). Can't wait to go to Pakistan this December! I am absolutely tired of Connecticut winters.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
"To another point lets all hope PC passes her exam after spending so much time arguing!
On that note I consider this thread closed from my side, anyone who wants to continue a general debate and toss some ideas around do PM me..."
Yes! Good Luck with those exams Pyari. I know how we like to disagree about matters but your opinions are yours and I can respect that.
I'm done with this topic also. Zakk, next time we should discuss something more positive like good places to see in Pakistan. I love traveling and especially those places unspoiled by tourists (yes, yes I know the hypocrisy, I'm a tourist myself). Can't wait to go to Pakistan this December! I am absolutely tired of Connecticut winters.
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I hope she passes too, otherwise she would accuse us of launching a punjabi conspiracy to supress the her in her academic aims, which would result in the betterment of her minority ;)
lol, thanks guys for the best wishes on the exams, and of course, if I do bad, then I accept 100 percent responsibility. I have been to Pakistan, but I've only been to Karachi. The closest we came to going out of Karachi, was a tentative plan to visit hyderabad, but that never surfaced. My mother's family has toured all of Pakistan, and they're not interested in doing it again, so its my loss really. But I'm pushing for it nonetheless.
By the way, most of my exams went pretty well considering I studied the night before,and I got a total of oh maybe 12 hours of sleep in one week...I did screw up on my orgo quiz, but heck, it doesn't count for too much anyway, so its okay.
Anyhoo, back to the topic, if you guys wish to keep discussing, then fine. I'm tired of it, and I want sleep. Godspeed.
Bro, Im not attacking you, you dont seem to understand my point.
While most of your grievances are justified, I think the solutions are well within your means. Its the Minorities themselves that deny themselves their own rights.
As for “Punjabis being the only Pakistanis,” I dont think that, and I dont want that, but thats what non Punjabis make me feel.
I dont like seeing other provinces putting their provincial tribal identity before Pakistan. In Punjab, majority of people dont do that>? Is it my fault that is the immpresion I get from you non Punjabis?
As for poverty and backwardness of Sindh, like I said, its not Punjabs fault that your own leaders couldnt do anything for you. I can understand in the case of Balochistan, but Sindh? Didnt you guys have two prime ministers from the province?
And if your going to blame the Army, then why dont you people start trying to increase your numbers in the Army so that you can balance the equation in your favor?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
With all due respect Adnan by saying Punjabis have sacrificed more then any other people is just dead wrong. In effect you are calling the rest of us "traitors" who are you to Judge that?
While people like myself and Pyari are criticising policies which they "perceive" to be discriminatory, they are being called for all intents and purposes "traitors" and not good enough Pakistani's. There is a harsh difference between the two, criticising wrong policies is not a crime, it's called freedom of speech, calling someone anti Pakistani..not patriotic enough..IS a very very serious thing to say!
A criticism of large scale unfairness against people of other provinces is an established fact. Look at the article I posted about poverty which is significantly higher in Central and Southern Pakistan. There is plenty more to prove that the people of smaller provinces , esp Baluchsitan and Sindh are SUFFERING. They feel tehy are being robbed of what should be theirs automatically. You can argue till you are blue in your face, that belief is backed by facts. Now whether they are being robbed by the federal govt and corrupt bureaucrats is not what they see, they see people of Punjabi origin mostly being in charge of that robbery and when the protest they get called traitors and anti Pakistani. Mind you those bureaucrats wont do anything for their own people either, they'll just buy mansions in Isloo and tell everyone how great they are, but that perception needs a lot of hard work to be addressed.
Laslty puleeease don't use Ayub Khan as an example of Pashtuns, he was a Hindko speaker who did very little for anyone across the Indus, and ZA Bhutto..well what happened to him at the end is well known, using that formuka shouldn't Nawaz have been hanged? After all he created the slogan of "jaag Punjabi Jaag" and used to tell people never to vote for a Sindhi...that's what i call being provincial!
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Yaar, Im not calling you people traitors, but rember, who are the majority fighting out for our country in Siachin Who are the majority on the Loc and the border. Who are the Jihadis that run head long into Indian security forces in Kashmir?
Ofcourse im not accusing anyone, but like you, im expressing the same free speech that you do.
The reality is, from what I gather, is that the none of the Provinces turst any of the other provinces. Punjabis being a mojority, which is not our fault, will always get the most blame, regardless of whether or not its justified.
Punjabis on their part will never understand why they are resented.
I just reflect a comman immpresion I think amongst most Punajbis, who feel that none of the other provinces are patriotic. And to be honest, I do get that immpresion myself.
Who fault is this, I dont know, I know it Punjabs fault but not entirely. I think a lot of it is unjustified.
The reason Punjab is so succesful is because the majority of the Army is Punjabi and the Army has ruled Pakistan contiuously. So obviously they would favor their own province. In my village alone, there are Brigadiers and a few generals in every family, the last governor of Punjab was actually from my village.
So the solution for the minorities, is to flood the Army. They should change the balance in their own favor. And it not because they are discriminated against, Ii mean, historically, non Punjabis rarely joind the army, even before the creation of Pakistan. Its about time that changed.
Lastly, I know about discrimination... My family cant join anything since the are Ahmedi, can discrimination get any worse?
I sometimes laugh at the so called discrimination the other provinces complain of, I dont think they know what discrimanation is.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PyariCgudia: *
lol, thanks guys for the best wishes on the exams, and of course, if I do bad, then I accept 100 percent responsibility. I have been to Pakistan, but I've only been to Karachi. The closest we came to going out of Karachi, was a tentative plan to visit hyderabad, but that never surfaced. My mother's family has toured all of Pakistan, and they're not interested in doing it again, so its my loss really. But I'm pushing for it nonetheless.
By the way, most of my exams went pretty well considering I studied the night before,and I got a total of oh maybe 12 hours of sleep in one week...I did screw up on my orgo quiz, but heck, it doesn't count for too much anyway, so its okay.
Anyhoo, back to the topic, if you guys wish to keep discussing, then fine. I'm tired of it, and I want sleep. Godspeed.
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Adnan, dude you think Attock is in Northern Areas?? It’s actually in Northern Punjab and is part of Rawalpindi division. Attock district’s biggest city is also called Attock which is on the Indus (Abasin). It used be part of NWFP, but it was tranferred to Punjab. Attock located right in between Islamabad and Peshawer.
I spent like 6 or 7 summers there. Hassan Abdal, Kamra and other defense institutions are nearby, crossing over to NWFP is easy and you can always check out the infamous Attock fort where (it seems like) every politician’s temporary “rest home.”
Anyway if your ever thinking of visiting do drop me a note, and I can tell you the details about more sites etc.
umm...i'm assuming you mean in Karachi...we live in Clifton.
I see what you're getting at Adnan, but perceptions differ. I get the perception that Punjabis put their provincial identity ahead of their national identity, to the point that they equate their national identity with their provincial identity.
Again, that's my perception. And perceptions differ. I guess the problem lies here.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PyariCgudia: *
umm...i'm assuming you mean in Karachi...we live in Clifton.
I see what you're getting at Adnan, but perceptions differ. I get the perception that Punjabis put their provincial identity ahead of their national identity, to the point that they equate their national identity with their provincial identity.
Again, that's my perception. And perceptions differ. I guess the problem lies here.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, and your perception is wrong, as Punjabis never do that... If you meet a Punjabi, hes never going to be obsessed with the fact that hes a Punjabi... Ppl from the other provinces, especially NWFP tend to do that.
It seems that you missed my previous post… anyways read this …
A.H.AMIN: THE INDO-PAK ARMIES AND THEIR MERCENARY CALLING
As the adage aptly describes, there is nothing worse than to do the right thing for the wrong reason. We may modify it slightly by rephrasing it as doing the right thing, or the supposedly right thing, for the wrong reason!
The pre-1947 Indian Army was a mercenary army composed of villagers from barren, rain-irrigated areas of India! These mercenaries were employed against their own people right from 1757! The Sepoys (as these mercenaries were called) fought for money just like the Senegalese in French occupied Africa fought for money! These mercenaries comprised many nationalities and religions. They killed the Santhals in Bengal and the Martathas in Central India; they destroyed Tipu Sultan in 1799; they fought against the freedom fighters of 1857 when a greater part of the Hindustani mercenaries rebelled against the British masters! They fought against the Punjabi Sikhs, who later on were enlisted as mercenaries! They fought against the Afghans in three wars during 1839-42, 1878-80, and in 1919. In addition, they fought in countless expeditions in the Trans-Indus Frontier from 1843 to 1946, destroying livestocks, razing villages to the ground, and destroying wells.
Internationally, these mercenaries fought against the Muslim Turks in the First Great War, against the Chinese in the Opium Wars and the Boxer Rebellion, and against the Germans and in the First and Second World Wars: all races that had nothing against India! In short, these men fought for a living against anyone, whether they be Muslim Christian, Buddhist, Indian, Turkish, German, or Chinese for a living! Espirit de Corps was a cleverly coined British ploy to galvanize these mercenaries.
There were exceptions to the mercenary rule. In 1857, the Bengal Army, some three-fourths of which was Hindustani Hindu led by one fourth Hindustani and Ranghar Muslims mostly from cavalry that rebelled against the English East India Company! Unfortunately, India was not a country, and the English Company found eager mercenaries in the northwest! They were eager to loot Delhi and panting to get land grants, Jangi Inams, and many more carrots that the cunning English colonials promised! Opportunism became the rule of Indian society, now known as Indo Pak, whether it was poets, educationists, lawyers, civil servants, or soldiers! The Indians were a defeated people and they thought that the White man was invincible! There were some exceptions to apathy when Sher Ali, a tall, muscular Pathan, stabbed the British Viceroy Mayo in the Andaman Islands in 1872! Some motivated Pathans of the tribal area minus the more opportunistic people of Mardan Charsadda Swabi Kohat and D.I Khan carried at the struggle that had its origins in Sayyid Ahmad Brelvis guerrilla war.
Then came the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-05! The myth of European superiority was broken! Some audacious men, mostly Bengali Hindus, decided to strike back! A bold man called Rash Behari Bose actually attacked the British Viceroy Charles Hardinge with a bomb containing gramophone needles and nails while he was entering Delhi in 1813. Unfortunately, Bihari failed to kill the viceroy. However, terror struck at the heart of the British! Their viceroy was attacked not in far flung Andaman Islands but in the newly created imperial capital Delhi and not by a Wahabi but by a highly educated Bengali Hindu. Rash Bihari escaped, but the Indian Army did not wake up from the slumber of their mercenary sleep.
The First World War was yet another testing ground for the mercenary Indian Army. In the words of one British historian, the Punjabi Muslims stood staunch as a rock while there was a question mark over the Pathans. He did not ,however, add that these disloyal Pathans were not from settled districts of Mardan or Charsadda Kohat or Peshawar but from the tribal areas and from D.I Khan. Some Indian military men were ashamed of their degrading mercenary status and did rebel against the British. Notable among these were the Hindustani Muslim Ranghars of the 5th Light Infantry, who for some time captured Singapore; the Afridis of various Frontier Force Units, notably the indomitable Mir Mast Afridi; and some Mahsuds from the Mahsud Companies of the 129 and 130 Baluchis. Lastly, there were the Pathan Squadrons of Curetons 15 Lancers **(the Punjabi Muslim Squadrons remaining pragmatically loyal). **
All these men died, but all men are mortal. Is it death that our rulers are afraid of or is it a billion dollar package that will give them immortality? Is collaboration at the rate of few billion the golden lesson that they are leaving for posterity? A pragmatic lesson one must say.
One important development took place during the First World War. The Sikh Ghadrites, a group of Punjabis, some Hindus, and mostly Sikhs, did manage to subvert the Indian Army from their mercenary calling. They did not succeed, but many soldiers of scribes unit 23 Cavalry were court martialled and executed for conspiracy against British Empire. On the whole, the Indian Army remained staunch even when martial law was imposed in Punjab in 1919, Gujranwala was bombed, many civilians flogged or made to crawl in the public, and many hundreds of civilians were killed by the army. The only inspiring incident of the Indian Army not being a mercenary force occurred in the 1930s, when the Garhwali Hindus soldiers of a unit of the Royal Garhwal Rifles refused to fire on the Pathan Muslim Redshirts demonstrating against the British. The Indian Army remained largely loyal in WW II, minus the Indian National Army in Burma. By and large, **Indian independence had no connection with the Indian Army, who remained loyal mercenaries to the end to their British masters. **
In India Nehru reduced the army to its correct place, i.e. a servile instrument of policy of the civilians. In Pakistan, because the Muslim League the political party that led Pakistan, there was an **a party of soldiers with a mercenary past, and with nothing to do with the political struggle to free India, they were able to usurp power. **Since they were leaders of a mercenary army rather than a national army, they made the USA their godfather, making professions of being the vanguard of the USA, whether it was the protection of Anglo-Iranian Oil Fields or supporting Anglo-French claims over the Suez Canal. **In the process of this abject appeasement, they managed an aid package from the USA. This was sufficient to make the Pakistan Army a sophisticated army but insufficient to win a war against India, not because of material reasons, but because of poor higher leadership and strategic and operational ineptness. **
All throughout this period, the common Pakistani was anti-US anti-West, pro-Arab, and pro-Muslim. However, the common man was only a servile tool , democracy having been destroyed by 1958. **The army remained a mercenary army with little national participation. It fought the 1965 War well, albeit at a battalion level, since beyond the battalion level, the more senior ranks were ones who had been programmed by the pre-1947 British to be company commanders at best. The 1965 War proved to be a watershed in Pakistani history, since it made clear the fact that the army was not a national army , since it was without participation from the country’s east wing! **This fact was realized by General Yahya, the new C in C, but it was too late. The result was a civil war followed by defeat in a conventional war and the break up of Pakistan into two states. Few lessons were learnt, and soon, the country’s first post-1946 democratically elected government was dismissed amidst allegations of superpower involvement. The army came with a 90-day promise to hold elections, which were never held. The gap between the people and the army grew, and the situation was saved only by the fact that the Zia military junta found a new master, more correctly a new paymaster, in the USA once the USSR invaded Afghanistan. For next nine years, Pakistan fought the USA’s war against communism, only to be conveniently discarded like an syringe with a decade long life. A syringe used to inject poison into the Red Army and then thrown into the incinerator of history!
Within three years of the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, the USA was all keen to declare Pakistan a terrorist state; the Americans have short memories. Something like an impromptu encounter with a lass in a bar, followed by an expression of eternal love and everything forgotten the next day after the desired objective is achieved.
A.H.Amin
Major Agha Humayun Amin (Retired) is an ex-tank corps officer and a military writer and correspondent. He is the author of two books on the Pakistan army. He has been the executive editor of Globe Karachi and a military writer.
Good point about the pre partition days, I actually knew that. My relatives mostly served in the Army at that time aswell. Cant say im extradordinarily proud, but thats how i was.
Still doesnt explain why other groups besides the Punjabis dont join the ranks. Is the discrimination so strong the 75% of army has to be Punabi?
:k:
It’s actually in Northern Punjab and is part of Rawalpindi division. Attock district’s biggest city is also called Attock which is on the Indus (Abasin). It used be part of NWFP, but it was tranferred to Punjab. Attock located right in between Islamabad and Peshawer.