[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed: *
Dude, I only visited Pakistan for 3 weeks last time. My map of the local areas is a bit fuzzy... Sorry.:)
[/QUOTE]
Adnan :)
No need to apologize...I was just kidding! Attock is not on many peoples maps, so I totally understand.
Yes, and your perception is wrong, as Punjabis never do that... If you meet a Punjabi, hes never going to be obsessed with the fact that hes a Punjabi... Ppl from the other provinces, especially NWFP tend to do that.
This is precisely the arrogant attitude that's putting us behind. So, my perceptions are automatically wrong and yours are right? And its totally okay for you to say other provinces are guilty of ethnocentrism when Punjab is not? How is that different from me saying Punjab is ethnocentric?
Some people are such hypocrites. Spock, you are a product of an army officer. I would expect nothing more from you except stupidity.
Im not the son of any army officer, and yet I feel the same way. Punjabis never pat themselves on the back for being Punjabi. You will never find a Punjabi nationalist party. Punjabis (at least those that I have met) dont usually distinguish themselves as Punjabi or asspcoiate themselves with some Punjabi homeland.
But you do find this amongst other provinces.
Example of a Sindhi sepratist site
The ANP…Need I say more.
Im sure there are many MANY patriotic Pakistanis all across Pakistan, but its also well known that there ae many in these provinces tat are completely against our country. I for one am never sure how much support there is for Pakistan outside of Punjab. Why deny reality…
And like I said before, it has nothing to do with ethnocentiricsm. Its just my immpresion of other provinces, that they are more concerned with their ethnic identity then their Pakistani identity, assuming there is one.
It appears to me that these people would most likely put their own ethnic identity ahead of Pakistan. You wont see a Punjabi ever doing this. Im NOT accusing you of not being patriotic, but you have to admit that there is a lotof anti Pakistan sentiment in many parts of the provinces outside of Punjab.
Still im not sure what your perception is, so if yo would be so kind as to elaborate it would be much appreciated.. Thanks.
Adnan Ahmed, the problem here is the stranglehold of Punjab over rest of Pakistan. Their has to be fairplay towards the underprviliedged. We get to hear Punjabi songs on PTV all day long, how about other langauges get their time too?
It's all about perception rather then reality when it comes to such matters. I don't know what the reality si and I don't think you do either, but I do know the perception of Punjab controlling the army and thus rest of Pakistan. All Pakistan needs is some freedom for local areas to do their own thing without being accused of being anti-pakistani. Their is too much hyper sensitivity among ruling Punjabis that they think when non-punjabis are talking of their own nationality and cause, they are being anti-pakistani.
And how many sindhis support that site you've posted up?
My opinion here wouldn't matter, because i'm not a sindhi...
My perception is as I've written it. As i've written it a million times. Again, it might be different from reality, but isn't it harmful to a country to have SO many folks who share this perception? So the logical solution would be for the accused side to make the effort to show they really dont have any ethnocentric feelings...
I'm still waiting.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PyariCgudia: *
So the logical solution would be for the accused side to make the effort to show they really dont have any ethnocentric feelings...
I'm still waiting.
[/QUOTE]
Please define this 'effort'
Adnan, you mentioned that the army has been ruling Pakistan continuosly, then you also mentioned that the majority of the army is punjabi and you also mentiopned aboput them favoring their province, you also mentioned that PAkistan = Punjab and still you ask why the people in the other provinces have anti-Pakistan sentiments??
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed: *
My family cant join anything since the are Ahmedi, can discrimination get any worse?
I sometimes laugh at the so called discrimination the other provinces complain of, I dont think they know what discrimanation is.
[/QUOTE]
Adnan, This statement is not really true because I know many ahmadis from Army personally and with higher ranks. I am not ruling out any discrimnation about ahmadis that a person may have. simply Cant join is not fair to state this situation. Ahmadis has done well joining Teahing and Army professions.
well i really want to put my response for this. I am from the accused ones, I am also a punjabi. I consider myself a Pakistani first.
Its not a fault of punjabis if they are greater in numbers, and they shouldnt be accused on every single thing is wrong for other pakistanis. I may not feel the sameway why non punjabis feel about a punjabi from all part of pakistan. I have only visited some Punjab Karachi and NWFP and met people from khi and other parts of pakistan in UK.
But I always ask other people why they hate us? because even they dont hate us, there is a feeling that we are not doing well for all pakistan.
I can admit this can be right to some extent. ITs not punjab to accuse, the whole pakistan is suffering from bad distribution of wealth. a poor punjabi, balochi, sindhi, pathan are in same situation. all of them worried about how to support their families.
lets take a bigger picutre, what i suggest the all revenue should be united. and distributed to all pakistan by population. thats what is not happening. a punjabi village without basic utilities and area like this in other provinces should be given more priority to other urban city developments
so these should come up near if not at the same satandard of living.
we are investing more and more where in urban areas and persue people from remote areas to move to these cities... creating more problems.
we should be investing seting up large projects near villages not in cities to provide economic support and it will create a better pakistan. equal in all provinces.
in political terms regional leaders will continue to play province card. they should be working for a better pakistan and for the people they represent.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Shak killS: *
well i really want to put my response for this. I am from the accused ones, I am also a punjabi. I consider myself a Pakistani first.
Its not a fault of punjabis if they are greater in numbers, and they shouldnt be accused on every single thing is wrong for other pakistanis. I may not feel the sameway why non punjabis feel about a punjabi from all part of pakistan. I have only visited some Punjab Karachi and NWFP and met people from khi and other parts of pakistan in UK.
But I always ask other people why they hate us? because even they dont hate us, there is a feeling that we are not doing well for all pakistan.
I can admit this can be right to some extent. ITs not punjab to accuse, the whole pakistan is suffering from bad distribution of wealth. a poor punjabi, balochi, sindhi, pathan are in same situation. all of them worried about how to support their families.
lets take a bigger picutre, what i suggest the all revenue should be united. and distributed to all pakistan by population. thats what is not happening. a punjabi village without basic utilities and area like this in other provinces should be given more priority to other urban city developments
so these should come up near if not at the same satandard of living.
we are investing more and more where in urban areas and persue people from remote areas to move to these cities... creating more problems.
we should be investing seting up large projects near villages not in cities to provide economic support and it will create a better pakistan. equal in all provinces.
in political terms regional leaders will continue to play province card. they should be working for a better pakistan and for the people they represent.
[/QUOTE]
hmmm, you say that "I am also a punjabi. I consider myself a Pakistani first."
and then you say this "a punjabi village without basic utilities and area like this in other provinces".... if you truly consider Pakistan first, why did you address Punjabi village first? Why didn't you use Pakistani village instead?
You also are aware that Punjabi's are in great numbers, this whole idea of united revenue and distributing it by population is favorable to Punjabi's only... East Pakistani's were a liability then and therefore Punjabi's wanted them to seperate and they succeeded, now Punjabi's are a liability... why should the other provinces want to live with Punjab?
The ruling setup in Pakistan is controlled by Punjabi's and Punjabi's are ethnocentric people, what do you expect? Injustice.... and injustice breeds violence, be prepared for it, no one is going to take this from you forever, nations in the past have tried what you are doing and their fate is known to all, change your attitude before its too late.
And please stop silly questions like "** I always ask other people why they hate us?**"
Reminds me of Americans who always want to know "Why the Muslims hate them so much?", you know the answer to this one don't you? well the same answer applies to the Punjabi's too, its their injustices towards the minorities that is the root cause of this feeling "that we are not doing well for all pakistan" that most of you wonder about.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Different: *
hmmm, you say that "I am also a punjabi. I consider myself a Pakistani first."
and then you say this "a punjabi village without basic utilities and area like this in other provinces".... if you truly consider Pakistan first, why did you address Punjabi village first? Why didn't you use Pakistani village instead?
You also are aware that Punjabi's are in great numbers, this whole idea of united revenue and distributing it by population is favorable to Punjabi's only... East Pakistani's were a liability then and therefore Punjabi's wanted them to seperate and they succeeded, now Punjabi's are a liability... why should the other provinces want to live with Punjab?
The ruling setup in Pakistan is controlled by Punjabi's and Punjabi's are ethnocentric people, what do you expect? Injustice.... and injustice breeds violence, be prepared for it, no one is going to take this from you forever, nations in the past have tried what you are doing and their fate is known to all, change your attitude before its too late.
And please stop silly questions like "** I always ask other people why they hate us?**"
Reminds me of Americans who always want to know "Why the Muslims hate them so much?", you know the answer to this one don't you? well the same answer applies to the Punjabi's too, its their injustices towards the minorities that is the root cause of this feeling "that we are not doing well for all pakistan" that most of you wonder about.
[/QUOTE]
He is making a point, that Punjabi villages (because that is what they are) are just as backwards as those of other provinces. Your trying your hardest to find a reason to hate Punjabis, so its not hard for you to fid a reason. Fact is, non Punjabis have just as many oppurtunities as Punjabis. IF OUR SUPERIOR NUMBERS are a burden on you, then get crackin and start producing more kids. Its not my fault that Punjabis reproduces like rabbits:) .
Your whole statemnt is without merit. Just the ramblings of a person who is to busy feeling sorry for himself, then actually doing anything practical.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed: *
He is making a point, that Punjabi villages (because that is what they are) are just as backwards as those of other provinces. Your trying your hardest to find a reason to hate Punjabis, so its not hard for you to fid a reason. Fact is, non Punjabis have just as many oppurtunities as Punjabis. IF OUR SUPERIOR NUMBERS are a burden on you, then get crackin and start producing more kids. Its not my fault that Punjabis reproduces like rabbits:) .
Your whole statemnt is without merit. Just the ramblings of a person who is to busy feeling sorry for himself, then actually doing anything practical.
[/QUOTE]
See what happens if I use your words against you...
"Your trying your hardest to find a reason to hate non-Punjabis, so its not hard for you to find a reason."
You did not respond to my previous posts which were addressed to you, unlike this one, to which you responded almost instantly....
Anyways.... East Pakistani's were in SUPERIOR NUMBERS , was it their fault?
Now lets use other words of yours against you, without any changes...
"Your whole statemnt is without merit. Just the ramblings of a person who is to busy feeling sorry for himself, then actually doing anything practical."
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Different: *
hmmm, you say that "I am also a punjabi. I consider myself a Pakistani first."
and then you say this "a punjabi village without basic utilities and area like this in other provinces".... if you truly consider Pakistan first, why did you address Punjabi village first? Why didn't you use Pakistani village instead?
You also are aware that Punjabi's are in great numbers, this whole idea of united revenue and distributing it by population is favorable to Punjabi's only... East Pakistani's were a liability then and therefore Punjabi's wanted them to seperate and they succeeded, now Punjabi's are a liability... why should the other provinces want to live with Punjab?
The ruling setup in Pakistan is controlled by Punjabi's and Punjabi's are ethnocentric people, what do you expect? Injustice.... and injustice breeds violence, be prepared for it, no one is going to take this from you forever, nations in the past have tried what you are doing and their fate is known to all, change your attitude before its too late.
And please stop silly questions like "** I always ask other people why they hate us?**"
Reminds me of Americans who always want to know "Why the Muslims hate them so much?", you know the answer to this one don't you? well the same answer applies to the Punjabi's too, its their injustices towards the minorities that is the root cause of this feeling "that we are not doing well for all pakistan" that most of you wonder about.
[/QUOTE]
the reason i name punjab cause I was just comparing all villages and backward areas of pakistan in all provinces. you didnt get the point I was making.
Punjabis are not burdon on Pakistan, they do contribute to pakistan, i agree khi is more commerical capital of pakistan, and it is good for pak.
cities like lahore, faisal abad and sialkot do contribute very well to pakistani exports with large amount along with karachi apart from Agricultural produce.
East Pakistanis separated ?ok it was fault all pakistanis, not punjabis only, Prime minister was from sindh who didnt admit success of Muajib
AMRY cheif and administrators were from NWFP
so my bro, stop thinking to be regional. provinces are nothing just virtual lines on the ground. all the people who live in pakistan are pakistanis. thats what i beleive in. its shoudnt make differenece if I am born in area called Punjab and my other fellow countrymen born in other provinces of pakistan. End of the day all are pakistanis.
I am sorry if I have ofended you anyway I dont have any person on his/her region, race or relegion.
the reason I ask them " why they hate us" is not like american cause american knows but they just ask.
I asked for myself to improve myself and get the opinion from other side.
counteries are merging (EU) and we still think about provicialism within a country.
May allah give us strength and courage to work for a better Pakistan.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Different: *
See what happens if I use your words against you...
"Your trying your hardest to find a reason to hate non-Punjabis, so its not hard for you to find a reason."
You did not respond to my previous posts which were addressed to you, unlike this one, to which you responded almost instantly....
Anyways.... East Pakistani's were in SUPERIOR NUMBERS , was it their fault?
Now lets use other words of yours against you, without any changes...
"Your whole statemnt is without merit. Just the ramblings of a person who is to busy feeling sorry for himself, then actually doing anything practical."
[/QUOTE]
Pardon, I missed your othr post. Pos it agan please.
As for East Pakistan, ask anyone on the site who I Punjabi and sane and they will tell you that they would have totally supported an East Pakistan govt. It was Yaya Khan and Bhutto who were against it (Bhutto being Sindhi). So that argument doesn't hold up.
You are a smart one arent ya. Lets end this here... Are you a patriotic Pakistani or just some loser wallowing in self pity?:)
You always seem to miss your own claim… **The reason Punjab is so succesful is because the majority of the Army is Punjabi and the Army has ruled Pakistan contiuously. So obviously they would favor their own province. **
Need I say more about the East Pakistan issue? Its the Pak Army’s WILL that prevails!
“The sovereignty of our country resides in the GHQ and ultimately it is the army’s will that prevails. It can abrogate the constitution and get away with it. Abrogation is treason but the army has done it repeatedly and that’s why it is the sovereign power. How can parliament be sovereign if it can be kicked out in five minutes and not a dog barks. Political institutions have been rendered either ineffectual or non-existent or weak, and the end result is that the army faces no difficulty in dismissing elected governments and then manipulating the next elections.”
Interview - Roedad Khan, former bureaucrat and presedential adviser
This is one that you missed…
Adnan, you mentioned that the army has been ruling Pakistan continuosly, then you also mentioned that the majority of the army is punjabi and you also mentioned about them favoring their province, you also mentioned that PAkistan = Punjab and still you ask why the people in the other provinces have anti-Pakistan sentiments??
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Shak killS: *
the reason i name punjab cause I was just comparing all villages and backward areas of pakistan in all provinces. you didnt get the point I was making.
Punjabis are not burdon on Pakistan, they do contribute to pakistan, i agree khi is more commerical capital of pakistan, and it is good for pak.
cities like lahore, faisal abad and sialkot do contribute very well to pakistani exports with large amount along with karachi apart from Agricultural produce.
East Pakistanis separated ?ok it was fault all pakistanis, not punjabis only, Prime minister was from sindh who didnt admit success of Muajib
AMRY cheif and administrators were from NWFP
so my bro, stop thinking to be regional. provinces are nothing just virtual lines on the ground. all the people who live in pakistan are pakistanis. thats what i beleive in. its shoudnt make differenece if I am born in area called Punjab and my other fellow countrymen born in other provinces of pakistan. End of the day all are pakistanis.
I am sorry if I have ofended you anyway I dont have any person on his/her region, race or relegion.
the reason I ask them " why they hate us" is not like american cause american knows but they just ask.
I asked for myself to improve myself and get the opinion from other side.
counteries are merging (EU) and we still think about provicialism within a country.
May allah give us strength and courage to work for a better Pakistan.
[/QUOTE]
Let me mention some comments made on this very thread then you decide whether provinces are virtual lines on the ground or not!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed: *
I doubt a Sindhi or Pathan or Balochi would ever consider themselves Pakistani first.
Another problem I have with the Pakistani minorties is this. **Punjabis are the only ones that seem to be patriotic towards Pakistan. They have no loyalties except towards Pakistan. It doesnt inspire much confidence in me when I see Sindhis thinking of themselves as a seperate country, and Pathans putting their tribes and Afghanistan before their own country, Mohajirs, who are Physically in Pakistan but emotionally in India, and the Kashmiris, who given the chance, would be a completely seperated from us.. **I dont want to put anyone down, but thats just the impresion I get.
[/quote]
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Punjab will not and must not be broken up. It is a province that has been a cohesive state since the Mughals, ofcourse that includes Indian Punjab. Nonetheless, if you call for the breakup of Punjab, then I or any other Pakistani could call for the break up for Sindh, Baluchistan and Sarhad on very similar grounds of the provinces having substantial ethnicities.
it is the Pakistan or Punjab haters who make the most noise-- often without facts. For example, on Gupshup you see that Zakk is clearly a patriotic Pakistani and although he criticizes Pakistanis or Punjabis, I don't mind because I know that we must criticize ourselves and correct our faults. On the other hand there are people here who hate Pakistan or Punjab as is and no matter how many facts you bring up theyll still be filled with hatred in their hearts-- those are folks whose opinions I do not care for.
[/quote]
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
there are a bunch of ppl (another vocal majority) in Sindh, NWFP and Baluchistan who have nothing better to do but carry out a wave of anti-Punjabi (and anti-Pakistani) propoganda and win sympathy from other anti-Pakistanis. However, I am glad the Punjabis are over this, and do not care about this, one of the very reasons they are progressing and have done so well in the field of business. These handful of people from the other provinces should learn from them and devote themselves into actually doing something for this country than to cry all the time.
[/quote]
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Akif: *
These guys should go back to worshipping a speakerphone.
[/quote]
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
On the other hand there are people here who hate Pakistan or Punjab as is and no matter how many facts you bring up theyll still be filled with hatred in their hearts.
[/quote]
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed: *
Its the Minorities themselves that deny themselves their own rights.
As for "Punjabis being the only Pakistanis," I dont think that, and I dont want that, but thats what non Punjabis make me feel.
I dont like seeing other provinces putting their provincial tribal identity before Pakistan. In Punjab, majority of people dont do that>? Is it my fault that is the immpresion I get from you non Punjabis?
As for poverty and backwardness of Sindh, like I said, its not Punjabs fault that your own leaders couldnt do anything for you. I can understand in the case of Balochistan, but Sindh? Didnt you guys have two prime ministers from the province?
And if your going to blame the Army, then why dont you people start trying to increase your numbers in the Army so that you can balance the equation in your favor?
[/quote]
Have you read the HRCP? Have you met people who have seen and experienced all that which actually took place, in those days?
Brother Punjab is a burden on the rest of the provinces, exactly the same way East Pakistan was on West Pakistan. The other provinces are better off without Punjab, but the same is not true for Punjab. Punjab relies on resources from other provinces but fails to share its own resources with others.
Brother don't get me wrong but after reading several posts on this thread alone, I firmly believe that at present "It does make a difference if you are born in an area called Punjab and your other fellow countrymen born in other provinces of pakistan. End of the day you alone are a patriotic pakistani and the rest of them are traitors or some loser wallowing in self pity."
And the question " why do they hate us?" that all Punjabi's ask is for the same reason for which the Americans ask this question, the Punjabi's know the cause but they pretend that they don't. I am unaware of your intentions though, but if people like Adnan Ahmed ask this question then you can tell that there actually is, no difference between the Americans and the Punjabi's.
Different: Very interesting that you rely on the words of others to advance your argument.
"Brother Punjab is a burden on the rest of the provinces, exactly the same way East Pakistan was on West Pakistan. The other provinces are better off without Punjab, but the same is not true for Punjab. Punjab relies on resources from other provinces but fails to share its own resources with others."
So your saying that either Punjab province is "kicked out" of Pakistan or the other provinces leave Pakistan? Either way we'll be taking Islamabad with us. I think Adnan and others stand vindicated on the point that you--Punjab hater is a traitor to Pakistan, because what your hollow argument consists of: Pakistan=Punjab and therein lies your mistake, Punjab is a subunit of Pakistan and we all give our allegiances to the nation not the province. But we will take a stand if the province is insulted.
"Brother don't get me wrong but after reading several posts on this thread alone, I firmly believe that at present "It does make a difference if you are born in an area called Punjab and your other fellow countrymen born in other provinces of pakistan. End of the day you alone are a patriotic pakistani and the rest of them are traitors or some loser wallowing in self pity.""
You have massive chips on your shoulder. I am damn proud of who I am whether it be Pakistani, Punjabi, Muslim, Rajput and I will defend the truth to the end, unlike others who hide (ashamed?) behind their computers spewing hatred. Since your so against Punjab where do YOU come from?
"And the question " why do they hate us?" that all Punjabi's ask is for the same reason for which the Americans ask this question, the Punjabi's know the cause but they pretend that they don't. I am unaware of your intentions though, but if people like Adnan Ahmed ask this question then you can tell that there actually is, no difference between the Americans and the Punjabi's."
I don't ask "why do they hate us" because it is peoples opinions and my words will not likely change opinions. I personally do not hate anyone from Pakistan PERIOD. I do think that most Pakistani people have reached the point of enlightenment where they realize that blaming entire groups of people will not solve anything. I think that you are here to annoy, insult groups of people, I truly feel sorry for the political entity that you claim allegiance to.
Brothers this different guy is i know an indian for a fact, he is just trying to cause trouble so just ignore him
Pakistan has been ruled by Sindhis, Kashmiris, Pashtuns, Punjabis, Immigrant families. by many different sects in Pakistan and by both men and women.
These leaders such as Ayub Khan, ZAB, Nawaz Sharif, Pervez Musharraf are not ethnically Punjabis, but have been voted in, and in the case of Military rulers supported by Punjabis. So the Punjabi card is well and trully busted.
If Muslim League QA forms the government then we will have our first Baluchi Prime Minister which would mean at the highest level, people of all provinces have had power
Pakistan is here to stay, because for all her problems she is the best hope for her constitient people. Don't be dis-heartened by a few extremists they exist in every society and every culture.
PAKISTAN PAINDABAD :)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PJ: *
Brothers this different guy is i know an indian for a fact, he is just trying to cause trouble so just ignore him
Pakistan has been ruled by Sindhis, Kashmiris, Pashtuns, Punjabis, Immigrant families. by many different sects in Pakistan and by both men and women.
These leaders such as Ayub Khan, ZAB, Nawaz Sharif, Pervez Musharraf are not ethnically Punjabis, but have been voted in, and in the case of Military rulers supported by Punjabis. So the Punjabi card is well and trully busted.
If Muslim League QA forms the government then we will have our first Baluchi Prime Minister which would mean at the highest level, people of all provinces have had power
Pakistan is here to stay, because for all her problems she is the best hope for her constitient people. Don't be dis-heartened by a few extremists they exist in every society and every culture.
PAKISTAN PAINDABAD :)
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, hes a provincial hate monger... They should be pissed off becoz the nationalist parties got whooped in the elections...