Wow so your saying an assumption is a FACT? inaccuracies in logic would you not agree?
You just proved that you put words in people's mouths. Take English 101. I said that its a FACT the assumption exists. Its a FACT that people feel this way, although whether what they feel is factual or a biased opinion, is up for discussion.
With all due respect Adnan by saying Punjabis have sacrificed more then any other people is just dead wrong. In effect you are calling the rest of us "traitors" who are you to Judge that?
While people like myself and Pyari are criticising policies which they "perceive" to be discriminatory, they are being called for all intents and purposes "traitors" and not good enough Pakistani's. There is a harsh difference between the two, criticising wrong policies is not a crime, it's called freedom of speech, calling someone anti Pakistani..not patriotic enough..IS a very very serious thing to say!
A criticism of large scale unfairness against people of other provinces is an established fact. Look at the article I posted about poverty which is significantly higher in Central and Southern Pakistan. There is plenty more to prove that the people of smaller provinces , esp Baluchsitan and Sindh are SUFFERING. They feel tehy are being robbed of what should be theirs automatically. You can argue till you are blue in your face, that belief is backed by facts. Now whether they are being robbed by the federal govt and corrupt bureaucrats is not what they see, they see people of Punjabi origin mostly being in charge of that robbery and when the protest they get called traitors and anti Pakistani. Mind you those bureaucrats wont do anything for their own people either, they'll just buy mansions in Isloo and tell everyone how great they are, but that perception needs a lot of hard work to be addressed.
Laslty puleeease don't use Ayub Khan as an example of Pashtuns, he was a Hindko speaker who did very little for anyone across the Indus, and ZA Bhutto..well what happened to him at the end is well known, using that formuka shouldn't Nawaz have been hanged? After all he created the slogan of "jaag Punjabi Jaag" and used to tell people never to vote for a Sindhi...that's what i call being provincial!
again it's the silent majority, who are not being represented they from what-ever province love their country PAKISTAN.
That is why main-stream parties usually win elections in the provinces !!
We are all brothers what-ever problems we have will be sorted out amongst ourselves
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
Laslty puleeease don't use Ayub Khan as an example of Pashtuns, he was a Hindko speaker who did very little for anyone across the Indus, and ZA Bhutto..well what happened to him at the end is well known, using that formuka shouldn't Nawaz have been hanged? After all he created the slogan of "jaag Punjabi Jaag" and used to tell people never to vote for a Sindhi...that's what i call being provincial!
[/QUOTE]
Zakk, Ayub Khan was a Tarin and his ancestors settled in Hazara. Are you going to say that Tarins are not Pashtun? Even in border districts of Punjab there are heavy numbers of Pashtu speaking Pashtuns, despite living in Punjab they identify their heritage differently and I believe them.
ZA Bhutto did some great things for Pakistan but don't forget his part in breaking up Pakistan (he lost the election yet he still wanted to hold on). Its interesting that you bring up NS who liked to act like a super-punjabi when his family is Kashmiri. Both his adminstrations were full of the Lahori-Kashmiri-Model Town-Mafia who may live in Punjab, but obviously considered themselves different and superior. The last Punjabi head of State we had was Gen. Zia.
I think its convenient to dissolve all blame from non-Punjabi heads of State by saying they "did not do anything for their home province." However the reality is that both Punjabi and non-Punjabi politicians had their chance and both tended up screw up in a grandiose manner. Perceptions are just a product of biases, lets look at reality.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by PyariCgudia: *
**Wow so your saying an assumption is a FACT? inaccuracies in logic would you not agree?*
You just proved that you put words in people's mouths. Take English 101. I said that its a FACT the assumption exists. Its a FACT that people feel this way, although whether what they feel is factual or a biased opinion, is up for discussion.
[/QUOTE]
Wow, out of all the points I made you could respond to only one..Amazing how you step into every discussion to bash Punjabis when its time to discuss the reality you back away.
Very well, I'll address this point of yours. Your logic is incorrect because of a straw man fallacy, your arguments just like the straw man collapse on analysis.
Rajput fury, I currently have exams going on...as soon as they're over, i'll reply to whatever you want me to reply to.
As for facts, the information that was provided initially at the beginning of the thread speaks great volumes. How can you explain the greater poverty in the south? Are we southern Pakistanis just lazy, or unpatriotic?
Lovely it is that you expect me to come up with prompt answers to your questions, yet you ignore the vast amount of evidence that has been provided, that in RELATIVE terms, 3/4 provinces have been deprived on the account of 1/4 provinces.
Until you explain to me why the statistics speak as they do, there is really nothing for me to argue with you about. In the end, you'll just be offended because you're a punjabi.
And as for putting words into my mouth, where did straw come in from? I think I put my idea forth very clearly. There is a difference between saying a general feeling among a group of people is true vs. that a general feeling among a group of people EXISTS.
And the fact is that it does EXIST. The real question here isn't about the blame factor, but what can we do to fix the problem? Or is it not a problem to begin with?
In the end, we Pakistanis are responsible for Pakistan is. And if Pakistan has amounted to nothing more than provincial disharmony, than we are to blame. And we ought to fix ourselves.
I agree I might have said some harsh things about Punjabis, and honestly, after meeting so many here, I think my views about the average Pakistani punjabi has changed drastically. But we all know that the average man has no more say in govt policies than a donkey. So the problem is not the Punjabi PEOPLE, but perhaps the provincial government? Or perhaps the disproportional representation in the govt? Is there even a disproportional representation? And honestly, calling people like me and Zakk unpatriotic or less of a Pakistani than the average Punjabi is plain ethnocentric. Its no better than Punjabi-bashing. (this is to guppies in general, not just to you rajputfury)
"Rajput fury, I currently have exams going on...as soon as they're over, i'll reply to whatever you want me to reply to."
Good Luck with exams!
"As for facts, the information that was provided initially at the beginning of the thread speaks great volumes. How can you explain the greater poverty in the south? Are we southern Pakistanis just lazy, or unpatriotic?"
The lowest poverty is in Nwfp (24%), shall we complain about that also? I think greater poverty levels have many explanations where volumes of books can be written about but the quick answer is: The never ending urban growth in Sindh and the lack of sustainable infustracture in Baluchistan.
"Lovely it is that you expect me to come up with prompt answers to your questions, yet you ignore the vast amount of evidence that has been provided, that in RELATIVE terms, 3/4 provinces have been deprived on the account of 1/4 provinces."
WHAT evidence?? The Development report by Zakk? Ok according to that there is a North vs South divide not Punjab vs the rest. The first article is an opinion piece and out to do one thing-- blame all ills on Punjab. Come up with EVIDENCE not opinion pieces. I mean I could start saying things about group X but what facts do have? The same applies to the sources. Besides I agreed with the need for development in the south, so what are YOU trying to prove?
"Until you explain to me why the statistics speak as they do, there is really nothing for me to argue with you about. In the end, you'll just be offended because you're a punjabi."
No, I'm particularly offended by your statements because you come here to bash Punjab without: 1. Ever visiting it. 2. Ever providing evidence (rather relying on Zakks evidence) 3. Saying that you HEARD from so and so about Punjabis. What offends me even more is that you don't do the hw on what your talking about. Its all nice sitting behind a computer blaming people or provinces without looking at history, economic factors, political realities.
"And as for putting words into my mouth, where did straw come in from? I think I put my idea forth very clearly. There is a difference between saying a general feeling among a group of people is true vs. that a general feeling among a group of people EXISTS."
Your words:
"uh HELLO!!!
speaking from some views i've gotten from people with first hand experiences...you can certainly go to the army and apply for the job, but the punjabi will get picked over u...you can't make a claim that non-punjabis aren't doing their part or aren't doing a good job for their country "
Your fallacy in bold. Once the mentioned statement is in doubt (an assumption) the rest of the arguments cannot be present as fact. To look at it another way, if the first sentence refering to your sources is proven wrong, your arguments collapse like a straw man. Your statements were not only presented as facts but also lack a qualifier. Since you did recommend me to go to English101, I did, and they told me to qualify the above statement by saying: "Or so I have been told" or something to that effect.
"And the fact is that it does EXIST. The real question here isn't about the blame factor, but what can we do to fix the problem? Or is it not a problem to begin with?"
Problems of inequality persist in every country. I would rather call for policy initiatives rather than rhetoric full of hatred. I was the one discussing solving the problem through autonomy not the breakup of provinces and you come here blaming Punjabis then you try to divert by asking to fix the problem, how royal is that!
"In the end, we Pakistanis are responsible for Pakistan is. And if Pakistan has amounted to nothing more than provincial disharmony, than we are to blame. And we ought to fix ourselves."
YES! thats what "we" were doing until everything became fixated on one province. My Pakistan has amounted more than provincial disharmony, it will be the next Asian tiger-- an economic, military, socially developed powerhouse. There will always be a small yet vocal majority of naysayers but we must clean them out before our growth is further hindered. I see more than enough Pakistanis working to better their land than I stopped caring about those who have hatred for their compatriots.
"I agree I might have said some harsh things about Punjabis, and honestly, after meeting so many here, I think my views about the average Pakistani punjabi has changed drastically. But we all know that the average man has no more say in govt policies than a donkey. So the problem is not the Punjabi PEOPLE, but perhaps the provincial government? Or perhaps the disproportional representation in the govt? Is there even a disproportional representation?"
Wow glad to finally read something that is balanced! I blame all politicians, heads of state whatever you call it. A poor villager from the plains of Punjab, or the towns of Sindh is poor nonetheless. My concern is for the average person regardless of background. I propose taking ALL politicians out of this discussion, do NS or BB represent Punjabis or Sindhis? Not a chance. Again if you want to blame anyone blame politicians and not just Punjabi ones because corruption has no bounds.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by PyariCgudia: *
**Its you people that dont consider yourselves Pakistani. We didnt impose anything on you.
You will never find a Punjabi saying anything against his country, but Pathans, Sindhis, many are openly Anti Pakistan. A few months back we had atleast two Sindhi sepratists on this site. One advocated for Sindh becoming and Indian state. Not to mention the whole Pashtunistan thing.*
.Spock, you nutjob, you just went ahead and assumed so much. I only said it would be a good idea to get some stats on enrollment and on admission applications for military service before you say that non-punjabis just dont make the effort to enroll in the military. I never ascertained why or how the enrollment figures are the way they are, because frankly I dont know too much on military service in Pakland. But the FACT is that among non-punjabis the general assumption is that the military is pro-punjabi and that its hard to make it big in the military if you're not urdu-speaking or punjabi. I admit, I do lean towards this hypothesis, but again, it would really be a good idea to get some statistics on enrollment up here, if they're available.
And AGAIN, I'll say that I'm not anti-punjabi. I have nothing against the punjabi awaam, but I certainly do have a problem when policies are being made the CLEARLY favor one province over another. I dont think a whole whopping THREE provinces would blame punjab for their troubles, when they're just lazy.
As for memons giving competition to punjabis in business...HELLO...we are giving you guys competition...isn't that why the fed minister of finance is a memon?? Have u heard of Adamjee insurance, Dawood industries, etc? I dont have much interest in it, so I dont have the companies memorized, but I'll be happy to get you a friggin list if you want! fuming.
[/QUOTE]
Good for you... You can have all the memons in the top slots, but the fact is that the people of Punjab really dont care, as they are too mature for this crying on the progress of other provinces crap...
Oh, and since you think that 1/4 of the country is running on the rest of the 3/4th, may I ask why you think that the people of Punjab are living like kings? There is an economic crisis in all the four provinces, not just the three...
And I never said you were anti-Pakistani, you appreciated your views, and you have the right to protest, afterall, just because youre from a different province does not mean you cannot complain to your brothers...
Oh, and thanks for the insult in your first line, your punjabi brother appreciates it.
There is an economic crisis in all the four provinces, not just the three...
Get ready guys. Its 2 in the morn so this will be the most brief response I've ever made here:
True, the whole country's economy is being flushed down the toilet. (Although, since Mush came in , I believe he's saved it from being completely flushed). However, I'm talking in a relative sense. Kind of like Punjab being the king of the poor beggars...I'm sorry if that simile was harsh, but darnit, its 2 in the morn. I can't think anymore.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by PyariCgudia: *
**Its you people that dont consider yourselves Pakistani. We didnt impose anything on you.
You will never find a Punjabi saying anything against his country, but Pathans, Sindhis, many are openly Anti Pakistan. A few months back we had atleast two Sindhi sepratists on this site. One advocated for Sindh becoming and Indian state. Not to mention the whole Pashtunistan thing.*
I'm still in disbelief over your statements, Adnan, I thought you were a patriot... you know the type that consider themselves Pakistanis before Punjabis or Sindhis or whatever it is that you are.
I'm seeing some punjabis malign non-punjabis here by saying they're not patriotic enough. Dude, I have PRIME TV in my house. If I was not patriotic, I'd have that substandard channel out of my house, replaced with some HBO. But I dont. (Of course, this is me with some humour.)
If its okay for you punjabis to get the IMPRESSION that we non-punjabis are not patriotic, then why do you guys go loco when someone comes here and says "well, the ratios are quite unbalanced in the Pak army...maybe there is some ethnic discrimination going on?". I mean, Rajputfury even ascertained that joining the military is a family kind of thing...so if you dont come from a family that doesn't have a military background, what are your chances of getting in? Lets be honest here. I'd really like to see some stats on the admissions for military service, because I think we're all assuming stuff when we dont know the facts (maybe even me), and it would be interesting to see if the majority of applicants really are punjabi, and if so... lets be productive and investigate the reasons. I doubt the reason is cuz non-punjabis are less patriotic...maybe it has to do with poor recruitment in certain areas?
Spock, you nutjob, you just went ahead and assumed so much. I only said it would be a good idea to get some stats on enrollment and on admission applications for military service before you say that non-punjabis just dont make the effort to enroll in the military. I never ascertained why or how the enrollment figures are the way they are, because frankly I dont know too much on military service in Pakland. But the FACT is that among non-punjabis the general assumption is that the military is pro-punjabi and that its hard to make it big in the military if you're not urdu-speaking or punjabi. I admit, I do lean towards this hypothesis, but again, it would really be a good idea to get some statistics on enrollment up here, if they're available.
And AGAIN, I'll say that I'm not anti-punjabi. I have nothing against the punjabi awaam, but I certainly do have a problem when policies are being made the CLEARLY favor one province over another. I dont think a whole whopping THREE provinces would blame punjab for their troubles, when they're just lazy.
As for memons giving competition to punjabis in business...HELLO...we are giving you guys competition...isn't that why the fed minister of finance is a memon?? Have u heard of Adamjee insurance, Dawood industries, etc? I dont have much interest in it, so I dont have the companies memorized, but I'll be happy to get you a friggin list if you want! fuming.
[/QUOTE]
Well, the truth has to be told yaar. I love the country and I have absolutely nothing against my countrymnen be they Sindhi Pathan or other. But when you have Sindhis who want to seperate, Pathans that want to create their own Pashtunistan, Northeners who would perfer to stick with Kashmiris, doesnt give me much hope.
Im not trying to malign anyone, I just say, if your PAKISTANI, then say it, if your not, then stop pretending.
I dont want to toot the Punjabi horn, but why is that Punjabis are the only ones that are always most patriotic?
And as for the Army, I dont think that is true, first I will admit thhe Army has always been majority Punjabi, even in the British days. But that does not mean that others are discriminated against. How else to explain the many minority people in the army? Look at Musharaf himself.
And if there were discrimination to that extent, then they should be asking for a Sindhi or Pathan or Baloch only contingent, unless they already have that.
I agree that there is discrimination, and many things have gone in favor of Punjab, but to say that Punjab controls everytning in politics is ridiculous. Perhaps because the Army being Punjabi majority, they favored their own province. But that could be over come if the other provinces increased their numbers in the Army aswell.. We really need to be more balanced.
How beautifully it has been planted in our minds
that Punjab is the criminal province and it is bad
enough to pass the buck for anything that happened
or happens anywhere in the country.
And now I really feel sorry for Punjab that never
reacts to this mudslinging only for the reason that
it does know how to play the Big Brother. I truly
wish that we learn to stop complaing and do our own
bit of duty towards Pakistan. Provincialism will
lead us nowhere. Why don't we understand this???
The report I quoted was incomplete I should add, if you include the tribal areas with NWFP ..poverty shoots up
Something similair happens in Central and Southern Punjab, where poverty is as severe as anywhere else in the country.
Army recruitment is quite fair, unfortuantely the Army suffers from a very bad image problem in Baluchsitan and Sindh, a result of brutal treatment at the hand of Zia ul haq and ZAB. Recently because of Pervaiz Musharrafs efforts special recruiting schemes in those areas have been hugely successful. But it will take time. Of course there was also prejudices against Baluchis and Sindhis, which have only now faded.
The worst example which I don't think anyone can defend is how the Navy is dominated by non coastal people. It's common sense that people who deal with the sea should be automatically more adept and more selected into the Navy! Unfortunately Pakistan is one of very few countries where the opposite has happend. To me that is discrimination, despite whatever anyone else says..
RF: I menat no offense to the people of Pathan heritage..in fact the Hindko speakers in Peshawar, Kohat tend to be very anti Islamabad babus ..they believe they are being discrimintad against ..and some are surprisingly are very bitter about the way they are treated in Punjab.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Amal: *
How beautifully it has been planted in our minds
that Punjab is the criminal province and it is bad
enough to pass the buck for anything that happened
or happens anywhere in the country.
And now I really feel sorry for Punjab that never
reacts to this mudslinging only for the reason that
it does know how to play the Big Brother. I truly
wish that we learn to stop complaing and do our own
bit of duty towards Pakistan. Provincialism will
lead us nowhere. Why don't we understand this???
[/QUOTE]
Spot on... however, this feeling is more prevalent in Pakistanis abroad, and ofcourse, the Indians ;)
"The report I quoted was incomplete I should add, if you include the tribal areas with NWFP ..poverty shoots up
Something similair happens in Central and Southern Punjab, where poverty is as severe as anywhere else in the country."
Well I do see merit in that argument but as the single and thus quotable source of the whole thread I'd rather stand by it. The point is that a North-South Divide exists not only to reference the WB report but also because I have had the opportinuty to visit all the provinces with the exception of Baluchistan.
"Army recruitment is quite fair, unfortuantely the Army suffers from a very bad image problem in Baluchsitan and Sindh, a result of brutal treatment at the hand of Zia ul haq and ZAB. Recently because of Pervaiz Musharrafs efforts special recruiting schemes in those areas have been hugely successful. But it will take time. Of course there was also prejudices against Baluchis and Sindhis, which have only now faded."
I agree and also accept that the Army's heavy handedness has contributed to the negative image. But to be fair and not to politicize the matter further, I think the Baluchistan rebellion and Urban Sindh terrors had to be dealt with and certainly the politicians could not accomplish anything to soothe many of the justifable grievances of Baluchis and Sindhis. On the other hand, I would fully support the military in crushing secessionist movements, we lost half the country and I don't believe in losing any more.
"The worst example which I don't think anyone can defend is how the Navy is dominated by non coastal people. It's common sense that people who deal with the sea should be automatically more adept and more selected into the Navy! Unfortunately Pakistan is one of very few countries where the opposite has happend. To me that is discrimination, despite whatever anyone else says.."
Yes, I agree. There has been a heavy recruitment drive in Baluchistan for the Navy. I hope it can yield results that change the balance.
"RF: I menat no offense to the people of Pathan heritage..in fact the Hindko speakers in Peshawar, Kohat tend to be very anti Islamabad babus ..they believe they are being discrimintad against ..and some are surprisingly are very bitter about the way they are treated in Punjab."
I believe you. All I was saying was that Pashtuns whereever they may be settled are still Pashtuns. If Ayub Khan was raised in a Hindko part of Sarhad, it doesn't mean he isn't Pashtun anymore. I know about the attitudes of Hinkians, the problem is that in NWFP Pashtuns don't accept them and the same applies in Punjab. At one time I would say that they were mixed, but not anymore. My father in law (to be), told me an interesting thing: Anyone calling themselves "Pathans from NWFP" are Hinkians and most urdu speakers calling themselves Pathans are probably descendents. I am not sure it holds true in the larger world.
But when you have Sindhis who want to seperate, Pathans that want to create their own Pashtunistan, Northeners who would perfer to stick with Kashmiris, doesnt give me much hope... I dont want to toot the Punjabi horn, but why is that Punjabis are the only ones that are always most patriotic?
I guess you're speaking from your own experience here. However, not all non-punjabis are separatists...in fact, only a minority are! Plus, those dorks are probably being pushed by outside forces to be separatist. Secondly, who said every punjabi is patriotic? I'll tell you what. There is a pretty big group of punjabis out where I live that shop from a desi store run by Punjabi Indian hindus, when there is a perfectly good Karachi man running another store just a few streets away. Why dont these Pakistani punjabis go to the Paki's store?
Not all Punjabis are patriotic, and not all non-punjabis are non-patriotic. If you try to categorize like that, then you're no better than any punjabi basher.
but to say that Punjab controls everytning in politics is ridiculous. I dont know of anyone saying this. At least not me. We are sighting the ethnic issue as ONE of Pakistan's MANY problems.
Perhaps because the Army being Punjabi majority, they favored their own province. But that could be over come if the other provinces increased their numbers in the Army aswell.. We really need to be more balanced.
I agree here, but the question is how do you balance things out? I'm sure there is no genetic factor in Punjabis that make them better fit to be soldiers. Heck, I hear Balochis can be pretty fierce warriors. That's why I asked, is there a problem with recruitment?
DUDETTE no one asked you to have Prime TV (when did it become an indicator of Patriotism?) I don't have prime TV, I don't watch Paki dramas (or any of the Indian stuff for that matter), so I guess I'm less of a Pakistani?
Um...didn't u read the part where I said that's my attempt at humour? Having Prime TV or not having it doesn't necessarily determine if you're patriotic, but if you're not enjoying the entertainment the channel provides you and you still keep it so that the channel gets money from you in hopes that they'll improve, then I think its a SIGN of patriotism, no? Actually, as a side note, I think Prime has improved a lot since I've gotten it, and I'm somewhat more comfortable with the channel now. But still, they need a lot more improvement.
Yea I said Military is a family thing-- which btw includes Hazaras and Pashtuns. I don't like to beat around the bush like you do with talking to people who were rejected, second hand guesses, wild assumptions etc. Its not about your mamays getting you in like some third rate Paki job or university, its about you passing the exams, the physicals etc. To be be fair though, having a family in the military does give an advantage in the sense that the little kids are groomed for the armed forces but hell anyone can be as smart and as fit and as patriotic. You and I know the truth that educated parents tend to have educated children, so why cry about the military? On the flip side there are countless examples of people from the underrepresented provinces of Sindh, Baluchistan being in the military. What you totally neglect is the history, read up on it and then argue about why the military is so centralized.
Just to clarify something, I hope you dont mean to say that only military families are educated, and only the children of military families are suitable for being in the military. The whole point of the military issue is that there has been discrimination, and I think you've accepted that. My point is that its ethnic discrimination, although from some of your previous words, it makes me happy to know that the military realizes the problem and is at least making the attempt to fix it (ex. recruitment in balochistan). However, you are saying there are countless examples of non-punjabis in the military, which I dont dispute. I'm not saying a whopping 99 percent of the military is punjabi. Even though there are a lot of non-punjabis in the army, the percentages clearly show either discrimination or lack of expanding recruitment in nonpunjabi areas...or maybe they indicate something else, and I'm just missing it.
Besides you will never have an accurate date on enrollment in the military PERIOD.
Date on enrollment? I want stats on percentages of various ethnicities in enrollment. And if these stats aren't available, I'm curious, why?
HAH! Miss you have proven time and tim again that you hate Punjabis. I challenge you to find one message of mine in which I attacked any one province like you have..for someone whose never been to Punjab you know aweful a lot to bash the province.
You dont need to attack any province, because those other provinces are victims of discrimination, although again I stress this isn't the only problem facing the country. I have never been to Punjab, but I certainly dont have to go there to be able to interpret information put up here, like what Zakk puts up. I dont have to go to Punjab to see the intense Punjabi influence in Karachi to the point where ethnic discrimination is a KNOWN FACTUAL occurence in the city. I am not going to say its a wide-spread occurrence, or a frequently occurring one. But, I can figure already someone will take my comment to mean just that. Although, again, I will admit that favoritism is found everywhere in Pakistan, and sometimes your degree means khak to an employer, regardless of your ethnicity.
And no, I dont hate punjabis. If I hated Punjabis, my closest guppie friends would not be punjabis.
WHAT evidence?? The Development report by Zakk? I mean I could start saying things about group X but what facts do have? The same applies to the sources. Besides I agreed with the need for development in the south, so what are YOU trying to prove?
I'm trying to prove that developement needs to take place in the south, not only in Punjab!! I have said that so many times. But then you guys turn it around and call it punjabi bashing. I'm sorry. I'll say it again. Revenue gets generated all over Pakistan and Punjab gets more than its share of developement while the other three provinces are left behind. Point: developement needs to take place in the three other provinces as well.
Point that YOU guys think I'm trying to make and I'm NOT: Developement needs to take place only in sindh, or developement should stop in Punjab and start everywhere else, or the punjabi common man is responsible for the imbalance.
Ab Kuch clear hua??
No, I'm particularly offended by your statements because you come here to bash Punjab without: 1. Ever visiting it. 2. Ever providing evidence (rather relying on Zakks evidence) 3. Saying that you HEARD from so and so about Punjabis. What offends me even more is that you don't do the hw on what your talking about. Its all nice sitting behind a computer blaming people or provinces without looking at history, economic factors, political realities.
As much as visiting a place does help, let me ask you...how do you think me visiting punjab would change my thoughts? I'd love to visit punjab, dont get me wrong, but do you have to provide passport evidence here to show you've visited Lahore to talk about it? Surely you can learn about a place by not visiting it! And the problem isnt the punjabi villager or city-dweller, its the punjabi with power : the chaudry, the politician, the rich rich businessman with intense influence in the govt, the military man who's taking advantage of his position, etc. So how is visiting Lahore or Gujranwala going to help me understand these people?
I've relied on evidence provided not just by Zakk, but by a lot of people. In fact, I even posted up an article I came across in the Dawn a few months ago, but that thread got shut down since apparently I did not pose a discussion question with it...
plus, I've provided a lot of evidence in terms of military ethnic ratios(already discussed here by you and Zakk), tax laws, moving of the capitol, bias in the entertainment field, poverty distribution, etc.
Granted I posted all of this in another thread - remember, the one where you and I had a really big show-down? I've already posted it, and I dont feel like revisiting the issue, because its going to blow up again into a huge personal argument where punjabis get offended, and where I'm attacked as being anti-punjabi for no good reason.
The facts exist and they're in front of you. To be quite honest Rajputfury, I think you're quite honest with yourself about it as you do admit that certain inequalities do exist. And I really do wish that non-punjabis did not have to feel like they were being cheated by a slim ethnic majority. However, they do feel discrimination. You have the option of trying to understand where this discrimination comes from, dispell it in whatever way you can, or you can get fired up and accuse people that speak out as being anti-punjabi and unpatriotic. By the second choice, you're only pushing us non-punjabis to feel that you guys dont want to listen to us to begin with. And that wont help the provincialism issue.
Your words:
speaking from some views i've gotten from people with first hand experiences...you can certainly go to the army and apply for the job, but the punjabi will get picked over u...you can't make a claim that non-punjabis aren't doing their part or aren't doing a good job for their country "
Rajputfury: Your fallacy in bold. Once the mentioned statement is in doubt (an assumption) the rest of the arguments cannot be present as fact...Since you did recommend me to go to English101, I did, and they told me to qualify the above statement by saying: "Or so I have been told" or something to that effect.
PCG: If you look at the bold highlighted part of my sentence, I was trying to do just that. I guess I didn't do a good job of making my intention clear. What I did mean was that certain people have shared views with me, and according to those views I have that IMPRESSION. Of course, If I've got an impression, it doesn't mean that its true. Adnan Ahmed has the impression that non-punjabis aren't patriotic, but I dont see that as being true. And impressions change, so do try to change my impression. To go back to the statement's contents, do you think that discrimination doesn't exist at levels like employment, etc? I mean, do you think I've been lied to and that this trend doesn't exist? Keep in mind, my association is predominantly with Karachi, so the particular issue I've brought up is regarding Karachi. The same problem may not exist in Quetta or Hyderabad.
Problems of inequality persist in every country. I would rather call for policy initiatives rather than rhetoric full of hatred. I was the one discussing solving the problem through autonomy not the breakup of provinces and you come here blaming Punjabis then you try to divert by asking to fix the problem, how royal is that!
Dude.
If I hated punjab, wouldn't I call for its break-up? Quite the contrary, I posted that breaking up Punjab isn't the solution. And I agree with you that if we break up Punjab, then every punjabi has the right to call for a break up of the other provinces. Secondly, no I did not give any rhetoric full of hatred, although I may certainly have given the impression early on when I first started posting in the forum. However, I thought we had already been thru that. Everyone was under the assumption, rightly so, that I was talking about Punjabis in general, when I was actually talking about Punjabis in power, like politicians. I did use the word "punjabis" to refer to that particular group, and I did clarify it right then and there that I had meant politicians, etc.
Before you fix a problem, though, you've got to figure out what it is. If you're trying to FIX a problem, then why are you getting uptight when people like me and Zakk are starting out by defining WHAT the problem is. For example, it was first established that the navy is not made up of coastal people , majority wise. Then the solution was posed that recruitment needs to be emphasized in the south, near the sea areas. Which you confirmed was beginning to happen.
But the problem is that there are too many people here, not necessarily you, that dont even want to accept that discrimination is an issue needing attention. Again, it may not be the country's biggest problem, but its a problem. HOw can a country work, when 3/4 of it are suspicious of 1/4 of cheating them? Maybe its in our heads that there were even pro-punjabi policies being made. But dont ya think that its unlikely for 3 provinces to all share the same feeling, and there is no truth to it?
YES! thats what "we" were doing until everything became fixated on one province. My Pakistan has amounted more than provincial disharmony, it will be the next Asian tiger-- an economic, military, socially developed powerhouse. There will always be a small yet vocal majority of naysayers but we must clean them out before our growth is further hindered. I see more than enough Pakistanis working to better their land than I stopped caring about those who have hatred for their compatriots.
And we shold also clean out all those who wish to favor one province over the other, right? Definitely, Sindhi separatists need to be put back in their place. But how will you do it? Will you send in the army to surpress them, or will you attempt to talk to them, understand what they want as Pakistanis, and try your best to accomodate their needs?
For God's sake, there is no water in Sindh or Balochistan!! What is the government doing? Yet, Punjab doesn't have the same shortage of water. You might come up with explanations, sure, I'll agree with them too. But does that mean the government has no responsibility to provide Sindh and Balochistan with water?? A BASIC need? So why isn't Punjab providing water to Sindh/Balochistan? This is one example. Granted, however, there's been some improvement here with the mush regime.
Wow glad to finally read something that is balanced! I blame all politicians, heads of state whatever you call it. A poor villager from the plains of Punjab, or the towns of Sindh is poor nonetheless. My concern is for the average person regardless of background. I propose taking ALL politicians out of this discussion, do NS or BB represent Punjabis or Sindhis? Not a chance. Again if you want to blame anyone blame politicians and not just Punjabi ones because corruption has no bounds.
do leaders represent their people? Hmm...here I guess you've touched upon a debatable issue. The issue may not be about representation though, but about playing the right cards. Perhaps they thought they could go further in their crimes if they could appease the punjabi politicians? I remember one commentator writing that Benazir, although she's sindhi i think, favored Punjab in some of her policies to get reelected...although I dont have that article on me, so I can't cite this example as a concrete one. Perhaps someone knows what I'm talking about...?
Oh and of course, non-punjabi politicians are not any better. Its just that, from what I understand, there are more punjabi politicians in the government, so perhaps the numbers factor in...?
I'm sooooo sorry for the really long reply rajput, I hope you dont mind.
If you do, let me know.
When a Punjabi claims that he is the most patriotic Pakistani, in a way he is right, because to a Punjabi Punjab & Pakistan are two different names for the same piece of land, i.e. Punjab.
So when a Punjabi is claiming that he is the most patriotic Pakistani he actually means he is very patriotic towards what we all know as Punjab. Non-Punjabi’s should never get offended by the claims of a Punjabi, because we all know that Punjabi’s were against the creation of Pakistan. There’s only one province that gives less and takes more, and we all know its Punjab.
Punjab has a long tradition of supplying mercenaries to different invaders and rulers. These mercenaries came from all religions and creeds. Ranjeet Singh's military was expanded by these mercenaries. But when going got tough in Punjab after Ranjeet Singh's death, Britishers took over this military and used them around the world, (including shooting at Khana Kaaba). The British Colonial rule in India was maintained by mercenaries in the form of landlords whom British had rewarded handsomely for fighting with their own countrymen. The British propaganda developed sophisticated language for them; such as "martial castes," whose qualifying condition was a willingness and capacity to kill their own countrymen. This section of the society also contributed towards negation of nationalism. Most of the history of Pakistan is also a proof of this fact.
The truth is that a Punjabi can never be anything but a Punjabi first, no matter what his religion is or what country he belongs to, he is a Punjabi first and only then is he something else. To a Punjabi it makes no difference as to who rules them in terms of faith, they don’t have any problems with any religion. As long as the one who rules is a Punjabi or a pro-Punjabi, he being a Sikh, Muslim or Hindu doesn’t change anything. They have a very strong lobby and its this Punjabi lobby that is the root cause of most of all the problems that contemporary Pakistan is going through, no matter who rules Pakistan this lobby remains the same. Now a Punjabi would always point out that so and so is a non-Punjabi and he has ruled Pakistan but the truth is that no elected ruler has been able to rule Pakistan without treating Punjab in a special way.
They claim that they are the one’s who are willing to go in the army and no one else isn’t, and they use this to prove their claim of being the most patriotic towards Pakistan. The truth is that a Punjabi would do anything to protect its interests, and a Punjabi’s interests are always materialistic. Joining the army is one of them; they are proud of this and boast about their loyalty to the British, totally ignoring the fact that they supported the British against their own countrymen. They don’t care about anyone other than themselves, and this is the impression we get about them from their own past. They accuse others for being traitors yet they themselves are the biggest traitors. They themselves believe that Pakistan = Punjab and this way whenever they talk about Pakistan they are actually talking about Punjab, but when a Sindhi talks about Sindh they cannot assimilate this, and they use this to justify their claims that a non-Punjabi doesn’t care about Pakistan. Just because they themselves use Pakistan instead of Punjab doesn’t make them any different from a Sindhi or Baluchi talking about his province.
We all are aware of the army’s role in Pakistan, we all know how much is spent by the army for the army. The Pak army is used more against its own people than it is used against “the enemy”. What did the army do in 1971? The truth is that even the Pak Army thinks like a Punjabi because it’s full of Punjabis, the Punjabi’s hated the Bengali’s and they wanted to get rid of them anyway, and they were successful. If the Pakistani Army had more Pakistani’s than Punjabi’s, things would have been different in 1971. East Pakistan was a liability and that’s the reason they wanted to get rid of it, the reason why Pakistan is intact today is only because Punjab cannot develop on its own resources, it can survive but development in Punjab depends on resources from the other Provinces. In other words Sindh, Baluchistan and NWFP were assets for Punjabi’s and East Pakistan was a liability, and this is why Pakistan is what it is today. They say that they don’t want to lose more of Pakistan, but the truth is that if today any province becomes a liability like East Pakistan did, they would treat it in a similar way they treated Bengalis.
People don’t have water to drink in many parts of Pakistan, and in Lahore they are installing water fountains to “beautify the city”, there is no electricity in so many places and in Lahore you have so many powerful lights which are installed outside buildings and are on all night! So many homeless people and in Lahore they are building all these fancy structures almost everywhere! And on top of all this, Punjabi’s are the most patriotic. Sheesh
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
"Um...didn't u read the part where I said that's my attempt at humour? Having Prime TV or not having it doesn't necessarily determine if you're patriotic, but if you're not enjoying the entertainment the channel provides you and you still keep it so that the channel gets money from you in hopes that they'll improve, then I think its a SIGN of patriotism, no? Actually, as a side note, I think Prime has improved a lot since I've gotten it, and I'm somewhat more comfortable with the channel now. But still, they need a lot more improvement."
Prime TV or entertainment choice are in no way signs of patriotism. Think about that statement. More Pakis watch Indian films, are they less patriotic or if you have Paki tv on 24/7 are you an uber patriot. Entertainment is preferential based so lets leave it at that. I say if you don't like prime tv or whatever thing Pakistani then dump it! You as a consumer is a lot different from you as a patriot. Only time I would say I'd buy something Pakistani if its unique to the country or if the quality, price is the same as the non-Pakistani product.
"Just to clarify something, I hope you dont mean to say that only military families are educated, and only the children of military families are suitable for being in the military."
No and yes. I don't know where you got the idea that only military families are educated because I never said anything of that sort. And yes, under the current suitation children or even associates of military folks are suitable (based on enrollment) it is because your family member in the armed forces can condition you to have that frame of mind. Its like the children of doctors, have an advantage (unfair?) over others because of exposure to the field. Certainly does not mean that anyone else cannot join, its all about knowing the requirements. Also don't forget that if you don't meet the physical requirements, your not getting in no matter what your family connections might be because remember this is about defending a country not living large (although the latter seems more true these days).
"The whole point of the military issue is that there has been discrimination, and I think you've accepted that."
No! where did I accept that? You make way too many ASSUMPTIONS. I told you the reality of the armed forces being centralized and you put words in my mouth by saying its discrimination. Just so you know, every country have a level of centralization of its armed forces. Even in the US, the Southerm recruits outnumber Northeasterners (hick appeal as my Navy Seal buddy calls it).
"My point is that its ethnic discrimination, although from some of your previous words, it makes me happy to know that the military realizes the problem and is at least making the attempt to fix it (ex. recruitment in balochistan)."
Yes common logic dictates in order to be in the Navy you must love the water. Baluchis-Makranis dominate Sindh & Baluchistan in that regard.
"However, you are saying there are countless examples of non-punjabis in the military, which I dont dispute. I'm not saying a whopping 99 percent of the military is punjabi. Even though there are a lot of non-punjabis in the army, the percentages clearly show either discrimination or lack of expanding recruitment in nonpunjabi areas...or maybe they indicate something else, and I'm just missing it."
I think its a combination between the lack of success in recruiting in Sindh and Baluchistan (as Zakk mentioned) and the maintanence of status quo. I mean the areas I mentioned span N.Punjab and NWFP, that have been used for recruiting for centuries. "Cannon Fodder" is what the brits and our very own ZAB used to call the recruits.
"Date on enrollment? I want stats on percentages of various ethnicities in enrollment. And if these stats aren't available, I'm curious, why?"
Stats are unavailable because Pakistan Armed forces do not like to divide the armed forces nor does the adminstration try to politicize the issue like it has been here on gupshup. The date of enrollment can tell you "Person X recruited from Dadu district" and that as I'm sure you can tell is unreliable because there is a mix of ethnicities in every part of Pakistan. Frankly, I'm glad that no such stats are available because I know for a fact that anti-Pakistani elements would exploit them. However from my personal perspective and the opinion of the experts I can tell you that heavy recruits come from certain areas.
"You dont need to attack any province, because those other provinces are victims of discrimination, although again I stress this isn't the only problem facing the country. I have never been to Punjab, but I certainly dont have to go there to be able to interpret information put up here, like what Zakk puts up."
Well I'd suggest that you take a trip to Punjab and may I recommend the Attock area in particular. You want to see the LACK of hatred and everyone getting along thats the place! Don't go expecting rich people living in palaces or anything, its a very working class area with some industrialization, and I thank God for that because it had absolutely nothing (poor soil, low resources) before industry.
"I dont have to go to Punjab to see the intense Punjabi influence in Karachi to the point where ethnic discrimination is a KNOWN FACTUAL occurence in the city. I am not going to say its a wide-spread occurrence, or a frequently occurring one. But, I can figure already someone will take my comment to mean just that. Although, again, I will admit that favoritism is found everywhere in Pakistan, and sometimes your degree means khak to an employer, regardless of your ethnicity."
Lets not talk about Karachi because after Punjabis the next villians are the urdu speakers in the eyes of Sindhis and truth be told Karachi had ethnic tensions LONG before Punjabis even came in. Favoritism is what is destroying the country.
"And no, I dont hate punjabis. If I hated Punjabis, my closest guppie friends would not be punjabis."
I suggest that you read what you wrote eealier and then tell me if I'm crazy to think that you hate Punjabis. As for the last statement: I can't be a racist my I'm friends with Black people! (as if that buys immunity).
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
On the other hand there are people here who hate Pakistan or Punjab as is and no matter how many facts you bring up theyll still be filled with hatred in their hearts.
[/QUOTE]
I am glad to see that there are more people apart from me who think that this thread is NOTHING but an opportunity for point-making. Argument for the sake of argument has been the only production of this all discussion so far. Just more confusion and hate this thread is poised to produce and what all the participants will end up with is a more biased mind.