The Systematic Degradation of Men's Rights (MEN)

Re: The Systematic Degradation of Men's Rights (MEN)

Mamaof3, Thank you for realizing that! This is not a men vs women issue, but a moral issue. For morality demands fairness in treatment, and where they are persecuted, I would stand up as much for women's rights.

Chavy, I am not sure about the 'testosterone fuelled egotism' of men causing the market crash, but I do think if it wasn't for the man's ambition to succeed, there would not be a market to start with.

The other argument demanding equal treatment regardless of competency or knowledge, fails the fundamental test of morality, which in turn makes it advocating for 'unequal treatment', and the whole argument falls apart. I hope you can see that. Men and women should be treated equally and fairly, and let competence alone be a measure of that.

Re: The Systematic Degradation of Men's Rights (MEN)

you know what pisses me off?? when guys dont open doors for girls..or dont pull out chairs for them ...becoz we re all equall....:(((

Then come to Germany, I show you a Woman who has a Family Business. Worh 5 Billion $. She bought 90 % of Conti's Share. The car industry crashed down and a debt of 10 Billion $ came out. She needs 5 Billion $ now to save it.

This is the problem. Both think that they are better than the other gender and competition needs to be held. As long as people don't come back to normal life and think that all human beings are equal. They won't have success.

All have the same rights.

Why do we have to face the finance crisis? Both do not know what to make with money and it's wasted on 'snip'. The Queen owns 1/6 of this Earth. Is this just?

The Queen. Why I do call her the Queen?

Comeback to reality and we won't face trouble in future.

Again, you say women are not treated unfairly anymore. Can you back that up with statistics? Are there more abused males at the hands of females now? Do women on average make more than men across all fields? (Dare to expand your argument to include other countries than the US?). To date more women exist in secretarial position than in managerial ones despite the fact that women hold more and more advanced degrees. and to an extent this is because we do not "fit" into the male-friendly environment that makes up most workplaces. We cant go grab that beer after work with the boss ...act like one of the guys (admit it....most of the times this is what gets you a promotion) I think if more women were in managerial positions we would do away with such expectations.

and lets look at african americans.You could go to the bureau of justice for statistics on how many black youth are in US prisons? You will find the number is HUGELY disproportionate to their population in America. Policing strategies are only recently being reported to have a negative affect on their communities....in the past they applied zero tolerance and mass imprisonment strategies which destroyed black communities. Have u seen the pretty boy policemen in manhattan? trust me, they look nothing like the badass policemen in the bronx. a bunch of poor black youth "hanging out" in the bronx has a completely different meaning that a bunch of white guys hanging outside Tiffany's in manhattan. Who is the police likely to stop and frisk more? You can place an anti-discrimination law into effect, but can you make sure it is enforced at the individual level?

Every year the US department of housing and urban development reports how many black people reported being discriminated against when it comes to housing. Residential segregation is why so many blacks are confined to inner cities where they fall prey to even MORE crime. The thing is that this discrimination against them is COVERT....not done openly. If a black guy calls me for a house in a nice neighborhood and i am a real estate agent, covert discrimination would simply be not to return his call (can he prove i discriminated? no...)

These laws are in place not so much because there is a systematic discrimination against blacks (and women), but they are there to deal with personal biases and to ensure people actually have a justifiable reason for foregoing one applicant over another (not just on the basis of gender or race).

once the statistics show that women are actually being treated equal to men, i have no problem in doing away with such laws. Unfortunately, personal bias and covert discrimination is harder to do away with even if a set of laws are in place by the government.

Behind every great man there is a women. We owe our success to women kind!

Shweetz...you have a point in a way...but then again there is a harsh reality about african americans. If there is an african american who speaks proper english and holds a professional job (or even a blue-collar job)...doesnt speak "Ebonics", doesnt wear "gansta" clothing...then there is no prob with them living in even the most lily-white of neighborhoods. These african americans are typically frowned upon by their brothren as being "Uncle Toms"...ie., they are viewed as trying to be "white".

African americans have far more opportunity for college admissions, jobs and job advancement. Why? because they are a "minority". Wouldnt you think they'd take more advantage of that? Listen to Bill Cosby on the subject, he castizes them and encourages them to take full advantage of the opportunities available to them before it goes away - as it will since they will not be a minority much longer.

And these people...who are their heros? OJ Simpson. Yes I know I sound racist here. But I present an accurate picture of the state of things (in metro NY anyway). I've worked with more than a few very impressive African Americans who I'd not hesitate to have as neighbors, guests and/or friends. But the majority? They are into the whole "gangsta" mentality, they view whites as the enemy and social defiance is the rule rather than the exception. The day that OJ was declared "not guilty, New York city came to a halt. The Afr Americans stopped whatever they were doing - taxi drivers jumped out of their cabs, deli and restaurant workers left their jobs...horns were blaring and there was dancing in the streets. You would think they had accomplished something bigger than a landing on the moon.

Try going to a fast food restaurant in NYC. If you are black, you get pretty good service. If you're white, you get extremely slow and poor service, check your order because more likely than not, theres something missing. If you have the nerve to complain, be ready for a real tongue-lashing like its YOUR fault.

I probably sound really racist here. But really I dont have a prob with african americans who conduct themselves in a civilized manner. I am resentful of the many ignored opportunities they are offered based on their heritage - opportunities that I never had because I'm white. So I worked full time and went to college part time at night - something I'd not have had to do if I were black.

Lets see what happens now that we have an "Uncle Tom" in the white house. Perhaps the fair winds of change are blowing the right way Inshallah.

The evident bias in your words is a reason for me to say that deliberate avoidance of rationality should not be incorporated into the argument. If you read my arguments carefully, you'll find that never once did I claim that women did not suffer in the past or are not (generally) suffering in any part of the world other than the West. You and I live in the West, and what affects our lives is what is imminent to us. So stay on topic, please!

Statistics can be quite misleading if not interpretted carefully. Mamaof3 answered your concerns about blacks quite well. Let me just add that, it's the protective shelter given by biased laws and social ideals that we're talking about here. Unfortunately I will be labelled a racist as well for saying this, but If a particular community (racial/religious) fails to progress despite the presence of protective laws and increased opportunities, most of the blame has to be shared by that community itself. What happened to blacks and women in the past was very unfortunate. It should've never happened, and I have zero tolerance for the ones who committed such crimes in the history. However, that does not mean that ".. because your grandfather abused my grandfather, I can abuse you".

Let's talk about statistics again. I think most of the hardest and dirtiest jobs are still being held be men, and I would take a secretarial job any day than working in a coal mine all day long. Women have a skewed representation in secretarial jobs, but would they trade those jobs with physically demanding field jobs? I bet not. For managerial positions, most employers offer performance based compensation and as Mamaof3 explained, she was making more money than most of her male colleagues for the same type of work. Among the Ph.Ds awarded in 2001, for example, in education 65% of the doctorates went to women; in the social sciences, 54%; in the life sciences, 47%; in the physical sciences, 26%; in engineering, 17% ** (Harvard University's Mind/Brain/Behavior Initiative -- probably available online) **. Women generally outperform men in nonscience disciplines, and thus their representation such areas is usually higher. Additionally, they are given preference at technical jobs or academic programs, which is the protective shelter I referred to earlier. Men, however, do not have that luxury in the fields where women are overrepresented.

This is not a men vs women debate or to prove who is better of the two genders. This is a debate on morality, as to who is being treated unfairly or not. Women are better disciplined than men, they are more organized and consistently achieve higher grades, but the variance in their achievements is not huge. Men's performance on standardized tests and college exams, however, is highly skewed, representing both tails of the graph. They are also known to take more intellectual risks, which is also a reason they represent the top management more so than women. However, if you want to focus only on that, you would be deliberately ignoring the fact that they probably deserved that, and also that men hold the lowest strata of the jobs much more so than women.

Mamaof 3: I am not white so I cannot relate to your experience but I do know what you are saying when you say blacks have an attitude problem. I beg to differ on how at fault they are though. Although I agree that your attitude is in your control and that black people have terrible role models but it is a result of the petit apartheid they were subject to after slavery was abolished. Many people see it as "oh slavery was abolished years ago...why u still pissed?" but it takes very long for something to be enforced from paper to real life. History is evident to the fact that powerful role models for blacks were often killed or assassinated (e.g. Malcolm X). The first black gang was an alliance in reply to the discrmination blacks faced after being freed as slaves. Although they were freed in concept, they were not free to move out of certain neighborhoods. These first gangs however were nothing like the gangs of today...they were community workers....the people loved them...they worked to make their community better....If you read about the black panthers...they were one such gang and when they began to gain political power, they were destroyed by the FBI.

With most role models killed or assassinated, black youth lost direction and goals....now the gangs that were formed had no idea of what they wanted to accomplish....confined to one area and weilding guns...they turned on each other...this is the distorted view of gangs (enforced by the media) that most black kids look up to today.

To answer why us desis do better than blacks, well this has to do with social and human capital. Many black men will have a criminal record. Many know someone with a criminal record...the people u know make up your social network. Who you network with determines where you end up in life. Desis come to the US for a better future....so the desis we meet here will most likely have the same mindset. Dont forget it also takes a certain level of social and human capital to be able to move out of our countries and to america in the first place (takes a certain level of intellect, values, money, family, ties etc).
As I mentioned before....most black youth are in prison. they make like 74% of the prison population when they make up about 12% of america's population. Is that CRAZY or what? I hardly think it shows they are treated preferentially first of all. second, it is a result of several terrible policing strategies that were applied in the past as I said....intentional or not...but hardly shows they are being treated preferentially is my point. Anyways...a black man gets out of prison....who will give him a job with a criminal record? Who will he go back to when he is hungry? Committing crimes u bet!

Finally, why do they continue to do drugs, go to prison despite so many programs for them...this is because many state programs and policies that are intended to help blacks progress FAIL miserably. If you read research done on most policies and programs you'll see the results show they have no effect on the objective they intend to accomplish. (D.A.R.E. is one school program targetted to high school kids doing drugs...FAILURE....but continues to be funded because its such a feel-good program).

We as desis especially have this view of blacks...."oh they bring it upon themselves" but I dont think we are right in making these conclusion because you have to understand their unique backgrounds and history. (Sorry for going so off topic!)

so we're just focusing on the US. again...do you agree that women do not make similar salaries to men on average?

I answered in my previous post why the black situation is so unique and why desis cannot compare themselves to blacks and why so many policies suck when it comes to helping blacks.

Of course not. But we would certainly trade in our secretarial jobs for a managerial one! what sort of a question is this? I could bring up the fact that most women pull the double shift of working at home plus working at the office.

Initiator, I am not having a men v women debate with you at all...I dont think anywhere in my posts I implied one gender is better than another either. I even acknowledged that a preferential treatment exists. However, the only difference is that I think this treatment is justified in light of the fact that women do not still make as much as men on average, to encourage more women to work and to an extent as an "I owe u" for how they were treated in the past. Also, the need for more women managers is due to do away with the whole "bounded rationality" many men ascribe to women. You pointed out this is biased, I said the bias must continue till there is a "real" balance.

Re: The Systematic Degradation of Men's Rights (MEN)

Everyday on the train i see women standing up while i occupy a seat. I want to vacate the seat for them but i'm afraid of being branded a chauvinist, which really shouldn't matter since i dont know anybody on the train and nobody knows me.

But the real reason i don't vacate a seat anymore is that once i did and the woman i meant to vacate it for didn't bother sitting and instead another guy took the seat (WTF!)

Anyhoo, unrelated.

Zabardast and I agree with Decent totally.

Why a incopetant lady will be given chance over a competant man?

Re: The Systematic Degradation of Men's Rights (MEN)

Das Reich hasn't posted in this thread? I heard he really got the shaft when he got divorced.