The Sufi Dance

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Well said!

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"Apparently mockery of a practice is totally okay as long as it's unorthodox and goes against one's own beliefs. "I'm not making a mockery out of sufis, just what they practice" is like i'm not making fun of you as a muslim, i'm just making fun of your religious beliefs."

Wise words

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not sure but as soon as I saw the thread title a song came to mind

S-s-s-s
U-u-u-u
F-f-f-f
I-i-i-i-
Sufi, dance!

We can dance if we want to
We can leave your friends behind
'Cause your friends don't dance and if they don't dance
Well they're no friends of mine
I say, we can go where we want to
A place where they will never find
And we can act like we come from out of this world
Leave the real one far behind
And we can dance

We can go when we want to
The night is young and so am I
And we can dress real neat from our hats to our feet
And surprise 'em with the victory cry
Say, we can act if want to
If we don't nobody will
And you can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile

I say, we can dance, we can dance
Everything out of control
We can dance, we can dance
We're doing it from wall to wall
We can dance, we can dance
Everybody look at your hands
We can dance, we can dance
Everybody takin' the cha-a-a-ance

Sufi dance
Is it safe to dance
Is it safe to dance

S-s-s-s
U-u-u-u
F-f-f-f
I-i-i-i-
Sufi, dance!

We can dance if we want to
We've got all your life and mine
As long as we abuse it, never gonna lose it
Everything'll work out right
I say, we can dance if we want to
We can leave your friends behind
'Cause your friends don't dance and if they don't dance
Well they're no friends of mine

Is it safe to dance, oh is it safe to dance

PS: Sama is not dance :)

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There are certain terms and conditions which apply on the act known as Sama - Even there are groups among sufis - who dont consider it as an allowed practice for a common man - you need to attain a level before you engage you self in Sama ...

If you need more clarification on this - Read Hazrat Ali Hajveri ( DaaTa Ganjbaksh) 's book - Kaashaf-ul-majoob ...

what ever happen at most of Urs ceremonies and shrines is clearly not a recognized form of SAMA ... and as X2 mentioned SAMA is not a dance ...

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Its just looking things from different perspectives. While Orthodox views supporters stick to mainly the five pillars of Islam, Sufis neither disapproved these things nor they made them restricted to only these things. They believed when Mahboob (loved one- Allah) is la mehdood (having no limits), then expressing love for Him also doesn't have any boundaries. Because When you love someone you don't have ikhtiyar (control) on yourself.

As Baba Fareed said: Sanoo Lag gai be ikhtiyari

There is also a famous incident related to Qais (Majnoo) when wandering for Laila, he passed infront of a Mullah who was offering prayer, that Mullah got angry and said to Majnoo that 'can't you see, I was worshiping and you deviated me by passing in front of me'. Majnoo relied, ' In love for a human I don't know where I'm and you lost your attention from your mehboob (God) just because a person passed in front of you'.

This Be Ikhtiari (denouncing worldly things in love of God) is the main theme behind Sufism and expressed in different forms (including Sama), poetry, etc.

On one side Baba Bullay Shah says:

Tere ishq nachaya kar thayya thayya

On other side Shah Abdul Lateef Bhittai says:

Tere ishq main jo bhi doob gaya ussay dunia ki lehron se darna kia.

These were the sufi saints who promoted Islam through their tolerant views in Indo-Pak and other parts of world. They taught tolerance and humanity which is above all the religion or in other words which is / should be the topic of every religion of the world.

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What a lovely post. Especially loved the last paragraph. The various episodes are weved into each other so nicely - may I say Subhan Allah!

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Very nicely written out muqaweel brother. I see where you're coming from. Still I'm not sure I want to agree but I don't have to, right.. The no limits part is where I have my issues. But we will leave it at that.

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"As Baba Fareed said: Sanoo Lag gai be ikhtiyari"
Punjabi (?) what does this mean?

On one side Baba Bullay Shah says:
Tere ishq nachaya kar thayya thayya
Does this mean - Your (God's) love makes people dance?

On other side Shah Abdul Lateef Bhittai says:
Tere ishq main jo bhi doob gaya ussay dunia ki lehron se darna kia.
I get this. Why did you say other side? Arent both kind of saying the same thing?

Talking about Baba Bullay Shah - is this the same person after which this famous 70s song from Bobby was made?

"Beshak Mandir Masjid ...
Bullay Shah ray kehtha
Par pyaar bhara dil kabhie na thodo

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The complete lines from Baba Bullay Shah are:

Yaar Daadi ishq Aatish lai hai,
Sanoo Lag gai be ikhtiyari,
seene de vich naa samai hai.

O friend, this love has ignited such a strong fire within me!
O friend, I have lost all control
And my chest simply can’t bear this fire.

You can listen, read lyrics and translation of this on following link:

You can interprate it like when you [being faani (destined to death ) & mehddod (limited / restricted one)] love God (who was, who is and who will always be there beyond limits) then you don’t know how to express it and this sense makes you express your love in different ways including dance (not the Nargis / Madhoori one)

here is the link for complete translation of Baba Bullay Shah’s ‘tere ishq nachaya’

These are two different and complimenting parts of the same thing.

One says ’ Tere Ishq nachaya kar thayya thayya’ i.e. in your love I lost control on myself and it made dance.

The other says ’ tere ishq main jo bhi doob gaya usse dunia ki lehron se darna kia’ means when one loves God, he doesn’t need to afraid of wordly matters.

So in God’s love when you ignore your ego it frees you from all fears.

Yes he is the same Bullay Shah. He is the same who wrote ’ Bulla ki jana main kon’ sung by Rabi Shergill in India and Junoon Group in Pakistan. You must listen to Abida Parveen singing Bullay Shah. I’m sure you will love it.

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Just add, the take of Hazrat Sultan Baahu:

**IMAN SALAMAT HAR KOI MANGDA ISHQ SALAMAT KOI HOO
JIS MANZIL NU ISHQ PUHNCHAVE IMAN NO KHABR NA HOWE ... HOO **

So they are all basically the levels and expressions of one's recognition and love for Allah. And ofcourse its Allah's will as who will reach which level.

Tariq Bhai, very repectfully, I understand why would you oppose the whirling practice in Sufis, BECAUSE the Holy Prophet Sal Allah O aleh Wassalam and the righteous Companions didnt do this, that makes sense. Having said that, you cannot really compare it with "dance" especially those sensuous movements we associate with "dance" because if our eye sight works, it is not "dance" by that way. So children, when they usually make circles and go round and round and round, does it look like they are dancing the Nargis Dance? I doubt that really.

The problem is, we ee things how we want to see them, and then they look and sound like the way we label them. When its a sensational figure like Shakira or Nargis or Katrina dance its something else. When children circle its something else and obviously so is with sufis. Lets just say its all about intentions, who are we to judge someone's intentions then, and label them that they are "dancing" and that too comparing them with those vulgar dancers and all that.

The info that Mc Pendo put on Rumi here tells us he was not a sensuous person atleast. A mathematician and all that. How come he started to dance out of nowhere. So there might be reasons and facts our fallible and limited human mind and perception cannot grasp.... Prayers five time and other pillars of Islam, is obligatory on every Muslim, and obviously whoever loves Mohammad Sal Allah o Aleh Wassalam will abide by his Sunnah why not. Then what makes you guess at that these sufis didnt love Mohammad Sal Allah o Aleh Wassalam, maybe even more than you or I. The levels of Iman and Ishq are very very mysterious. Thanks to Allah and then to the beloved Prophet Sal Allah O Aleh Wassalam, atleast the achievement of level of Iman has been made easier for us, by defining the procedure (of these five pillars of Islam), following which, we can protect our Iman. But Ishq is not an easy journey. When Bullhay Shah says, "Nach nach ke yaar manana ey, Bhanway sooli charhna pay jaave", maybe he was refering to some penance, we may not know of. But that MUsT NOT be interpreted as simple as that dance is to please Allah (Aztaghfirullah). To comprehend what Bullhay shah meant by saying that you and I would have to rise up to Bullhay Shah's level, which I am afraid is not possible for us, not really if we are not open to give a fair chance of understanding to the matters of metaphysics.

Nwo why they do this, this whirling practice, if they aint doing it to please Allah, maybe they can answer well. The assumption that they do it to please Allah will really make it sound ridiculous. How and why would I assume this, when I dont do it myself in the very first place, nor do I have first hand knowledge by someone who does this.

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Even Sufism never allowed freedom with no limits (Maadar Pidar Azadi). Our Sufi saints never approved for the things which are indecent or harmful by anyway to humans and societies. They always promoted harmony amongst different faiths and acceptance of their message among people from different sects, religions proves that people / society as a general could relate to them and their teachings.

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^ Thank you, Guruji. I am beginning to learn the art of communication in a non-patronizing and genuinely coridal manner from you.

By the way, Vidura was a character in Mahabharat, who was extremely wise. He was synonimous with wisdom. Hence the title!

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Please people - please for heaven sake - don't insult the poetry- Don't take it on a face value and try to conceive the message conveyed by it ..

Tere Ishq nachaya karkar Taya taya ... doesn't mean ' Your love made me dance in public , plains , fields ' - it literally means / suggests , when you step forward towards Allah and His teachings - in general people / society around you start giving you hard time .. Thus dealing with such encounters make the person feel that he is always on his toes .... One thing ends and another starts ... A state of dance , you may label it as

You all are quoting the first misra of that shair - please take some time out to ponder the next misra which completes this shair .. and it goes like ' Cheyte aaN way Tabiba , ne tu mein mar ga'ee YaN '

now read the complete couplet and see what message bullay shah is trying to deliver here - he said

Tere ishq Nachya karke Thaya Thaya
Cheyte Aan way Tabiba ne tu mein Mar ga'YaaN ...

Translation ( roughly)

The desire of getting your attention has made me whirl
O my doctor ( Lord ) - please come or I will die

He is trying to get his lord 's attention in light of that hadees ( Roughly translation) - which says ' When a momin takes a step toward Allah - His lord comes seventy steps closer to him/her '

Thus in a nutshell - Bhullay shah is trying to say ' despite being surrounded / attacked by the hurdles , which come in the way of your love .. am trying hard to stay on the path , but I am nothing without your help/ consideration - so O my lord please come and rescue me '

Kuch ayaH samj mein looGON ?

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"Just add, the take of Hazrat Sultan Baahu:

**IMAN SALAMAT HAR KOI MANGDA ISHQ SALAMAT KOI HOO
JIS MANZIL NU ISHQ PUHNCHAVE IMAN NO KHABR NA HOWE ... HOO **

So they are all basically the levels and expressions of one's recognition and love for Allah. And ofcourse its Allah's will as who will reach which level. "

Thanks Mirage - very nice poem.

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Now if someone may object that reaching the height of Iman has been mentioned over and over in Quran and Ahadith, but there is no mention of Ishq anywhere, well then maybe thats the trickiest part of it. Maybe it was left over to them to read between the lines and rise above and beyond the average us. And even the mention and level of ishq isnt hard to find if you have interpreted Quran and Ahadith comprehensively. So I dont really believe those who have better and scholarly understanding of Islam, and Sufism, would mock this very much legit institution of Islam like we do.

Its all how much we are capable of seeing and understanding, and ofcourse not all of us are made for that.

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Mirage - this Sufi'ism practices are not for a common Joe - where the rules and teachings , we received from Allah's Messenger , Muhammad ( PBUH) are same for all of us Muslim - despite our color , race and nationality ..

Let me quote the words of famous sufi Hazrat Junaid Baghdadi ' Zahir pe fatwa hai ' ... he said the mentioned words while signing the death warrant of another sufi ' Mansoor bi Halaj ... who chanted Aa'Nal HAQ ( I am the HAQ/ Lord ) ..

You cant let such practice / one person's love for ALLAH to create a chaos in society ... Or Associate something new to Islam , which was not done/approved by the final messenger Muhammad ( PBUH)

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What this has taught me is to be a bit more respectful of others' beliefs and where they ae coming from. Discussions centered around religion (or spirituality) need not be about who is more knowledgeable, or even who is more logical. And I can certainly apply that to myself in the way I could have structured some of my questions earlier in this thread.

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This is such a grey area that I wouldnt get into the deeper details. All I know is, islam is more of an encompassing religion where love of Allah is integrally mentioned with love of His Creation. Now Sufism teaches love, tolerance as well as drowning into Allah's love which IMO deviates from the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah about huqooq ul ibaad. Anything extreme isnt encouraged.
Kind of reminds me of Budhha who shunned everything and returned to the jungles for meditation and seeking answers. If Allah had wanted the Holy Prophet SAW to be like him or adapt the Sufi lifestyle, he'd probably have spent the rest of his 20 years inside Cave of Hira, just letting go if everything else and spent time chanting, doing zikr, sema etc.

So am not shunning the entire Sufi school of thought, I am really inspired by Sufis such as Bulleh Shah, Shah walliullah etc IMO certain practices such as Sema represent rather an extreme.

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Well didnt I say something quite similiar to the first portion of your post? I myself believe its not everyone's cup of tea. Not for us commoners atleast, and in the same way, not our part should be to mock it, if not anything else.

I would rather if it had taken place in the Holy Prophet Sal Allah o Aleh Wassalam's period, then obviously we had a clear precedent as how to take it, but since it hasnt, I guess its a sensitive area, and we musnt be jumping ruled by bias, where angels fear to tread.

As far as the bold part concerns, thats your personal opinion and I respect is as much as you hold it.

The sufis dont let such practice or one person's love for Allah create a chaos in a society. Do I have to repeat how Islam spread in the sub continent? Its an old story and we all have heard it, haven't we?