THE STATUS OF THE SUNNAH IN ISLAM

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Asslamu-alaikum,
I am starting this thread in response to certain people questioning the status and application of the Sunnah, like faceup/logical when he stated in the thread WHO IS THAT FACEUP BEHIND THE MASK:

Is Quran the word of God or the Sunnah? & If Allah wanted us to COPY exactly the Prophet’s (s)‘way of life’ as practised by him in each & every century for all eternity then, what is the need for the Quran? We can just emulate the Prophet in words & deed and there would be no need for the Quran!<<

Now let’s stop and think. Are we going to let faceup dictate for Allah what He wants from us, or are we going to go directly to the words of Allah and find out what He wants from us.
So let’s find out what Allah wants from us, does He want to us to follow the Messenger(saw) or not?

“Nor does he say of (his own) desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him.”(53:3-4)
So what the prophet(saw) used to say was an “inspiration sent down”

“He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah” (4:80)
So the obedience to Allah is not complete until one also obeys the Messenger(saw).

“So take what the Messenger gives you and refrain from what he prohibits you and fear Allah; for Allah is strict in punisment.”(59:7)
So the modernists(faceup) say that the Qur’an is for eternity. So what are they going to say about this ayah from the Qur’an. Are they going to do away with 90% of the Qur’an and say, it’s not for eternity but these ayahs only applied to the 7th century people. So if this Messenger(saw) is not Muhammad(saw) then I wonder who Allah is ordering us to obey.

“The answer of the believers when summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that he may judge between them, is no other this: They say ‘We hear and we obey’. It is such as these that will prosper.”(24:51)
Yes, once the believers know the commands from Allah and His Messenger(saw), they hurry to carry them out. They do not care whether these commands comply with USA/UN human rights code, they do not care whether so and so will become displeased about it.

The Messenger of Allah(saw) said:“Whoever has obeyed me will enter paradise. Whoever disobeys me has denied me and will not enter paradise.” (Bukhari)

Because of the number of complaints I have read regarding long posts, I have decided to leave it here for now. So these were just a few evidences, showing the obligation to follow the commands of the Messenger(saw). If this is not enough then we can bring many more evidences.Once this topic becomes clear, then we will move on to the actual Shariah laws and where each one is derived from.

BTW, who are all these people that are supposed to change all these laws. Are they for real or do they only exist in your dreams. Let us know, tell us more about them.

Wasallaam.

[This message has been edited by salafi (edited July 12, 2000).]

2

Nice post, these people here come to learn, and THEY PUT ON WHAT THEY THINK IS RIGHT, not what quran and hadith say…so they just confuse things with what THEY THINK.
Or maybe they come here to confuse others with them.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smile.gif

HARooN

HARooN>>>Chorr chori se jaye…haira-pehrii se na jaye<<< :slight_smile:

3

Salafi, Haroon,

So what is the answer? Should muslim follow Quran or Sunnah. Quran is the word of Allah and Sunnah is - how the prophet lived his life. The Sunnis follow the sunnah while wahabis follow the sunnah narrated by Ibn Tammiyyah!

You quote a few ayas from the Quran:
i) "Nor does he say of (his own) desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him."(53:3-4)

ii) "He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah" (4:80)

iii) "So take what the Messenger gives you and refrain from what he prohibits you and fear Allah; for Allah is strict in punisment."(59:7)

Let me ask you this simple question. Do you understand the difference between Quran and Sunnah?

The three ayas are from Allah, not from the Prophet. The Prophet is delivering the message, as in the three ayas above, where Allah is sending down His (Allah's) inspiration and asking the followers to follow what the Prophet delivers i.e Allah's message.

Allah is not asking the muslims, in those ayas, to follow the lifestyle of the Prophet. Allah is asking muslims to follow Allah's message or the Quran.

I 've a feeling from your post that you are mixing the two together, i.e. Sunnah & Quran. They are not same. It is important that one understands this.

In the thread:WHO'S FACEUP BEHIND...?
I stated:

1) The shariat is based mostly on the Sunnah or how the Prophet lived his life in the 7th century.

2) To emphasize my point, I asked you to show me/corroborate where the Sunnah/hadiths of the prophet discussed in the thread:WHO'S FACEUP BEHIND...? are mentioned in the Quran in exactly those words & or way of instructions.

3) Since, Shariat re: Women discussed in the afore mentioned thread, is based on the Sunnah i.e.the 7th century life of the Prophet then, all Shariat REFLECTS the 7th century and will for all eternity.

Remember the saying - Sharia'h is out-dated, obsolete, xenophobic; it is all those because the Sunnah reflects a different time frame or 7th century Arabia with its harsh environment and harsh codes to match.

Finally, you quote a hadith/sunnah of the prophet:
The Messenger of Allah(saw) said :"Whoever has obeyed me will enter paradise. Whoever disobeys me has denied me and will not enter paradise." (Bukhari)

QUESTION:
Let me ask you here: Is the Prophet asking muslims to 'OBEY' his lifestyle (sunnah) or to 'OBEY' what has been delivered as Allah's message in the Quran?

I say, the Prophet (S) is asking us to OBEY Allah's Quran. What do you think?

4

Faceup,
as I said, if it's still not clear then we can bring more evidences. Here's a few more.

Allah says "What the Messenger teaches you, take it, and what he forbids you, avoid doing it" (59:7).
In connection with this verse, I am marvelled by what is corroborated by Ibn Mas'ud (Allah be pleased with him) that is, a woman came to him and told him, "You who says: May Allah's curse be on 'Al-Namisat' and 'Al-Motanamisat' and those who tattoo." He said "Yes." She said, "I read the Book of Allah (Al-Qur'an) from beginning to its end. I did not find what you have said. He told her, "If you have read it, you would have found it. As for your reading what the Messenger teaches you, take it, and what he forbids you, avoid doing it." She said, "Certainly." He said, "I have heard the Messenger of Allah (SAW) say May Allah's Curse be on the Al-Namisat." (Bukhari and Muslim)

So this was the understanding of the companions. And Ibn Mas'ud was amongst the greatest scholars amongst the companions (may Allah be pleased with them). If needed we are ready to bring many more examples like this, and how the companions would adhere strictly to the Sunnah, even after the passing away of the Messenger(saw) and what was their response to those who refused this.

Faceup says >>Let me ask you here: Is the Prophet asking muslims to 'OBEY' his lifestyle (sunnah) or to 'OBEY' what has been delivered as Allah's message in the Quran?<<

My dear brothers & sisters: think to yourself. Are you going to follow the understanding of the companions, about whom Allah said, that "He is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him" and they have already been promised paradise and about whom the Messenger(saw) said "their generation is the best of all generations" or are you going to follow the understanding of faceup and his likes.

and faceup says: >>The Prophet is delivering the message, as in the three ayas above, where Allah is sending down His (Allah's) inspiration and asking the followers to follow what the Prophet delivers i.e Allah's message.<<

OK. We'll take the classical example. The muslims initially used to take Jeruslam, as direction for prayer. However, Allah then ordered them to change this towards Mecca. Below is a part of the verse regarding this.

"And we made the Qibla(prayer direction) which you used to face only to test those who would follow the Messenger, from those who would turn on their heels." (2:143)

So here the ayah is stating that it was Allah who had initially ordered them to face in that direction. So, if the only revelation received was the Qur'an, then we must be able to find that, somewhere in the Qur'an. So the challenge is upon you faceup and your leaders and scholars to find this order in the Qur'an. Since if you don't, then the obvious conclusion is that the Messenger(saw) also received other revelation, apart from the Qur'an, hence "an inspiarion sent down".

Wasalaam.

5

Faceup to Salafi...>>I say, the Prophet (S) is asking us to OBEY Allah's Quran. What do you think?<<

Indeed Allah's Qura~n and Prophet's example. Afterall Prophet's example was nothing less than Qura~n. Did Prophet do anything that was not in conformity with Qura~n?

However, it is to be clearly understood as to what is Sunnah? Is it what his personal lifestyle was or is it what he encouraged people to do, is Sunnah. There is difference in both. Those who follow Prophet's lifestyle, do so because of their keeness to follow Prophet in each and every aspect. They will certainly get rewarded by Allah. Just like when you pray Nafls. You accumulate your recompense, but such worship is not obligatory. Sunnah to me is what the Prophet exhorted others to do. Not necessarily what he personaly choose for himself.

I can cite numerous examples of what I am saying.

6

Bayh/Salafi/etc

If a muslim follows the Sunnah ONLY as a "WAY OF LIFE" then the muslim follows the way of life of the 7th century.

Bayh says:
"Afterall Prophet's example was nothing less than Quran. Did Prophet do anything that was not in conformity with Quran?"

Really, Is Rajm or Stoning in the Quran? Can you show me where?

While you are looking for it can you also cross-reference the following Shariat inequities with the Quran in those words & instructions:

LIST OF WELL-KNOWN INEQUITIES:
1) The worth of a man's life is equal to the market value of 100 camels or 200 cows and that of a woman is equal to half of the man's, 50 camels or 100 cows.

2) The blood money or dieh, a sum paid to the next of kin as compensation for the murder of a relative, is twice as much in the case of a murdered man as in the case of a woman.

3) The number of witnesses required to prove a crime is higher if the witnesses are female or 2 just men. Female’s testimony in a court of law is equal to half of that of a man.

4) In most countries, she can’t vote or get elected to office. Females are banned from studies such as engineering, agriculture, archaeology, restoration of the historic monuments and handicrafts, and many other fields. They are not allowed to become a judge.

5) Women/females inherit only half as much as male siblings.

6) Women cannot get custody of her children. Even if their father dies. In the case of divorce or death she has to surrender her children to their father and/or his family. She cannot claim an alimony.

7) Woman cannot travel, work, go to college, join organizations, even visit her friends and relatives without my father or husband's permission. She must live where her husband desires.

8) A woman can get arrested, beaten, and sometimes even executed if she wear make-up, nylons, bright colors and specifically the color of red. Normally, she cannot choose her mate and is not permitted to divorce him if things did not work out.

9) According to Islamic laws: the most suitable time for a girl to get married is the time when the girl can have her first menstrual period in her husband's house rather than her father's. She has to meet all her husband's desires including the sexual ones. And if she refuses he has the right to deny her food, shelter, and all of life's necessities.

10) A woman’s husband can divorce her without her knowledge and by the Islamic law he is required to support her for only 100 days. And if he dies, she is entitled to 1/8 of his Estate. A husband is not required to provide her with alimony.

11) A woman can only ask for divorce if her husband is impotent, if he does not have sex with her at least one night in every forty nights, and if he refuses to provide her with a minimum standard of living.

12) Her husband can have four permanent wives and if he is from Shi'i sect, he can have as many temporary wives as he wants.

13) In Islam, the age of majority for a girl is 9 years and for a boy is 15 years. This means that a 9 year old girl and a 15 year old boy are considered to have the same level of maturity. Now, if girls reach maturity six years earlier than boys, then why did God place men in charge of women? Was there something wrong with God's Judgment?

14) In Islam, if a 6 or 7 year old girl is raped by an adult man, she will be the one that gets punished. It is her fault because she provoked it. The parents then will burn or kill her because she has dishonored the family.

7

faceup says: >>If a muslim follows the Sunnah ONLY as a "WAY OF LIFE" then the muslim follows the way of life of the 7th century.<<

As we have already proven above from the Quran, Hadith, and specifically the narration of ibn Masud, we follow both the Qur'an and the Sunnah and not ONLY sunnah. Secondly, a believer in Allah does not care whether he is following the life of 1st century or that of the 5th century or the 7th century or 50th century, rather all he is concerned with is following the commands of Allah and His Messenger, whatever time frame it may be.

The only thing your 7th/20th century theory leads to is that the authority in the 7th century was of Allah and His Messenger and in the 20th century it is that of the UN/USA human rights code.

You skipped over the examples given in my second post that of ibn Masud and concerning the direction of prayer and simply went back to listing the laws of Shariah, and claiming that find these laws in the Qur'an. That's exactly what we are trying to prove here. You can't just dispense of the Sunnah by saying it's 20th century. The examples given above clearly contradict this. InshaAllah, soon I'll compile together more evidences.

8

Salafi,

When you say: "As we have already proven above from the Quran, Hadith, and specifically the narration of ibn Masud, we follow both the Qur'an and the Sunnah and not ONLY sunnah."

Really? You've not proven anything; you merely quote verses without being focused.

Is Rajm in Quran? Rajm or Stoning was a Sunnah and has been adopted by both Orthodox sunni & shias. In other words, Sunnah was made superior to the Quran.

DIRECTION OF PRAYERS:
I am not sure what you're saying re: Direction of Prayer? Are you saying that Allah commands us, in the Quran, to face Mecca when praying?

I would REJECT this and say again that this was a Sunnah or practise of the Prophet that became etched in stone, AGAIN OVER THE QURAN.

You confuse me when you say: "The muslims initially used to take Jeruslam, as direction for prayer. However, Allah then ordered them to change this towards Mecca. Below is a part of the verse regarding this."

Sounds like you are saying Allah made a mistake when He chose Jerusalem first and then changed it to Mecca. Did Allah make a mistake?

SALA'AT:
Can you show me - where in Quran does it say that Allah asked to pray 5 times or it is the Sunnah again OVER THE QURAN?

SHARIAT INEQUITIES RE: WOMEN.
The list was produced to EMPHASIZE that the inequities that ummah has forced on women is DUE to the 7th century attitude towards women as exemplified in the Sunnah. In other words - the Sunnah was used AGAIN OVER THE QURAN!

9

faceup,

at the moment i'm at work and busy, so for now i'll expose the real meaning of your satements.

In other words, Sunnah was made superior to the Quran<<
What is sunnah? the commands of the Messenger(saw). This is an accusation against the Messenger(saw) of making his commands above that of the Qur'an

I am not sure what you're saying re: Direction of Prayer? Are you saying that Allah commands us, in the Quran, to face Mecca when praying? <<

I'll state the ayah again. ""And we made the Qibla(prayer direction) which you used to face only to test those who would follow the Messenger, from those who would turn on their heels."
Allah Himself is saying "we made the Qibla(prayer direction)". So Allah was the one who ordered the muslims to face that direction. "which you used to face". This is in the past tense, meaning that the muslims were facing a different direction before and they are facing a different directio. No Allah did not make a mistake, for He does what he like. He can change the Qibla a thousand times if He wishes. So, Allah Himself is saying in the ayah that He changed the Qiblah. So who are you accusing of making a mistake.

Can you show me - where in Quran does it say that Allah asked to pray 5 times or it is the Sunnah again OVER THE QURAN?<<

This is the most absurd statement I have ever heard. You saying a muslim doesn't have to pray 5 times a day. How many times do you pray. How do you make your salaah. Where do you get the rulings from.

running out of time, laterz

10

Salafi,

May I ask that you refrain from making comments like:
1) "so for now i'll expose the real meaning of your satements."
Or,
2) "This is an accusation against the Messenger(saw) of making his commands above that of the Qur'an"

The above is not a response to questions posed to you and others.

NOTE: I have stated categorically that the Sharia'h laws are based on the Sunnah (acts of the prophet) of the 7th century and have provided you facts to back my statements.

Have you been able to prove me wrong other than to make statements like #1 & #2 that is referred above.

AGAIN:
i) Please prove:RAJM or Stoning is in the Quran. It exists in the Sunnah from where it found its way to the Shariat.

ii) Please prove that the Shariat Inequities re:Women that I listed EXISTS in the Quran in those words & instruction. I am on the record as saying that those inequities in the Shariat are from the Sunnah and not Quran.

iii) Please prove that Allah asks muslims to face MECCA while praying? Note, the word here is Mecca. Show me the verse where it says 'Mecca' ? You say:' Allah can change qiblah a thousand times'. Really, why do you think qiblah refers to mecca when before it was jerusalem?

iv) RE: Sala'at. Again praying 5 times is a Sunnah of the Prophet and NOTcommand of Allah. Pls prove where in the Quran it says 'afternoon prayers'.

Stay focused! Consult your scholars and whoever and answer appropriately.

11

faceup,

actually the laws of Shariah are based upon BOTH the Qur'an and Sunnah. Neither do we say that every single Shariah law that you have have quoted can be found directly in the Qur'an. But what we are saying is you can't dispense of the Sunnah just like that. Why does Allah command us to follow the Messenger(saw) again and again. Are you following the Messenger(saw). No you reject his Sunnah and want to follow the interpretation of so and so.

Try refuting this proof: The Messenger of Allah said:
"Honesty has come down from heaven and entered the hearts of the people and Quran also has been revealed from heaven and people have read and understood it by means of Sunnah." (Bukhari)
Yes, the Qur'an is understood by the Sunnah of the Messenger(saw).

And this next hadith is talking about likes of you faceup SPECIFICALLY: The Messenger of Allah said:
"People! Remember! There is another thing like the Qur'an which is given to me by Allah. Beware! A time will come when a bellyful(proud person) will be sitting resting on the cushion and saying: People for you Qur'an is sufficient, whatever is permitted in it is permitted only and what is prohibited is prohibited only, although whatever the Messenger of Allah has prohibited just as if Allah has declared it to be forbidden." (Abu Dawood, Vol. 3, No. 4587)
And who had given this authority to the Messenger(saw). Allah, of course.

12

Quran cannot be understood w/o sunnah ...which is the guide book to Quran...
in addition many of Quranic ayah or even ahadees told out of context will infer a different meaning than intended...it is indeed true for any book/speech/talk etc... but Quran and sunnah have been misquoted or quoted out of refernce many time by ppl (including muslims) to get their own worldly gains....
So Quran cannot be comprehended w/o commentaries by ulema...who use sunnah & hadith and riwayah to write these commentaries...

NOw for the last word: One cannot judge something of which he doe not know enough....
would you let a software expert ( he may the best in the world) operate on your prostrate gland....???
why not.....
would u let a surgeon ( he may be the best ) defend you in the court....?

[This message has been edited by pukka desi (edited July 13, 2000).]

13

Pukka Desi, Salafi

Good discussion!

When you say: " but Quran and sunnah have been misquoted or quoted out of refernce many time by ppl (including muslims) to get their own worldly gains...."

Sure,the biggest ABUSE are the Sunnah and the Sharia'h laws that were written by men; just take a look at the Inequity list that I mention above re: sharia'h laws for women - that is clearly an abuse. Also, it is a well-documented fact that great percentage of the hadiths/sunnah are fabrications or made up by people to justify their positions - major abuse.

Moving along, pls allow me to say the following:

The Ahl as Sunnah Jammat by using Sunnah to understand & interpret the Quran have, in fact, made Sunnah 'the sole book of interpretation' for the Quran. Or, Sunnah is the Quran and Quran is the Sunnah!

For example, we come across the verse [2.142] in the Quran where it says: To Allah belongs the East & West; so, to seek its interpretation, we resort to the Sunnah and come up with the conclusion that the Qiblah means Mecca because our Prophet faced Mecca when praying. This verse, by the way, clearly indicates that Allah is everywhere, East & West. But because we chose to rely on the Sunnah, the qiblah became Mecca.

Another thing to remember is: the Sunnah narrates the actions & sayings of our Prophet (s) that happened in the 7th century and under a very harsh environment. If we rely on the Sunnah to understand & interpret the Quran then our understanding will be of the 7th century and all our interpretations will reflect the 7th century - for all eternity.

14

Posted by faceup

The Ahl as Sunnah Jammat by using Sunnah to understand & interpret the Quran have, in fact, made Sunnah 'the sole book of
interpretation' for the Quran. Or, Sunnah is the Quran and Quran is the Sunnah!

For example, we come across the verse [2.142] in the Quran where it says: To Allah belongs the East & West; so, to seek its
interpretation, we resort to the Sunnah and come up with the conclusion that the Qiblah means Mecca because our Prophet faced Mecca when praying. This verse, by the way, clearly indicates that Allah is everywhere, East & West. But because we chose to rely on the Sunnah, the qiblah became Mecca.

Answer is in the very next two verses of 2.142

[2.143] Thus, have We made of you an Ummah justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (from the Faith). Indeed it was (a change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.

[2.144] We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The People of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.

Satisfied?

15

hey faceup,
I hope the ayahs mansoor have stated answers your question regarding Qibla. The actual arabic word used is Al-Masjid Al-Haram (the Sacred Mosque). Know where that is (Mecca of course). It seems as though you are back to your old tactics. Again you skipped over the above mentioned narrations.

Allah says "What the Messenger teaches you, take it, and what he forbids you, avoid doing it" (59:7).
In connection with this verse, I am marvelled by what is corroborated by Ibn Mas'ud (Allah be pleased with him) that is, a woman came to him and told him, "You who says: May Allah's curse be on 'Al-Namisat' and 'Al-Motanamisat' and those who tattoo." He said "Yes." She said, "I read the Book of Allah (Al-Qur'an) from beginning to its end. I did not find what you have said. He told her, "If you have read it, you would have found it. As for your reading what the Messenger teaches you, take it, and what he forbids you, avoid doing it." She said, "Certainly." He said, "I have heard the Messenger of Allah (SAW) say May Allah's Curse be on the Al-Namisat." (Bukhari and Muslim)

The Messenger of Allah said:
"Honesty has come down from heaven and entered the hearts of the people and Quran also has been revealed from heaven and people have read and understood it by means of Sunnah." (Bukhari)

And this next hadith is talking about likes of you faceup SPECIFICALLY: The Messenger of Allah said:
"People! Remember! There is another thing like the Qur'an which is given to me by Allah. Beware! A time will come when a bellyful(proud person) will be sitting resting on the cushion and saying: People for you Qur'an is sufficient, whatever is permitted in it is permitted only and what is prohibited is prohibited only, although whatever the Messenger of Allah has prohibited just as if Allah has declared it to be forbidden." (Abu Dawood, Vol. 3, No. 4587)
And who had given this authority to the Messenger(saw). Allah, of course.

YOU HAVE NO ANSWER FOR THESE?

BTW: the 5 times a day prayer you mentioned being only a sunnah, only further proves the level of your ignorance. Remember the Journey of AL-Isra wal Mirage, when the Prophet(saw) was taken through the heavens to the presence of Allah. That's when Allah Himself made the prayer obligatory.
This hadith is in Bukhari. Insha'Allah, soon we will answer this in more detail. In the 1400 years that have passed by since the proclaimation of Islaam, and all the deviant sects that have raised their ugly head in Islaam, none of them have deviated as far as you have. No one has claimed that prayer is not 5 times a day or is not obligatory. For you are unique in this, the one and only.

16

Mansoor/Salafi/etc

Guys,
If you believe that Allah exists in Mecca only then surely that is a reflection of the 7th century mentality. The ummah just followed the Prophet as a means of following the Quran.

First Qiblah was Jerusalem..:
For 2 years after Hijra the Qiblah was Jerusalem. It(qiblah) was then changed to Mecca not because Allah moved his residence there BUT to emphasize 'muslim unity'. The reference of Mecca as qiblah is Symbolic only. Allah exists everywhere, here's the verse:

[al-Baqarah 2:142] "The foolish of the people will say: What hath turned them from the qiblah which they formerly observed ? Say: Unto Allah belong the East and the West. He guideth whom He will unto a straight path."

Note: "Unto Allah belong the East and the West." Not just Mecca.

Here's the holy absurdity of your arguements:
QUESTION?
How will you face Mecca from Space, let's say from billions of miles away and from a different galaxy?

That's is why I say: Following Sunnah is following 7th century for all eternity. It(Sunnah) only had answer for the 7th century. If you want answer to the present century then look to Quran.

Salafi: There is nothing in the Quran that says muslims have to pray 5 times; it just says morning & evening prayers. The Quran doesn't even say that the Prayers/Salaat have to be exactly the same as Prophet did. Again, these are all Sunnahs!

If you're going to quote from Ibn Masood, Bukhari, Muslim , etc - you'll be stuck in the same paralysis forever. They are narrating from the Sunnah because they have made sunnah EQUAL to the Quran!

17

faceup,

the questions you have raised regarding the sunnah will be answered soon and your disbelief exposed, Insha'Allah. Since you claim to believe in the Qur'an and say it's for eternity, then we have a little test for you. Below i've quoted some ayah's which you would call in-equities. Let's see if you can suppress your whims & desires and accept them, or are you going to utter disbelief and reject them. THE CHOICE IS YOURS?

TWO WOMEN WITNESS IN PLACE OF ONE MAN

"...But if the debtor is of poor understanding, or weak, or is unable himself to dictate, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her...." (2:282)

INHERITANCE, MALE HAS TWICE AS MUCH AS FEMALE

"Allâh commands you as regards your children's (inheritance); to the male, a portion equal to that of two females; if (there are) only daughters, two or more, their share is two thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is half. For parents, a sixth share of inheritance to each if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased left brothers or (sisters), the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases is) after the payment of legacies he may have bequeathed or debts. (4:11)

AS I SAID THE CHOICE IS YOURS.

18

Salafi,

Islam must based on "REASON"! For followers of Sunnah, they have no choice. They have to base their practise of the religion 100% on the 7th century practise of the prophet(saw) or his Sunnah.

Here, take a look at the verse that you quote:[2:282] "But if the debtor is of poor understanding, or weak, or is unable himself to dictate..."

Notice anything? Do you Notice the word "if". The whole verse is based on the word "if".

So, if the debtor is NOT of poor understanding or weak, then does this verse apply in its literal sense? According to principle of Reason, the answer is No! According to Sunnah - Yes!

Similarly, everything in holy text is based on interpretations. The Quran is subject to interpretations according to talim & tawil not just based on its exterior language linked to Sunnah.

Similarly, what are the interpretations surrounding the qiblah and salaat that I mentioned above? Your interpretations would not be based on 'Reason', Talim or Tawil; rather, on the 7th century practise of the prophet(saw). That is why the followers of Ahl as Sunnah are called the Followers of Sunnah!

19

hi faceup,

looks as though it's not very easy to get out of this one, huh. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

the "if" is referring to the debtor, i.e. if he is unable to dictate, for what ever reason then let a guardian of his do it. My point has nothing to do with, but rather the next bit

"And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women"

you see! in this case the witness of two women is equal to that of one man, to whatsoever situation the ayah is referring to.

LET'S SEE YOUR REASONING HERE.

Oh, I suppose you just happen to miss the next ayah with regards to Inheritance. That's okay, cause I don't mind reminding you.

20

this seems like a dialogue b/w salafi and faceup only