One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
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*Originally posted by Ums: *
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
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Sometimes they kill Americans, and when they can't find americans, they kill shias. I know which I side I'm on. The side that doesn't believe in deliberately killing innocents to send a religious-political message.
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*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
Americans will stop interfering in muslim lands, when muslims will stop killing or threating to kill americans.
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Prove that the Americans started interfering in Muslim lands after muslims started "threatening to kill americans".
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*Originally posted by fantoosh: *
Islam is against terrorism. Muslims adopting terror activities for the sake of Islam, in fact, insult Islam.
Am I wrong?
A Muslim insulting Islam is directly provoking Law of Blasphemy.
What a tragedy that after any terror acts most Muslims gets busy in finding excuses! (It is an indirect support to terrorism.)
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References from Quran and Hadith to support your views in addition to what you consider terrorism is, and what are the terror activities that Muslims are adopting for the sake of Islam, will be highly appreciated.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fantoosh: *
Islam is against terrorism. Muslims adopting terror activities for the sake of Islam, in fact, insult Islam.
Am I wrong?
A Muslim insulting Islam is directly provoking Law of Blasphemy.
What a tragedy that after any terror acts most Muslims gets busy in finding excuses! (It is an indirect support to terrorism.)
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what do you mean by excuses, if you mean statements like .. it was deserved, or it was brought onto itself by US thats a different thing.
but when someone asks and I state exactly what you stated in yuour first sentence, thats not an excuse and that is a proclamation of what I think. thats not making excuses that is expressing one's opinion about others twisting one's faith to suit their own idiotic ideas.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
Sometimes they kill Americans, and when they can't find americans, they kill shias.
[/QUOTE]
even in Iran? ;) or is the situation reversed there. btw if i recall correctly their were tons of terrorist shia outfits around too, and are around. its not some sunni monopoly on extremists. Iran is a great example of shia extremism.
anyways, us whirrling derveshes have no need to engage in violence.
A strange game is going on. After every terror action, most of the Muslim world shouts unanimously that Islam is against terrorism. This shouting is mostly not for Muslims or for terrorists but for non-Muslims.
No need to tell non-Muslims that yours is a peaceful religion, but issue some Fatwa against terrorists who are insulting Islam by killing innocents on the name of Islam.
And the tragedy is that people like ‘Different’ ask me to prove thru Quran…..What?
That terrorism is an insult to Islam?
I could not expect such non-sense challenge from a Muslim!
No more need to tell what excuses means!
Americans need oil. Fight them politically, economically and by force if you can.
But, why you push religion into politics? Is it not cowardice?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fantoosh: *
A strange game is going on. After every terror action, most of the Muslim world shouts unanimously that Islam is against terrorism. This shouting is mostly not for Muslims or for terrorists but for non-Muslims.
No need to tell non-Muslims that yours is a peaceful religion, but issue some Fatwa against terrorists who are insulting Islam by killing innocents on the name of Islam.
And the tragedy is that people like ‘Different’ ask me to prove thru Quran…..What?
That terrorism is an insult to Islam?
I could not expect such non-sense challenge from a Muslim!
No more need to tell what excuses means!
Americans need oil. Fight them politically, economically and by force if you can.
But, why you push religion into politics? Is it not cowardice?
[/QUOTE]
This is what I asked you to provide references for (from the Quran and Hadith):
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Originally posted by Different: *
References from Quran and Hadith **to support your views* in addition to what you consider terrorism is, and what are the terror activities that Muslims are adopting for the sake of Islam, will be highly appreciated.
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Originally posted by fantoosh: *
**A strange game is going on. After every terror action, most of the Muslim world shouts unanimously that Islam is against terrorism. This shouting is mostly not for Muslims or for terrorists but for non-Muslims.*
Well because i dont need to tell my family that Islam is against terrorism, I dont need to tell terrorists because its not that they have heard before, my statements are there for people to see. If some terrorist is among my group of friends or reads my posts and somehow what I say changes his mind then well and good but i doubt that OBL is reading my msgs :)
No need to tell non-Muslims that yours is a peaceful religion, but issue some Fatwa against terrorists who are insulting Islam by killing innocents on the name of Islam.
1- I can not issue a fatwa. I can denounce these acts, which I do, and i can educate others about how these idiots are making a mockery of religion, but I can not issue a fatwa. Half the clowns who issue fatwas have no authority to do so.
As far as any religious leaders denouncing these actions. There have been many. Just because it barely got covered in news or did not get covered does not mean that this has not taken place. seek and you shall find. Information is not just what you see on news everyday, there is much stuff that does not get covered.
Yes you may hear about some idiot mullah at some mosque ranting and raving extremist views..but do we get some statement that oh btw the rest of the thousands of mosques nothing of that sort was said.
basically what muslims need is better PR tactics. Maybe maurice and charles saatchi can help ;)
There have been more than enough fatwas stating that terrorist acts are not from Islam.
Different is right that nowhere in quran or hadit 'terrorism' is mentioned. I give up........terrorize innocents at Nord-Ost, Moscow or pick up some planes and hit the modern buildings are also not mentioned.
I must agree that terrorism is not an insult to Islam.y
Fraudz, may be you will explain what people like 'different' wants to prove.
You are right that many like you have less approch to terrorists, but after any terror attack many from your folk try to convince rest of the world that there could be a design.
If you can not issue a Fatwa against terrorists, no need to shelter also.
(Now Different will again ask me to show where it is written in Quran or Hadit that Fatwa must be issued against terrorist......and I will have to give up.)
Terrorism 101:
1) If an Israeli soldier bursts into a Muslim's home, rapes his sister, kills his brother father and mother then destroys his home inside a refugee camp, that's fighting for survival, while if a Muslim defends his village using his own existence as a weapon, that's terrorism.
2) For 50 years when the Palestinians begged in refugee camps with nary an action from the world, that's a 'good' Muslim, while the same Muslim standing up for his own independence, that's terrorism...
3) When you drop uranium depleted bunker busters on an already beleaguered nation scorching the Earth forever, putting up 12 years of sanctions killing more than 1 and a half million children and calling it 'acceptable', that's liberation, while a person from the same country hurts you to get his message across, that's terrorism...
4) And more but I don't feel like typing...And in conclusion...
Piyare bacho, the US is a country, that when it finds gold under your house, it will bomb your house on a false pretext killing your parents, you and your future generations to get at it...No Muslim will do that...Muslims may be liars, cheaters or thieves or whatever you want to call them, but, the Muslim never kills in cold blood...Heck, the US is the same country that conducted nuclear experiments on 300 of its own army officers...I wouldn't be surprised if the 9/11 was done by the US itself...And even if it was done by OBL, why not just call it 'collateral damage'...After all, the reason was to send a message.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fantoosh: *
A strange game is going on. After every terror action, most of the Muslim world shouts unanimously that Islam is against terrorism. This shouting is mostly not for Muslims or for terrorists but for non-Muslims.
No need to tell non-Muslims that yours is a peaceful religion, but issue some Fatwa against terrorists who are insulting Islam by killing innocents on the name of Islam.
And the tragedy is that people like ‘Different’ ask me to prove thru Quran…..What?
That terrorism is an insult to Islam?
I could not expect such non-sense challenge from a Muslim!
No more need to tell what excuses means!
Americans need oil. Fight them politically, economically and by force if you can.
But, why you push religion into politics? Is it not cowardice?
[/QUOTE]
Our religion is our strength...It is from there that we have departed that we find ourselves being humiliated everywhere...Our leaders are useless, the Ummah is sleeping or if not sleeping then trying to figure out how to add or subtract from our faith...Politically we can't fight them because the fight has gone way beyond political...We can't fight them because our leaders are bought and paid for by Uncle Sam...By force we can't because Muslims never made any belligerent advances towards that field...We never had a need to...We were happy with our sciences, arts and cultures...There is one thing left...Islam...The force we grew with and the force that will help us once again...And if it's termed 'terror', so be it...The US will never be satisfied unless our sisters go on promiscuos dates and there is alcohol in every Muslim home...(The mod_Muslims have even gone that far)...But in the end it will always be that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter...
And anyways, for more than fifty years Muslims have been asking help from the world in Palestine, Chechnya, Kashmir e.t.c., but nothing was ever done to aid them...If the world's biggest coalition of fores can be assembled on the plains of Arabia in a week, I am sure these problems can be solved...But now, I guess, the mask has dropped...For those who can put 2 and 2 together and are not mod_Muslims...The only language that US understands now is what itself preaches...Violence...All other forms of communications have failed...
This "terrorism" is a word that only came into popular circulation after sept 11th-when it was high jacked by Baby Bush and his ilk. The only evidence to say these people were "Islamic Terrorists" is that Bin Laden declared a Jihad along with several other so-called Islamic leaders. I say so-called because the last time I looked Islam wasn't a constitution and 'Jihad' was a personal struggle. Theres so much ambiguity that nothing clear can be said on the matter. And as far as Americans go-they were hit ONCE really it wasnt even so hard. To put it in playground terms the bully was punched back ONCE. Really, 2000 people died, in the large scale of things it wasn't even earth shattering. The only thing it did shatter was the safe cacoon in which the western world lives. Yes thats right. We are not immortal. I think its time we got over that. And why is it that 2000 dead people made more of an impact that the couple of million that demonstrated against Iraq?
"Terrorism" is a relative term. "Islamic Terrorist" is a term used widely in propaganda by idiots in the west. My friends on their part its a WAR. Either get up to fight back or right some gross wrongs that you did back same 50 odd years back. And if your american-stop watching CNN, its a loada bull.
Subscribe to cable or whatever you have and get a wider perspective, because you know what-I think international sympethy for the American Goverment faded back before Afganstan.
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*Originally posted by Different: *
Prove that the Americans started interfering in Muslim lands after muslims started "threatening to kill americans".
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Hmmm thats a good...........answer/excuse.
And when did all these American problems start?
Perhaps Opec? circa 1973? or therabout? When people in America couldn't buy gas except every other day? Price gouged to the max?
Or was it when Iran took hostages in circa 1974?
Tell me?
When did doing business get caught up with religion? And when did it become America's fault? And when did it become America's responsibility to solve everyone elses problems?
And when did it get popular to call Jihad on Americans? What made Osama Bin Lahden and his croonies decide to murder a couple thousand Americans?
And when did it become exusable to claim that it was only a couple thousand?
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*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *
Hmmm thats a good...........answer/excuse.
And when did all these American problems start?
Perhaps Opec? circa 1973? or therabout? When people in America couldn't buy gas except every other day? Price gouged to the max?
Or was it when Iran took hostages in circa 1974?
Tell me?
When did doing business get caught up with religion? And when did it become America's fault? And when did it become America's responsibility to solve everyone elses problems?
And when did it get popular to call Jihad on Americans? What made Osama Bin Lahden and his croonies decide to murder a couple thousand Americans?
And when did it become exusable to claim that it was only a couple thousand?
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Since gas "Price gouged to the max", possible solution was to KILL the KING of Saudi Arabia?
U tell me...
and then install puppet governments all over the Middle East?
Religion to us is a "way of life", sorry you don't like the idea since it conflicts with your "All American way of Life"!
Your interference in our lands is the root cause of the problem in the Middle East.
Its never been Americas responsibility to take care of other peoples problems, perhaps if it would butt out for once in its over inflated little existance, we could prevent the same crap repeating itself another 50yrs down the line. I think we should also distinguish between the american gov, and the american people and not get personal. Its not a question of you or us, the american goverment does not represent its people. That is, perhaps, part of the problem.
And religion got caught up in business and politics around the same time it became a way of life. Speaking of which, isn't Baby Bush a hardline Christian? As is Tony Blair....
It became popular to call Jihad upon America around the same time the people wanted America to but out....a vicious cycle isn't it?
And American problems started way before 1970s, around the time the genocide of the native americans occoured. 1800s I believe. The American gov. has grown up in a culture of self-superiority and self-righteousness, manifest destiny ring a bell?
The fact that it was a couple of thousand was never an excuse. It was a fact. I was putting it into global context, how many americans cried for the mass genocides that occour in africa? It hurts hardest at home doesn't it?
I hope that enlightens you somewhat
Originally posted by fantoosh: *
**Fraudz, may be you will explain what people like 'different' wants to prove. *
I am not sure, the point is that viewpoints vary due to the whole regional politics associated with this whole can of worms. Unfortunately the focus gets on only one segment and not the majority. That is what I was trying to explain as well.
You are right that many like you have less approch to terrorists, but after any terror attack many from your folk try to convince rest of the world that there could be a design.
and many denounce it quite opnely, and that is a vast majority. of course different fppl have different thinking, but focusing on only ppl with one point of view is not going to help. Look at others too.
If you can not issue a Fatwa against terrorists, no need to shelter also.
who is though? I am not, no one that I know is..are there people who are providing shelter, sure are but why hold others accountable? People should be accountable for their own actions. throwing everyone in one category and then criticizing them is quite counter productive. aside from publically denouncing these idiots and sharing how I think with people what else is expected, for me to pull a rambo on al-kayda? :)
Thanks, Fraudz, for a nice discussion!