The Sharia state and Freedom in Western states [split: Is the video ..]

[Jefferson]

Re: Is the video of girl in swat a tool used by US to invade Pakistan?

[quote]
. look at millions of women there who are raped and tortured sexually
[/quote]
Those who do such things are punished in advanced countries. In contrast, in Islamist utopias (actually dystopias!) such crimes are de facto legal. Why? Because four *male *(equal rights, huh? female testimony means nothing and this is equal rights?!) witnesses are required to convict. Good luck with that. It is not as if rapes occur on GT road in broad view...In basically every other country, even poor non-Islamist nations, the testimony of the woman alleging rape as well as any other woman who saw the act and evidence of any physical damage as well as DNA evidence is used to assess guilt. Funny how "god's law" made no provision for the discovery of DNA evidnece, is it not?

[quote]
even a son doesnt know about his father or mother that who is his father and who is his mother.
[/quote]
That is a myth. It happens but is not as common as people like you claim it is.

[quote]
WOmen get rapped and beaten up everyday, and man like you sit tight justifying it.
[/quote]
Good point. Isn't beating women legal under Sharia? As to rape, of course marital rape is de facto legal because of the ridiculous 4 male witness requirement. In Afghanistan it is about to become de jure legal!

[quote]
Are you out of ur mind or what, rape incidents in U.S is far high than any muslim country, or pakistan
[/quote]
That is a commonly held belief among many conservative Pakistanis but there is no way to prove it because the true level of rape in a nation like Pakistan is unknown. How many women in Pakistan will even bring a rape charge given the obsession with "zina" in Pak and the inevitable "zina" inference charging rape brings?

Haania, I live in the US and look at beautiful women. I have never committed rape. Why is it that in Islamic cultures the blame is always on the woman and not the man who commits the crime? If I, an "apostate" living in the West, can control myself and behave in a civilized manner why can't those pious Muslmanns in nations such as Pakistan? Could it be that the mullah types are sexual degenerates?

[quote]
Islam have given so much to women , but we ppl are so thankless, ppl even dont know that not very long back in west women was treated as property , they had no rights , even they got voting rights recently
[/quote]
You are correct that a long time ago women were treated as property in the West. Guess what? The West evolved and now gives women equal rights. There are still nations in this world who consider women property. Guess which religion all of them adhere to? Is it a coincidence all of these nations such as Saudi Irb are Muslim?

With respect to voting rights, in every advanced country women can now vote. In Saudi Irb women do not have the right to drive a car let alone vote! Kuwait only gave women the right to vote a few years ago.

I criticize Islam (background: my parents are Pakistani Muslim immigrants) often but I will give credit where it is do. Islam did advance the rights of women. Women in 700 had more rights than women did in 600 prior to Islam in Islamic lands. The problem? We are now in 2009. The rest of the world continued to evolve and give women more rights while much of the Islamic world failed to keep pace. In some parts of the Islamic world, such as the Taliban areas and Saudi Arabia, women in 2009 basically have no more rights than they did in 700.

It is often mentioned that Islam advanced the rights of women but the logical corollary to that is that the Islamic world failed to keep the ball rolling. A big part of this is Sharia. How can you advance rights when your laws are forever frozen in the mores of 9th century Arab lands?

Yazdi: great post!

[quote]
You have to interprate Quran according to the present times and I believe it can be done because even Quran gave different instructions to the Prophet according to changing times...
[/quote]
Exactly! It is amusing how self-styled pious Muslims who read the Quran regularly can never grasp this extremely important and fundamental concept. The Quran evolved to changing times. It is idiotic to thing that the laws and regulations of a tiny desert state in the 7th century is to apply forever and to every society.

[quote]
People like me moves to United States because I am a urdu speaking who is not MQM related so I get no favors to get a good job in karachi, I am not Sindhi so PPP cant help me , i am not punjabi so I am not accepted in Lahore? It has nothing to do with Islam
[/quote]
Or does it? Name one country out of the 57 OIC countries that provide equal rights--the rights you fled to a country whose culture you abhor to obtain!

[quote]
so much why call urselves so called muslims, please dont give a bad name to Islam.
[/quote]
So criticizing Islam=giving a bad name to Islam. Suicide bombings, floggings, beheadings, persecution of minorites, etc. do not= giving a bad name to Islam?

[yusufkhan1972]

Re: Is the video of girl in swat a tool used by US to invade Pakistan?

My theory is that of all the religions Islam has the **most fear factor. **If any body speaks against any rusty religious law , he is warned of beheading. All sorts of punishments are available for god fearing men by Mullas. Perhaps this is the fact that once you convert to Islam you have zero option to leave it. All other religions hate Islamists as Islamists think that only they have divine right to live. Irony is that then they call it is a peaceful religion. We can make this wonderful religion a unique one by opening its closed windows. It spreads the message of equality among people with the intensity no other religion has. This idea should be extrapolated to the whole humanity instead of confining it to muslims only. Our great Hazrat saheb was a saviour, a beacon, a greatest messenger for the whole humanity and not for muslims only. This way we would be able to have more acceptablility in entire humanity.

[Slickstar]

Re: Is the video of girl in swat a tool used by US to invade Pakistan?

if you have sex outside marriage you should be executed like an animal. The rise of civilized societies is the result of freedom, but Wahhabism/sharia/Taliban are outside the mortal definition of civilization. People like us are true defenders of humanity.

kthanksbye.

[Slickstar]

Re: Is the video of girl in swat a tool used by US to invade Pakistan?

Those who do such things are punished in advanced countries. In contrast, in Islamist utopias (actually dystopias!) such crimes are de facto legal. Why? Because four *male *(equal rights, huh? female testimony means nothing and this is equal rights?!) witnesses are required to convict. Good luck with that. It is not as if rapes occur on GT road in broad view...In basically every other country, even poor non-Islamist nations, the testimony of the woman alleging rape as well as any other woman who saw the act and evidence of any physical damage as well as DNA evidence is used to assess guilt. Funny how "god's law" made no provision for the discovery of DNA evidnece, is it not?

That is a myth. It happens but is not as common as people like you claim it is.

Good point. Isn't beating women legal under Sharia? As to rape, of course marital rape is de facto legal because of the ridiculous 4 male witness requirement. In Afghanistan it is about to become de jure legal!

That is a commonly held belief among many conservative Pakistanis but there is no way to prove it because the true level of rape in a nation like Pakistan is unknown. How many women in Pakistan will even bring a rape charge given the obsession with "zina" in Pak and the inevitable "zina" inference charging rape brings?

Haania, I live in the US and look at beautiful women. I have never committed rape. Why is it that in Islamic cultures the blame is always on the woman and not the man who commits the crime? If I, an "apostate" living in the West, can control myself and behave in a civilized manner why can't those pious Muslmanns in nations such as Pakistan? Could it be that the mullah types are sexual degenerates?

You are correct that a long time ago women were treated as property in the West. Guess what? The West evolved and now gives women equal rights. There are still nations in this world who consider women property. Guess which religion all of them adhere to? Is it a coincidence all of these nations such as Saudi Irb are Muslim?

With respect to voting rights, in every advanced country women can now vote. In Saudi Irb women do not have the right to drive a car let alone vote! Kuwait only gave women the right to vote a few years ago.

I criticize Islam (background: my parents are Pakistani Muslim immigrants) often but I will give credit where it is do. Islam did advance the rights of women. Women in 700 had more rights than women did in 600 prior to Islam in Islamic lands. The problem? We are now in 2009. The rest of the world continued to evolve and give women more rights while much of the Islamic world failed to keep pace. In some parts of the Islamic world, such as the Taliban areas and Saudi Arabia, women in 2009 basically have no more rights than they did in 700.

It is often mentioned that Islam advanced the rights of women but the logical corollary to that is that the Islamic world failed to keep the ball rolling. A big part of this is Sharia. How can you advance rights when your laws are forever frozen in the mores of 9th century Arab lands?

Yazdi: great post!

Exactly! It is amusing how self-styled pious Muslims who read the Quran regularly can never grasp this extremely important and fundamental concept. The Quran evolved to changing times. It is idiotic to thing that the laws and regulations of a tiny desert state in the 7th century is to apply forever and to every society.

Or does it? Name one country out of the 57 OIC countries that provide equal rights--the rights you fled to a country whose culture you abhor to obtain!

So criticizing Islam=giving a bad name to Islam. Suicide bombings, floggings, beheadings, persecution of minorites, etc. do not= giving a bad name to Islam?

Epic post.
+ 1 X1000000000

I salute you sir.

[Slickstar]

Re: Is the video of girl in swat a tool used by US to invade Pakistan?

**Sharia law/Taliban law had its time and place and had admirable values for its time. (8th century???)

It would now be barbaric and foolish to implement it or even tolerate it.

k?

**

[hanibal]

Re: Is the video of girl in swat a tool used by US to invade Pakistan?

Those who do such things are punished in advanced countries. In contrast, in Islamist utopias (actually dystopias!) such crimes are de facto legal. Why? Because four *male *(equal rights, huh? female testimony means nothing and this is equal rights?!) witnesses are required to convict. Good luck with that. It is not as if rapes occur on GT road in broad view...In basically every other country, even poor non-Islamist nations, the testimony of the woman alleging rape as well as any other woman who saw the act and evidence of any physical damage as well as DNA evidence is used to assess guilt. Funny how "god's law" made no provision for the discovery of DNA evidnece, is it not?

Just for you info... the 4 witnesses are required in the case of Adultery.. and not in the case of Rape.. if anybody who believes in what you say, have serious problems in understanding of Islam.. Rape is considered as a Capital crime, and the accused is subject to death sentence...

Now talking about advance Countries, RAPE is not longer a news, it is now treated as common crime... but it is still a news in countries like Saudi and Pakistan.. ever wonder, what is a NEWS?

That is a myth. It happens but is not as common as people like you claim it is.

I guess it is more common than you think.. i wonder why it is not common in the society where virgins are only in primary school!!!

Good point. Isn't beating women legal under Sharia? As to rape, of course marital rape is de facto legal because of the ridiculous 4 male witness requirement. In Afghanistan it is about to become de jure legal!

Again wrong, a man is allowed to beat a women as a last resort if she have committed a sin and that is also said that, if you hit her, do not hit her on her face... Marital Rape... is something between the husband and wife and if wife decides to take to the court of Law in Pakistan, she gets the divorce... unlike US and other states, where man/women have to provide a solid evidence of adultery or another crime to get a divorce...

That is a commonly held belief among many conservative Pakistanis but there is no way to prove it because the true level of rape in a nation like Pakistan is unknown. How many women in Pakistan will even bring a rape charge given the obsession with "zina" in Pak and the inevitable "zina" inference charging rape brings?

Haania, I live in the US and look at beautiful women. I have never committed rape. Why is it that in Islamic cultures the blame is always on the woman and not the man who commits the crime? If I, an "apostate" living in the West, can control myself and behave in a civilized manner why can't those pious Muslmanns in nations such as Pakistan? Could it be that the mullah types are sexual degenerates?

I wonder why there are fone booths to call the emergency services to help on every 25-50 meter in US-Universities.. i wonder what are the statistics of women being raped on their first date... i wonder what are the statistics of the women being raped when found alone.. please do some research before even making such statement and trying to portray US as the safe-haven for women...

You are correct that a long time ago women were treated as property in the West. Guess what? The West evolved and now gives women equal rights. There are still nations in this world who consider women property. Guess which religion all of them adhere to? Is it a coincidence all of these nations such as Saudi Irb are Muslim?

With respect to voting rights, in every advanced country women can now vote. In Saudi Irb women do not have the right to drive a car let alone vote! Kuwait only gave women the right to vote a few years ago.

I criticize Islam (background: my parents are Pakistani Muslim immigrants) often but I will give credit where it is do. Islam did advance the rights of women. Women in 700 had more rights than women did in 600 prior to Islam in Islamic lands. The problem? We are now in 2009. The rest of the world continued to evolve and give women more rights while much of the Islamic world failed to keep pace. In some parts of the Islamic world, such as the Taliban areas and Saudi Arabia, women in 2009 basically have no more rights than they did in 700.

It is often mentioned that Islam advanced the rights of women but the logical corollary to that is that the Islamic world failed to keep the ball rolling. A big part of this is Sharia. How can you advance rights when your laws are forever frozen in the mores of 9th century Arab lands?

You are so ill-informed, i can no believe it that a man in this age can be that ill-informed at that level...

Women can't have property in Saudi.. u must be joking and if not then must be high on something.. I deal with the investors of Saudi Arabia on daily basis... there are more women with the propery then Man in Saudi..as they inherit this property from their Husband, their Father and Their Son, in some cases from their brothersas well... and this is happening in Islam from 6th century... i think you americans are still evolving and you must study things before makeing comment.

Saudi is not a democracy by any mean, so the voting right is out of question, Kuwait is semi-democratic state, where certain class of people have voting rights or the rights to participate in elections... you need to do great deal of research on these cultures and countries... and top of that, you need to respect the cultures as well... now you being Americans like to see a women naked or minimum in two piece bikni.. here in this part of the world they don't want their women to be like this.. i think this is what bothers you atmost...

[Slickstar]

Re: Is the video of girl in swat a tool used by US to invade Pakistan?

Just for you info... the 4 witnesses are required in the case of Adultery.. and not in the case of Rape.. if anybody who believes in what you say, have serious problems in understanding of Islam.. Rape is considered as a Capital crime, and the accused is subject to death sentence....

The fact that you consider adultry a crime is ludicrous. If you believe in freedom, its irrelevant whether you think sex outside marriage is wrong. If 2 unmarried adults agree to have a sexual relationship in private then that is their business. There is no need for govt's to shove their moral code down everyone's throat.

The continuation of these relationships should be cherished, not scorned. It's ludicrous to say there is any negative impact on society from people having sex in private outside of a defined contractual setting.

On rape, punishment is endorsed, how harsh the punishment is debatable.

Now talking about advance Countries, RAPE is not longer a news, it is now treated as common crime... but it is still a news in countries like Saudi and Pakistan.. ever wonder, what is a NEWS?.

oh yeah, the same country AKA saudi arabia where the victim is lashed 100 times for being raped.
We can probably agree that the female populous of such animalsitic nations are too afraid to speak out. k?

I guess it is more common than you think.. i wonder why it is not common in the society where virgins are only in primary school!!!

why are you against sex?

Again wrong, a man is allowed to beat a women as a last resort if she have committed a sin and that is also said that, if you hit her, do not hit her on her face... Marital Rape... is something between the husband and wife and if wife decides to take to the court of Law in Pakistan, she gets the divorce... unlike US and other states, where man/women have to provide a solid evidence of adultery or another crime to get a divorce....

Or you could not be a moron and recognise that most perpetrators would hit their wives and say "Oh, it didn't really hurt her" thereby evading your pathetic restriction by claiming ignorance.

You are so ill-informed, i can no believe it that a man in this age can be that ill-informed at that level....

dude, seriously, please stop posting. your only reinforcing the notion that you're an illiterate person.

Saudi is not a democracy by any mean, so the voting right is out of question, Kuwait is semi-democratic state, where certain class of people have voting rights or the rights to participate in elections... you need to do great deal of research on these cultures and countries... and top of that, you need to respect the cultures as well... now you being Americans like to see a women naked or minimum in two piece bikni.. here in this part of the world they don't want their women to be like this.. i think this is what bothers you atmost...

yeah respect culture where woman cant drive and if you get raped you get 100 lashes. such a country does not deserve respect.

kthanksbye.

[hanibal]

Re: Is the video of girl in swat a tool used by US to invade Pakistan?

The fact that you consider adultry a crime is ludicrous. If you believe in freedom, its irrelevant whether you think sex outside marriage is wrong. If 2 unmarried adults agree to have a sexual relationship in private then that is their business. There is no need for govt's to shove their moral code down everyone's throat.

The continuation of these relationships should be cherished, not scorned. It's ludicrous to say there is any negative impact on society from people having sex in private outside of a defined contractual setting.

On rape, punishment is endorsed, how harsh the punishment is debatable.

I don't want to be judgmental or personal, but it may be all right for you to have sexual relationship with some body and then i believe you are also willing to give same freedom to your sister and/or daughter.. but I won't have any kind of relationship nor i would like to see my sister or daughter practicing the same.

Humans are giving some sanity... what you have said above applies to animals, no society can flourish with this attitude...

Why are this free men and women are so scared of Commitment and responsiblities????

oh yeah, the same country AKA saudi arabia where the victim is lashed 100 times for being raped. We can probably agree that the female populous of such animalsitic nations are too afraid to speak out. k?

Now even you or your fav. USA cannot say that they have done the justice all the time, laws can be used by some insane persons as well...

why are you against sex?

Because i have some sense left and I am not an animal...!! and i believe in the institution of marriage and Home.. and top of all, i am not driven by my animal instincts...

Or you could not be a moron and recognise that most perpetrators would hit their wives and say "Oh, it didn't really hurt her" thereby evading your pathetic restriction by claiming ignorance.

I mentioned the worst condition where man can hit as per Islam, even this is not recommended, but keeping the human nature in mind, Allah has set a parameter to limit it... but short-sighted and guys who like to make things go there way, surely interpretate that according their likes and dislikes, thats why Allah said in Quran, ( interpretation) do not make joke out of my orders!!! but people controlled by animal instincts surely will do that...

dude, seriously, please stop.

Yes i may have to, as its more than you ability to handle reality and truth...

yeah respect culture where woman cant drive and if you get raped you get 100 lashes. such a country does not deserve respect.

Ok a country killing millions on false intelligence, a coutry who accuse and issue sentence without even a proper ruling and again kills millions, does that kind of country desrve any respect??

[Slickstar]

Re: Is the video of girl in swat a tool used by US to invade Pakistan?

Im not pro America, i dont understand where you got that notion from. Even if i was, how the hell is your last point relevant to what we are discussing?

IM PRO FREEDOM.

F
R
E
E
D
O
M

[hanibal]

Re: Is the video of girl in swat a tool used by US to invade Pakistan?

Im not pro America, i dont understand where you got that notion from. Even if i was, how the hell is your last point relevant to what we are discussing?

IM PRO FREEDOM.

F R E E D O M

I was expecting the same reply...

anyway, freedom for what??? to take / snatch / steal rights of others? kill or molest others.. u see u need to be very specific with the word " Freedom", freedom for you can cause troubles to other... ( i don't know you will understand that part or not, but thats all Islam is about...)

[Slickstar]

Re: Is the video of girl in swat a tool used by US to invade Pakistan?

I was expecting the same reply...

anyway, freedom for what??? to take / snatch / steal rights of others? kill or molest others.. u see u need to be very specific with the word " Freedom", freedom for you can cause troubles to other... ( i don't know you will understand that part or not, but thats all Islam is about...)

read
up
on
classical liberalism
from wiki

[quote]
classical liberalism is a doctrine stressing individual freedom, free markets, and limited government. This includes the importance of human rationality, individual property rights, the protection of civil liberties, individual freedom from restraint, constitutional limitation of government etc etc
[/quote]

[hanibal]

Re: Is the video of girl in swat a tool used by US to invade Pakistan?

^^ So if someone follow the constitutional limits then he is still FREE, thats what u r saying???

[Slickstar]

Re: Is the video of girl in swat a tool used by US to invade Pakistan?

individual freedom > constitution.

Of course, the idea of a truly free society isn't really existent anywhere. In the same way you may suggest sharia law isnt existent anywhere.

We can only make comparisons between the degree of free-ness between nations. eg, the people of Denmark have much more freedoms than ...the people of Saudi arabia.

[ravage]

Re: The Sharia state and Freedom in Western states [split: Is the video ..]

Thread split. I've taken some liberties with the thread title, since it wasnt clear what to characterize whats going on.

Carry on regardless!

[kakaballi]

Re: Is the video of girl in swat a tool used by US to invade Pakistan?

individual freedom > constitution.

Of course, the idea of a truly free society isn't really existent anywhere. In the same way you may suggest sharia law isnt existent anywhere.

We can only make comparisons between the degree of free-ness between nations. eg, the people of Denmark have much more freedoms than ...the people of Saudi arabia.

Do you wear clothes? Or, you have done away with them in pursuit of your FREEDOM? ;)

[Himalaya]

Re: The Sharia state and Freedom in Western states [split: Is the video ..]

Gujranwala is hardly the most "islamic" or "pakistani of the towns in Pakistan. I find it a liberal and western-influenced city.....hardly any of the guys wear shalwar kameez and most are clean-shaved, a significant amount of girls dont bother wearing a headcover and quite a lot wear jeans with a kamiz, lots of dating, lots of western influenced fast food...

an ideal islamic state would be fairer than the so-called islamic law we have in pakistan and afghanistan.......this so-called islamic law is the interpretation of the mullahs or talibs who demand islam...........ITS FAR AWAY FROM REAL ISLAM....

[hanibal]

Re: Is the video of girl in swat a tool used by US to invade Pakistan?

individual freedom > constitution.

Of course, the idea of a truly free society isn't really existent anywhere. In the same way you may suggest sharia law isnt existent anywhere.

We can only make comparisons between the degree of free-ness between nations. eg, the people of Denmark have much more freedoms than ...the people of Saudi arabia.

Ya we have seen that Freedom, anyone can hurt anyone.. and that is called freedom... atleast in Saudi.. no body is allowed to hurt anyone or feelings of any particular community..

So to you a country who allows to dis-respect respectable personalities of other community and Religion is Freedom??? is thats what you freedom is all about????

[sandhu786]

Re: The Sharia state and Freedom in Western states [split: Is the video ..]

Maybe she feels secure b/c there is civilized concept of justice in non-Muslim countries & she would not be flogged in front of whole village by illiterate mullah in the name of religious puritanism.

Brother, don't you think a woman should be punished for heinous crime like Adultery or losing virginity before marriage as per laws of Al-Sunnah or Holy Quran? What is wrong in that? We can not move in a different direction if we keep copying western countries. What was the point of demanding a muslim country in the first place? Quaid wanted Sharia and was shocked to see Pakistan not implementing it after the independence. Similarly, a woman in Hijaab looks better than in mini-skirt.

[sandhu786]

Re: The Sharia state and Freedom in Western states [split: Is the video ..]

No one in this thread is talking about the Hudood ordinance and why it was good for Pakistan :(

[mercenary2k]

Re: The Sharia state and Freedom in Western states [split: Is the video ..]

Are you out of ur mind or what, rape incidents in U.S is far high than any muslim country, or pakistan, I know staring n all is wrong and i also dont feel comfortable but problem is in a so called islamic country we dont live in a islamic way, wmen are giving dawat to men to look at them, wearing small tight clothes and now a new fashion caprii wearing alot of make ups , if women cover properly no one is going to stare u, domestic voielence rates are so up high. I dont know why ppl hate thier roots.

First of all thousands of rapes in Pakistan and other muslim countries go un-reported because the shame it will bring upon the family and the girl fearful for her future because she has become damaged goods.

Women who even wear full hijab get their ass pinched in Pakistan and other muslim countries.

I never let my sister go out along in Pakistan, I will always go with her or send someone I can totally trust to escort her. Not because I want her under suerveillance but because I am fearful for her safety in Pakistan than in any western country.