The sad state of Muslims

We Muslims living in this stage today are in a sad state indeed. We know who and where is our enemy and how it is approaching us. Being well aware of the fact that our enemy is targeting us from all corners, we sit hopelessly waiting for a miracle. On top of all that our generations are becoming like they enemy. Talking, eating, sleeping and living like the enemy and proud of being like the enemy.

Around the world Muslims are being massacred by numbers, whether it is being done in Palestine, Kashmir, Checnya, China, Bosnia or IRAQ, we still look towards our enemy for hope. They starve us we look for their help. If they shoot our children we look for their help. If they burn and demolish our houses we look for their help. If we need independence we look for their help.

We don’t have any of “OUR HELP” but we do have “THEIR HELP”.

So, are we in a sad state or what?


We are the Taleban-Resistance is Futile
Sin: Osama Bin Junior

[This message has been edited by yOuNgBrAt (edited September 08, 2001).]

Yes it is true to a great extent.We,the muslims,are in a sorry state.One of the main reasons for this is that we no longer follow the teachings of Holy Quran and Mohammad(p.b.u.h).There was a time when muslims were the super power of the world.That was because they followed the teachings of Islam.
I personally feel that all muslim should unite.Our disunity is the greatest reason why so many muslims are suffering throughout the world.And,it is about time that we should stop looking to the America and our "western lords" for help.I mean,how stupid of us to seek help from the enemy.


Guzar Ja Aaqal Say aagay Ke Yeh Nur
Chiragh-e-Rah Hai Manzil Nahi Hai

Muslims are in a bad state because they have no courage to revolt against the 7th century disgusting dogmas.

Look who’s talking…

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

Are you talking about your Taliban friends?! Then i agree with you on that.

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“kaisay na karta usko main pyar, uski haseen main sukh thay hazaar, bichar gayay hum dukh ki hay baat”

What happened to the Islamic empire? It was flourishing 200-300 years ago. Does anyone know the reasons for its demise?

Islimic empire, what a joke. Show me one who is really follower of Islam? These guyes can't run country consisting of 4 provinces, do you think they will run an empire? Every day thousand of running from their country legally or illegally, what this shows?

i think we muslims must stop living in past glories and realize the fact there in this modern age we must be practical
there must be a reviview on some of the age old practices .

[quote]
Originally posted by honestali:
Islimic empire, what a joke. Show me one who is really follower of Islam? These guyes can't run country consisting of 4 provinces, do you think they will run an empire? Every day thousand of running from their country legally or illegally, what this shows?
[/quote]

Can you please show me some evidence to supoprt your claim that the Islamic empire was a 'joke?'

Stop talking bullsh*t and making stupid claims without any substance to back up your claims. Grow up and get a life rather than trying to deliberately inflame people with your hollow comments.

The problems with people in this forum is that they cannnot separate religion from politics.

Take the Moghul Empire and the Turkish empire. The rulers called themselves muslims. But they broke practically every rule in the Koran. They all used Islam for their own un-Islamic values.

Today the people and the govt. of Islamic Republic of Pakistan are breaking every rule in the Koran and we have people here still calling it an Islamic country. Then people here say, dont judge islam by the followers of Islam.

Why not just agree that all is fair in war and politics. And please leave Islam out of the wicked wicked ways of politics and war.
Islam is more in danger today because of the un-Islamic ways of the people who call themselves muslims than by any other external group.

Since we all agree that we are in a bad state, and since most of us feel very strongly about this, why not do something about?

Lets get practical. Lets get together, scrifice our careers and go all and all out to achieve our goal. How many of us are willing to do this? None.

So we might not even be discussing this issue.


Poisoned Hearts, Poisoned Minds// Join In Hate
We're Like Machines// Dead, Do Not Create
Sitting Docile// While All around is Rot
We Point Fingers// But Destruction Never Stops

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very nice thoughts/comments!!

We Muslims are really in sad state. We don’t understand the TRUE teachings of Islam. lets ignore arrogant/hate mongers like anand and Rani for a while and discuss our shortcomings.

This is what I responded in other thread as well:

Current Islamic world has deviated from Islamic far far far away from its true teachings. Very small amount of TRUE beleivers are left in this world. Whatever you see around and watch in media is not the EXACT representation of Islam.

Hindus of today have also departed far from the teachings of Hinduism, Sikhs have departed from its teachings, Christians have left their religion LONG TIME ago, Jews and Muslims are the only followers who ‘try’ to stick to their religion but unfortunately they practice on selective basis… they pick and follow what they like/what is easy to follow and leave behind what they find is ‘difficult in todays world’.

The general masses are not following any religion sincerely, completely.

People who have left their religion FAR BEHIND, find it very easy to accept ‘similar’ people (loose followers) of other religion because they ‘have given up’ or ‘can give up’ the ‘opposing ideas’ which they find ‘harsh’. such people make up a community called “Humanitarians” and now are gaining popularity… thus making up a new religion.


We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?

Don't worry. We Shias will take care of everything like we always do.

My opinion is that the sad state of muslims(not of shias, since they will take care of everything like they claim to alway be doing,

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

is because of inherited structure of religion revolving around government. Probably west was able to advance because of separation of Church from State.. Muslims could not do it and left behind in cultural and science. Their sad state will improve only after separating religion from state unlike what is happening in Afghanistan which is trying to incorporate state affairs as part of religion and is advancing fast into medieval times and soon will be reaching the realms of prehistoric period. Other so called muslim states such as Iran and Saudi Arabia are able to sustain only on the basis of oil money.

[This message has been edited by analyze it (edited September 09, 2001).]

Actually initially, under the first few centuries of Muslim rule, culture and science flourished under an Islamic government that had no separation between "church" and state. Only after the Mongols sacked Baghdad and much of the rest of the Muslim heartlands did culture and science decline; finally, they stagnated under the Ottomans.
Bear in mind that during the early 15th centuries, the Muslims had one of the most technologically advanced armies in the world- this allowed Muslims to take Constantinople despite its awesome array of defenses; Sultan Mehmet II deployed the largest cannons in the world in that battle. The technology to build them, from the scientific principle of the ballistics of such large rounds to the forging techniques to build them, were developed entirely within the Muslim world.

[quote]
Originally posted by kabir:
i think we muslims must stop living in past glories and realize the fact there in this modern age we must be practical
there must be a reviview on some of the age old practices .

[/quote]

Well said Kabir.

The greatness of any religion is it's willingness to adapt and be flexible.
Islam previously was the supreme religion as it has a mix of force( warriors) , love( sufis) and charm( rememeber the conversion of the mongols? )
Now however, the first is still visible and the other 2 are not.

Hate begets hate, love begets love .

I have to see the love of islam yet, and I yearn to be accepted by the followers of islam as myself and not as a hindu, kafir, etc etc .
The day that happens, and ppl see each other as brothers then the world becomes equal in all aspects.


Religion was created by man.....but dont forget......man was created by God.... Allah Ho Akhbar, Halleluiah, Jay Dev..... all are salutations to the Great One....

Moguls were not muslims. They were hiding behind Allah and Islam for their personal benefit. They broke every principle of Islam. and anybody who breaks Islimic principles called HARAMI and That's why all the Moguls were HARAMI . Followers of Moguls are also HARAMI.and going to wipe out just like MOGHUL

I think the downfall of Muslims was due to their later days refusal to learn new thoughts and invite fresh ideas. They thought they know everything and it is not necessary to proceed beyond Qu'ran and Hadith.

This is in total violation with the spirit of Islam. The Prophet(PBUH) wanted his followers to even go to China to acquire knowledge.

A specific example may help. The Al-Azhar University in Cairo was once the Harvard of the world. It was a center-par-excellence where great thoughts all over the world met.
When the Muslims conquered Spain, they built a similar univ over there.

What is the status of Al-Azhar now? I can't see any Muslim student making a beeline for admission. Rather they want to move to Amreeka, Canada and the west. Only ulemas and those who want to study religious issues or at best Islamic banking go to Al-Azhar. Only information we get from Al-Azhar is on Islamic research, no mention on advancements in information technology, biotechnology or any recent areas of science. If someone closes his door to modern world, he is likely to end up in cesspool of theocracy.

The non-Muslims used to rush in to the Spanish univ built on the model of Al-Azhar. Can this be imagined in present day Islamic universities?

I think this is a prime example of downfall of Islamic civilization.

But maybe Islamic civilization is only following the rule of nature : what goes up is bound to come down.

[quote]
Originally posted by honestali:
Islimic empire, what a joke. Show me one who is really follower of Islam? These guyes can't run country consisting of 4 provinces, do you think they will run an empire? Every day thousand of running from their country legally or illegally, what this shows?
[/quote]

Am I hearing that from a Hindu, the same hindu's who were complaining from this Islamic Empire.

Besides the day will come........soon.

Ijtihad and science

The writer is a former principal, Gordon College, Rawalpindi

For three hundred years, the doors of the tavern have been closed

--Iqbal

Why is it that for the last three hundred years, the Muslim world has been so deficient in producing philosophers, scientists and scholars? Why is it that even now when the Muslim world commands such immense resources, we lag so far behind the West in science and technology? The answer is clear. For three hundred years, the door of ijtihad ie creative thinking has been closed. Almost one-ninth of the verses of the Qur'aan stress tafakkur (thinking) and tadabbur (creative deliberation), yet, by and large the Muslim world pays no heed to them ie they turn their back on critical and creative thinking.

Instead, we love platitudes. We are fond of cliches. We bask in the glory of the past. We dread the new, the original and the novel. We revel in interpretation and re-interpretation, but we flinch from creativity. We are good at repeating moth-eaten, time-worn thoughts, views and traditions.

It is ingrained in our psychology that correct answers already exist, and are to be found in the books or from authorities, religious or secular. Teachers dispense truth, parents are always right and leaders are omniscient. They act like philosopher-kings, often uttering unchallenged banalities. Questing authority is disrespectful tantamount to apostasy. It is time to reconstruct, following the true Qur'aanic spirit of iconoclasm.

Science and philosophy cannot flourish in an atmosphere vitiated by obscurantism, dogmatism, fanaticism, intolerance and irrationalism. Science needs an intellectual environment whose keynote is enlightenment with rationalism, humanism and pluralism as its driving forces.

Historically it was the Renaissance which prepared the ground for the emergence of modern science. The Dark Age which preceded the Renaissance in Europe was dominated by scholasticism with philosophy as the hand-maiden of theology.

D'Alembert called scholasticism "the so-called science of the centuries of ignorance." The scholastics used to discuss such "profound" problems as the number of angels who could dance on the tips of a needle. Bacon compared the scholastics to the spiders, content to weave cobwebs, ignoring the universe and what was happening around them.

Scholasticism suffered from: (i) indifference to facts (ii) arguments from authority (iii) undue emphasis on verbal subtleties (iv) reasoning in matters which observation alone could decide (v) blind faith.

The Muslim philosophy carries all the deficiencies mentioned above.

Modern science had to make way by routing scholasticism. It was Descartes (1596-1650) who performed this task. He was not only the founder of modern philosophy, but, along with Galileo and Newton, one of the creators of modern science. Descartes started off on his philosophical odyssey by the dictum: "In order to reach the truth, it is necessary, once in one's life, to put everything in doubt".

Modern science has flourished in an atmosphere marked by philosophical scepticism. It does not take anything for granted. It puts to doubt all dogmas and all certainties. The beliefs of a scientist are tentative, not final. They are not based on authority, but on evidence. Modern science is iconoclastic in dealing with convictions based on tradition or authority. As opposed to scholasticism which believes in order to understand, modern science understands in order to believe.

Science demands an inquisitive spirit, a pioneering zeal and an enterprising elan. Any dichotomy between theory and practice spells disaster for scientific progress. The Greek science withered away, because it wholly and solely depended on deduction. Though the Greeks scaled the sublimest heights of speculative thought, their aversion to experimentation and manual work, closed the door for further scientific advancement.

Induction was a great gift of Islam to humanity. "Neither Roger Bacon nor his later namesake has any title to be credited with having introduced the experimental method," says Briffault in his book Making of Humanity and adds, "The experimental method of Arabs was by Bacon's time widespread and eagerly cultivated throughout Europe."

According to Iqbal, "For purposes of knowledge, the Muslim culture fixes its gaze on the concrete and the finite." When Iqbal emphasises the concrete and the finite, he exalts the scientific spirit at the expense of speculative flights into meta-physics.

By giving examples of Ibn-i-Khaldun's view of history, Ibn-e-Maskwaih's theory of life as evolutionary movement and Musa al-Khwarzami's shift from arithmetic to algebra, Iqbal concludes: "All lines of Muslim thought converge on a dynamic concept of the universe."

Thus Islam rejects a static view of the universe and regards it as always changing and evolving. According to the Qur'aan, change is one of the greatest signs of God. It is explicitly implied in the verse. "Every day has its own glory".

The Islamic principle to keep pace with the changing world and an evolving universe is ijtihad (exertion to form an independent opinion). Creativity is the essence of ijtihad. The driving force of the scientific technological revolution is creativity, developing new ideas and sailing in uncharted seas. In order to usher the scientific technological revolution, we must take the following steps.

Firstly, our educational system must be geared to strengthen mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology and information technology. Up to the 12th grade, all these subjects must be compulsory.

Secondly, our method of teaching must change emphasising the intelligent grasp of the subjects rather than memorising formulas and theorems.

Thirdly, our mass media must be mobilised to popularise scientific thinking ie rational, critical and creative thinking. The mass media must help create a new world outlook suffused with rationalism, humanism and pluralism.

Fourthly, our scientists must be made to feel that Pakistan needs them. They must be freed from the stranglehold of bureaucracy, and obscurantist priests.

Lastly, what is urgently needed is the political will on the part of the government to regard universal literacy and primary education as the topmost priority. Unless education is given the same importance as defence, because defence nowadays depends on education, no breakthrough is going to take place so far as the STR is concerned. By giving education the first priority, China has successfully ushered in the STR.