???
Really???
???
Is there any authentic proof that this number was used by Mohammad(pbuh)?
I don’t think there is, anyone?
Take it easy.
V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**
----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----
This number was not used by Prophet SAW.
However, this number is derived via assigning numbers to alphabets and conducting some calculations, which are routinely used to convert letters, words and sentences into numbers as a shortcut.
That said, this is not to say that it is a sin to use this short form. As far as i know, this shortcut is used sparingly, and is not used before recitation of the Quran, or recitation of namaz. Use of 786 does not entail bida'ah.
When Allah or His messenger want to teach us something, they do so in the clearest way, far from puzzles and mystery numbers. All the efforts made by some Muslims to count letters and relate them to numbers are nothing but a waste of time. Sometimes they do so with good intention to show that our deen is great. Indeed our deen is great, and not in need of such erroneous approaches.
*V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*
----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----
This is not a numbers game that 786 refers to. I, personally oppose any gimmicks that are attached to Islam in the name of 'miracles'. However, its not as if the whole Quran has been reduced to a number and people are using it as a tool.
786 is a mere symbol. No, it does not replace the actual ayah in anyway. No, it was not taught either by Allah SWT or Prophet SAW. And at the same time, it does not fall into the category of what you call 'erroneous approach'. Like i said before, this numerical shortcut is used in places where it is deemed dangerous to write the ayah, like a paper, or a copy, that is likely to be placed on the floor, or trampled on inadvertantly.
This is an innocent and harmless alternative, and does not alter ones faith in anyway.
Using 786 is not a complete alternative to 'Bismillah', but its usage does not have to be studied with a microscope of bida'at.
Without going into whether it is a Bida'ah or not,I must say that it is simply foolish to use 786 in place of Bismillah.Saying that it is used where it is deemed dangerous to write the ayah itself also is nothing but folly.Becuase the no.786 does not mean Bismillah.It does not.It can't be an innocent or harmless alternative because it simply isn't an alternative.
If one is afraid that a paper where it is written would would be placed on the floor or trampled than they should use some other alternative.
Exactly, Ahmad.
I would rather use/write bismilla than write 786. Because after all its just a number and one can apply any meaning to a number.
*V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*
----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----
[quote]
Originally posted by Ahmed:
Without going into whether it is a Bida'ah or not,I must say that it is simply foolish to use 786 in place of Bismillah.Saying that it is used where it is deemed dangerous to write the ayah itself also is nothing but folly.Becuase the no.786 does not mean Bismillah.It does not.It can't be an innocent or harmless alternative because it simply isn't an alternative.
If one is afraid that a paper where it is written would would be placed on the floor or trampled than they should use some other alternative.
[/quote]
..and would u care enuff to share with us...
wht alternative that could be?..
Whatever limits us we call fate!
Whatever we can't change we call destiny!
[This message has been edited by ^DerVaisH^ (edited January 22, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by ^DerVaisH^:
** ..and would u care enuff to share with us...
wht alternative that could be?..**
[/quote]
No.
[quote]
Originally posted by Ahmed:
Becuase the no.786 does not mean Bismillah.It does not.It can't be an innocent or harmless alternative because it simply isn't an alternative.
[/quote]
Noone said 786 'means' bismillah.
And its not a one-to-one alternate, no.
And I have never used it, and never will.
However, this number is derived by assigning numbers to alphabets, and the purpose of its usage is not meant to equate an ayah to a number. It is a harmless alternative, yes, which does not alter any component of ones faith. If someone wishes to use it, it does not imply that they are indulging in bida'ah.
Bida'ah is a very delicate word, which everyone seems to be tossing around like pancakes on this forum without knowing the true meaning of the word. Dont declare something a bida'a without adequate knowledge and proof, since that declaration itself is a sin.
Salam All!
Is there any evidence that the Prophet (SAW) used this number: NO
Is this number in Al-Quran: NO
Was this number used by the pious Salaf: NO
Are there any authetic Hadiths about this number: NO
If you insist of using it, and associating it with Islam, then either you are saying Islam is imcomplete, or bro/sis you are weak in deen, and Insha-Allah ask Allah to cast this 786 outta yr heart, cos it is not from Al-Islam.
Case Closed
Salam All
the number, as i mentioned before, is not a one to one alternative to the ayah, No. But it does not constitute bid'a. Do learn the meaning of the word bida'a before branding some practice as such.
If you insist of using it, and associating it with Islam, then either you are saying Islam is imcomplete, or bro/sis you are weak in deen, and Insha-Allah ask Allah to cast this 786 outta yr heart, cos it is not from Al-Islam<<
This is not an addition to islam, as you are implying. It does not imply that Islam in incomplete without it. And presence of this does not constitute weak Iman. Again, do a good research on what a bida'a is before assessing someone elses Iman. Calling an act a bida'a which is NOT a bida'a is just as big a sin as engaging in a true bida'a.
Well I never said it was a Bida’ah did I?
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
Infact I said particularly that I wasn’t going to get into that.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
But you see the methods used to get this number can be used to find a number for the word Allah aswell.So should we use the same logic and stop using the word Allah and use a number for that aswell?Infact we should probably use numbers whenever an ayah is to be mentioned somewhere in a script.
How about never saying(i mean writing)the word Mohammad,one should simply write 132 in place of that.Afterall the name of our beloved prophet(pbuh)can’t be any less sacred can it?
Another thing to be considered is that if we are to use 786,this same number 786 also stands for many other expressions(other than Bismillah)so why should it only stand exclusively for Bismillah?This is where it especially becomes clear that 786 is just a number which could stand virtually for anything.
There is no argument in the fact that this number is NOT a replacement for the ayah itself. And noone is arguing that any other ayah be converted into numbers in a similar way.
Well I never said it was a Bida'ah did I?
If an argument for it being a bida'a is not being put forth, then what is the basis for branding it 'un'islamic? Our personal views and opinions dont matter a bit when it comes to Islam. And forbidding something for any reason other than it being a clear bida'a is wrong in itself. And if its a bida'a, you need to prove it.
Bottom line, usage of this abbreviated form by anyone does not affect their faith. It was not used by Prophet SAW, true. But 786 is not an 'addition' to Islam. 786 is a numerical conversion to Bismillah al Rahman ar Raheem. Similarly, in the name of Allah, the beneficient, the merciful is an english conversion to Bimillah. Is it wrong to use this too? Prophet SAW never used it either.
Salam
Up until 3/4 yrs ago, I thought that 786 was part of islam - why was that? because i saw it used in books, films etc and so i associated it with Islam. Bro this is clearly an innovation and as such IS a Bid'da as it is not established from Quran & Sunnah. Is the argument now that 786 is an innovation or that it is not bid'ah????
The common definition of bida'a that I have seen on these forums is that anything that the Prophet SAW did not do is a bida'a. That is such a misguiding translation, because for that matter, Prophet SAW never used the internet, never spoke english, and never slept on a mattress. A bida'a is a very very strong word, and its misuse is just as wrong as a major sin.
A bida'a is a practice that is incorporated into Islam for the sole purpose of gaining sawab.
786 is a numerical translation. There are conversions of Quranic ayahs in practically all languages of the world. Are all those translations bida'at?
Wearing pants and shirt is not established from Quran and Sunnah either.
A translation is not used in namaz. Similarly, 786 is not used before reciting a surah. We need to differentiate its usage from what an actual bida'a is.
[quote]
Originally posted by Eastern Analog:
The common definition of bida'a that I have seen on these forums is that anything that the Prophet SAW did not do is a bida'a. That is such a misguiding translation, because for that matter, Prophet SAW never used the internet, never spoke english, and never slept on a mattress. A bida'a is a very very strong word, and its misuse is just as wrong as a major sin.
[/quote]
Now EA,I think this is not fair atall.I don't think any of the members here think that way.I am sure people here realize what a Bida'ah is.
**
[quote]
A bida'a is a practice that is incorporated into Islam for the sole purpose of gaining sawab. **
[/quote]
Is that correct?If it is then does it make practices not meant for sawab all right?Shall I give you some examples?Think about it please.Especiallly considering what you told me after I said I wasn't getting into Bida'ah.
**
[quote]
786 is a numerical translation. There are conversions of Quranic ayahs in practically all languages of the world. Are all those translations bida'at?
Wearing pants and shirt is not established from Quran and Sunnah either.**
[/quote]
Sorry EA,
Both these arguments are silly.Neither is 786 a translation nor do clothes have anything to do with this.I'll ignore the clothes part but let me say that the translation inother language means what it means...exclusively so.786 can mean thousands of things.Secondly,who do we need the "numerical" translation for?Sorry but even if it could be called numerical translation(which it can't as I explained)it would be the flimsy argument at best.
**
[quote]
A translation is not used in namaz. Similarly, 786 is not used before reciting a surah. We need to differentiate its usage from what an actual bida'a is.**
[/quote]
Then when is it used?Your answer is important.
P.S.Have you been reading the other thread?
When something is incorporated into your 'faith' as a source for earning sawab, such as praying at mazars, going to peers etc. it is called a bida'a. Do give me examples that you were referring to, and i will try to explain them the best I can.
If i gave you a greek translation of the Quran, would you be able to understand it? If you and I cant understand it, who do we need that translation for? For people who speak greek of course, because there are people in this world who do; hence the greek language. The science of numerals is an exacted science as well, and there are numerous ways of converting text into numbers, and again, that conversion would be greek to you, since you dont know that science. To those few who do know it, they are able to decipher it.
786 can mean thousands of things
sure, and same goes for just about any other word in any other language. You give me a word in english, and i will give you more than 1 meaning for it. You give me a word in arabic, and i will give you more than one meaning for that as well. Give me a word in urdu, and i will give you 50 meanings for it.
Its all about what your intention is when you are saying that word. If you intend for it to mean Bismillah, then thats what it will be.
Then when is it used?Your answer is important.
Like i said in a previous post, it is not a one to one substitute for the ayah in anyway. It is used in places where its deemed dangerous to write Allahs name, since that place might be subject to unintentional disrespect.
Again, I do not use this numeric form, nor do i find it convincing when someone uses it. However, it is not a violation of any Islamic laws, nor is it a bida'a. Just because we do not understand a certain form of a word, does not mean that form is wrong.
We have to come up with something more than mere 'personal' beliefs before we brand something unislamic or a bida'a.
[This message has been edited by Eastern Analog (edited January 23, 2001).]
.
[This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited January 23, 2001).]
I will.Soon.You’ll find some below anyway, but I’ll write them seperatley aswell.
**
This doesn’t answer my question.I had asked who do we need numerical tranlation for?Greek translation is not needed for those who speak greek…it is needed for those who speak only greek.
And translation in greek or urdu will not be same as arabic and as such no worries about disrespect.Why not use that instead of numbers?Why numbers which are not even a translation?Would it not be better to say something meaningful?
**
Can I say 819 then please?Why not?Why yes?
**
Allah’s name?Ok then why not use 66 wherever Allah’s name is to be mentioned and 132(or 92?) wherever the prophet(SAW)'s name is to be mentioned?Why hasn’t anybody done that as yet?Why can other ayahs be allowed to be disrespected?Why treat them as sotaili??
**
Glad to know you don’t use it Eastern bhai,and I do understand this form.Precisely why I insist it’s not right.Did I say it was Gunah by the way?
**
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
.Another thread comes to mind.
But mine is not merely a personal view eastern bhai sahib,I have reasons for it.
[This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited January 23, 2001).]
where did this 786 originate from.. apart from deriving it based on numbers and letters of the alphabet. is it used only in the indian subcontinent (as many bid'as that i've seen are done there i.e. in pakistan and india.. the mazaars and peers and stuff). who derived it ? is it on the same basis as the number 19 thing that everything was a multiple of 19 and stuff by Rashid Khalifa?
emaan is emaan is emaan. we are losing the core and enhancing the peel. if the core is lost.. the peel will fall shortly.
-mehndi