Re: The Not Moderate Muslim Thread
LOL where getting tips from a troll on how to be a Muslim :)
there is no comparison between the earthquake and the wave of terrorism.
the earthquake was a natural disaster. and obviously at the state level, the govt was not well equipped to deal with it. but as you said, the common man stepped up and helped his fellow Pakistani as he always does. something that is great about our nation.
terrorism is man-made. it is not a natural disaster. and our govt and army are well equipped to deal with this threat to the state. it is not a matter of competence or incompetence. they can kill this evil. the only problem is support of the people. but things are getting better… things were much worse in Musharraf’s time when armymen would make the ultimate sacrifice and they would be buried without any recognition. now in the current govt, seems like a more concerted effort to recognize the sacrifices of our shuhada has been made.
and whenever the families of those brave men have been interviewed, you know what they all have asked for? army families have repeatedly asked for the public’s support. they say that it is tough for them to fight for the country if they’re not even supported by their countrymen. instead of being recognized as heroes of the nation, if they’re considered killers, then why should they bother sacrificing their lives for this country and its people?
Re: The Not Moderate Muslim Thread
samb.
Its not that hard to see what I am saying.
By no means I have to win discussion. I want you to see the things what they are.
We are missing major things as a nation. Unless we are equipped their more severe issue will follow(naeousbillah) AND yet again we will be clueless.
Nice talking to you.
Re: The Not Moderate Muslim Thread
and I don't understand why you keep diverting the discussion from a very simple point I'm trying to make to aaein baaein shaaein.
yes, the state has done many things poorly. but the govt deserves unanimous support from the public when it is fighting terrorists who are trying to destroy the country... regardless of whether the terrorist has a beard or not. whether he is a momin or not. if he is fighting the state and killing Pakistanis, then no Pakistani in his right mind should defend/make excuses for such terrorists. it is unacceptable.
see ya.
Re: The Not Moderate Muslim Thread
There is no discussion brother.
There is knowing and then there is not knowing. :)
oh I see...
a thousand apologies... o wise, all-knowing one.
Right, Religion ke nam per chalna, khana aur uthna bethna bhi aik tareeqy se hu kehna insani zindagi insan ki nahi robot ki lagti hai. Aik Allah/God Bhgwa zaroor hai per agar mera dil os ko mododi, Norani ya Mufti ke style main daikhny ko nahi kerta tu main kaisey aur kiya keron 
once I have said to an IRANIAN lady ( Irani and Afghani tu ham se ziada pakkey Muslim hain na:D)ke I have blind faith in Allah woh chamak ker boli Sister there is no such thing as Blind Faith:hehe: I just said that’s your way of seeing God I have my own way:) yaqeen kero after that meeting os ka sans phhol giya tha aur os ne ghat ghat pani piya baher nikal ker jab ke main sirf muskura rahi thi itminan o aram ke sath:hehe:
Re: The Not Moderate Muslim Thread
Urm, an Agnostic doesn't believe in a supreme being or anything. They basically don't give a you know what about a supreme being or If there is a higher power out there. You are mistaking Agnosticism with a Deism.
Re: The Not Moderate Muslim Thread
we pakistanis have been led deeprootedly astray that i do feel sympathy for those who want to call themselves 'moderate' . its like the rules of non religious yesterday have been changed overnight, and the possibility of Gods law ruling over them hangs in the distance
but here we are, and time waits for no-one, tests are ongoing
may they, may we all seek to please Allah subhana wa ta'ala
Moderate Muslim is juat a label used for divide and conquer purposes. Quite frankly its becomig more and more difficult to live in a materialistic and hedonistic West as a good Muslim.
My interpretation of a moderate muslim is someone wh follows islam moderately. Out of the 5 compulsory daily prayers they pray 3, hey fats 20 out of the 30 days, etc. Its the moderate practise of Islam which would make them sinners anyway.
BUT
The ones who promoted the this label ie the Western World use itto describe a person who does not threaten their interests. A moderate muslim to America will be someone who accepts American hegemony over the world. Some one whose belief system does not challenge the current power structure. Some one who accepts American/Western Values which can be very different to ours. Its based on capitalism, the pursuit of pleasure to satsify own self etc. ie Some one they can accept and fit into their lives.
Re: The Not Moderate Muslim Thread
so summary is that we are all muslims, well or the so called moderate muslims are agnostics and not really muslims, but the chaps blowing stuff and people up are muslims?
okay then, I stand corrected and am infact an agnostic and not a muslim.
I also understand that there is no difference between all the muslims for example those posting here and the muslims blowing up people, because either you are a muslim or you are not, and as long as you follow the 5 pillars as a minimal requirement then whatever else you do has no bearing on your standing. but you can be a fantastic individual but just not praying 5 times a day and that makes you not a muslim.
so someone who does not fully comply with the 5 pillars we can declare them as non muslims, but those who follow the 5 pillars or 4 or 3, since hajj and zakat may not be in someone's ability...so anyways those who follow them, regardless of what else they do, we have to still consider them muslims.
and well you are either a muslim, or you are not, and they are muslims, and everyone else is a muslim, so infact they are all one and the same. no distinction.
did I get that right?
Thanks
PS: I do find it amusing that the so called 'moderate muslims" are always being shoved out islam..but the so called "militant or extremist muslims" are just fine and dandy as muslims.
Re: The Not Moderate Muslim Thread
Oddly i know of in quite a few cases in Pakistan where if you tell people you are a "Muslim"..people assume you must be a shia or Ahmadi or even worse a communist (translation a RAW-|CIA- mossad spy). You are almost expected to qualify debates on Islam with I'm a deobandi/barelvi etc
I agree moderate/conservative/liberal Muslim is something used in the west more often ..and Facebook :p
You didnt think I’d count did you 
Its 16 pages, 20 posts per page. 10 ads that I can count that contain the word moderate, and that is being generous, in that I also include “moderately religious” which relates more to personal practice and doesnt have the political/WOT connotations that “moderate Muslim” has, and which this thread concerns itself with.
But I let it go, 10 distinct ads, that I could count whether within Pakistan or in the West, that have the word moderate in them, in a 16 page thread. Lets say 1 in every 2 post is a response to an earlier post. That works out to 8 pages of 20 thread posts. 160 ads. 1/16. Sufficient statistics to say Pakistanies ‘tend’ to call themselves moderate Muslims?
Re: The Not Moderate Muslim Thread
라 시드 I said Agnostic because usually they do believe in a supreme power. Doesn’t need to be god it could be a pantheon or mother earth or something but they don’t usually follow organized religion.
Agnostic | Define Agnostic at Dictionary.com
Colourful eyes. Of course I troll. Its fun. Doesn’t mean I am wrong though 
Ravage couldn’t get to the rest of the post. I will do so today. Got sidetracked. But it doesn’t matter it if a sufficient statistic, the fact is that people do in fact define themselves with the term moderate. That is all I needed to prove. If you take GS as a microcosm of Pakistani society, 1/16 could be considered to be a sufficient number. But that is not the reason I posted. I posted it to show that people use the term moderate in day to day affairs not while discussing religion or politics.
And back to my original point. The term moderate applies to political and socio-economic views and not to religious ones.
Fraudia as always you resort to sarcasm when you get your panties in a bunch. Lets recap shall we. The extremists are not representative of the faith. They are in fact nut jobs. Crazies who abuse and insult Islam for their own political and economic gains. That was stated a few days ago and you had no issue with the answer then. All of a sudden you have go to the retard Pakistani route of “But they do worse.”
As for the agnostic part. If you do not pray. Do not give zakat, do not fast, do not go for Hajj. The only think that is left is the concept of the oneness of Allah. That by definition makes you agnostic - as the link posted above. You believe in a supreme being but you do not believe in religion.
And more importantly unlike your sarcastic strawman, the example used so far is that 4 out of the 5 pillars are not adhered to. Hey if you give zakat, fast but do not pray well if i recall correctly you will burn in hell for not praying but just considered a sinful Muslim. Someone from the more religiously informed mod squad can correct me of course.
But the question is why would you want to be considered Muslim if you do not actually practice the faith? The you being generic of course.
And to clarify since you missed it, no you didn’t get right.
Zakk those are the guys I usually get into an argument with.
Ravage couldn't get to the rest of the post. I will do so today. Got sidetracked.
do that.
[quote]
But it doesn't matter it if a sufficient statistic, the fact is that people do in fact define themselves with the term moderate. That is all I needed to prove. If you take GS as a microcosm of Pakistani society, 1/16 could be considered to be a sufficient number.
[/quote]
1/16 could be considered a sufficient number for what exactly? You have been speaking as if people 'tend to' define themselves as 'moderate Muslim'. I hope you understand enough statistics to know 1/16 of a population is not characteristic.
[quote]
But that is not the reason I posted. I posted it to show that people use the term moderate in day to day affairs not while discussing religion or politics.
[/QUOTE]
its a particularly bad example given that the context is a number of ads was very non-political/non-WOT (every ad I paused to read, tx for that) and so people may not even have the whole oh i dont want to be associated with suicide bombing thing going on, they really mean moderate in the sense of he keeps 15 out of 30 rozas. You may find that religiously objectionable but Mulla CM but we wouldnt be having this discussion.
[quote]
And back to my original point. The term moderate applies to political and socio-economic views and not to religious ones.
[/quote]
it is applied to religious views, the urdu term for it is miana ravi. It is also applied to religious practice, to describe how successful you are.
too right. what is funny is these threads crop up every so often, nobody talks about ‘moderate Islam’ more than those who think its a big threat that everyones talking about moderate Islam. you have cute poems like this one and not so cute discussions like these every so often, where the self-identified ‘moderate Muslim’ is curiously absent, but the self-identified ‘socio-political’ extremist is present. Im sure I’ve knocked heads with Lajawab on this topic a while back too. while ofcourse since the criterion for the Muslim is observance of the pillars the ‘extremists’ get to be in the brotherhood and presumably safe from poetry.
edit: Five blasts in Peshawar today, another on an ANP rally. its possible there might not be a thread on it. guess you need to prioritise things.
Re: The Not Moderate Muslim Thread
To simplify the situation: You stated
[quote]
Firstly you have a false premise that people 'tend to' define themselves in those terms. It is much more common to take the approach you do where what I believe is Islam and everything else is the 'other' whatever you want to call it. Dont really have a preference myself between the two approaches.
[/quote]
I stated:
[quote]
They do. Look at this forum. Do a search it is rather easy one to figure out. Also there is no My Islam or other islam. There is Islam. You either follow it or you don't. No picking and choosing like shopping in a mall.
[/quote]
You followed it up with:
[quote]
Prove it. I'll do a simple google test. "I am a moderate Muslim" on paklinks gives you a single post where someone is actually claiming to be a moderate Muslim. "I am a Muslim" gives you about 430.
[/quote]
I proved it. 10 people defined themselves in that term in one thread alone. Point proven. I made no claims of its statistical significance. I merely stated that people do use the term moderate to describe themselves. I asked for proof I provided it.
Now lets not change the narrative yet again shall we. This aspect of the discussion is over.
As for the rest of the post. Skipping the issue of Stormfront.
Interesting for extremist Christians you are willing to go with how society defines them. When society defines the Taliban as crazies. You have to make the distinction with the term moderate.
The crux of the issue remains. Regardless of actions taken by the crazies. People of other faiths do not start labeling themselves as moderates. Regardless of the schisms and issues I have yet to see someone say I am a moderate catholic because of the actions of a few in the church. That is the pathetic part really when it comes to Muslims.
If you do not care of others definitions then why do you care about this discussion?
As for religious differences, I seriously suggest you read up on the matter when it comes to justifying killing of civilians in Islam. You see your problem is that you are willing to accept that the Taliban are Muslims when I am not. There is no justification in Islam to kill innocent civilians. The fact that you think there is room for discussion on this matter is appalling.
Not quite. You’ve got your history a little wrong. This line of the discussion started with you saying:
The subject is that those of you in the west tend to define yourselves in terms of “moderate Muslim” or “Liberal Muslim” when in actuality the faith is not changed.
Here there is a definite claim of statistical significance. ‘Tend to’ suggests that if you picked out a random person in the west they would define themselves in terms of ‘moderate muslim’. The proof you offer is 1/16 of ads in a single thread, a mix of people in the West and in Pakistan.
Which society exactly defines them merely as crazies?
Both judaism and christianity have their reform/progressive/liberal movements. I dont think we need to follow them in these respects but the impulse to appear ‘civilized’ and fit in with the modern world isnt limited to Muslims.
But beyond these fine points, I’ll come back to the point we were making earlier. You agreed with me that there is a definite distinction between people you prefer to call crazies and those who disavow what the ‘crazies’ stand for. Is what this distinction is referred to as really worth this much bile? Whether it be ‘crazies’/‘muslims’ or ‘extremists’/‘moderates’ or anything else might be an interesting academic discussion but really is linguistics that important to you?
Once again, you’re reading too much into words. ‘Moderate’ isnt so far removed from ‘Reformed’. A minority uses that exact label, and it possibly has currency partially because there is a direct translation to it into an Islamic concept (miana ravi).
I dont care to correct yours or anyone else’s definition of Muslim. Its a pointless, unprovable claim, and a black hole of fruitless back and forth.
My mentioning that there religious arguments for killing of civilians does not mean I regard those religious justifications as correct. I dont want to post links to their idiotic forums, but browse through this forum if you wish. There is no doubt that they do offer religious justifications for killing civilians/suicide bombing/other aspects of what people call ‘extremist’ and you call ‘crazies’
You and I dont comprise the Muslim world. We accept no justification to kill civilians, we accept no justification probably for a number of other things. Doesnt mean those justifications dont exist, and are regarded as Islamic by a certain number of Muslims. Just as you and I can call ourselves Muslims and others non-Muslims so can they to us. We can agree in this thread to call them non-Muslims, what do you think will happen? Will they and those who support them start calling them non-Muslims?
As a shia, I’ve seen my sunni coreligionists argue passionately about whether or not I was a Muslim. Does my religious state change because one side or the other gains ascendancy? Not really.
You can shout down other voices, but you cant think you’ll define their identity.
Re: The Not Moderate Muslim Thread
Ravage where did I place any qualifier that you consider this an issue of statistics? You see me say anything like a majority? Most? Half? No. I merely stated
No qualifier. No discussion on statistical significance. As for your personal subjective reading of the phrase tend to is not of my concern. I am not responsible for how you interpret my words.
Also just for you - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tend+to
No where in the definition of the word does it include any form of qualifier stating quantity or a statistical value.
Muslim society defines them as crazies. In the case of Taliban Pakistani society does.
Judaism and Christianity have reform movements. That is not what we are discussing. Reform movements are a different ball game compared to the term moderate. Unless you are making the claim that moderate Muslims follow a reformed version of Islam?
Again I repeat my question a bit more clearly for you. If you do not care about my or anybody else’s definition of Muslim then why are you so bothered that some people consider the concept of a moderate Muslim moronic. It is our view. You don’t care. So why get involved in the discussion?
As I stated before there are no religious justifications for killing innocents. In the case you posted, like I told Fraudia it is merely people abusing religion to justify their actions.
Its sad to see you are essentially saying that Islam justifies the killing of innocent civilians.
Re: The Not Moderate Muslim Thread
.