And samb you want start a thread on the crazies. By all means do so. Bad sadly you fall into the typical Pakistani retard mentality. "Oh look my guy is doing something bad......but lookie here he is doing something worse".
Sure if you don't pray, don't fast, don't pay zakat. Sure that doesn't affect us. But please don't insult us and Islam by calling yourself a Muslim.
I am sorry but are you actually saying that there is any kind of a reasonable comparison between say me not praying versus a retard mullah aka "real Muslim" supporting TTP? edit
you can call me what you want... Muslim, kaafir, whatever... I'm not asking to be accepted as a Muslim. doesn't affect me...
but what I'm saying is that so much attention is paid to people who miss namaz, aren't enthusiastic about shuttlecock burqas, etc and how they're not true Muslims. then how about giving a little, teeny tiny bit of attention to those loud and proud Muslims who support terrorists who are destroying our country?
And a number of people support Pat Robertson, Stormfront, the Neo-Nazis and so many more christian faith based racist military groups. That doesn't stop Christians from saying they are Christians and not allowing their faith to be ridiculed.
Stormfront and Neo-Nazies are not taken as representative of Christians. Pat Robertson/Ted Haggart etc are taken as representatives of American Evangelism for sure.
I think Christians have it easier because they have much more firmer divisions that they can insulate themselves into. Protestants are protected from this child abuse scandal right now, but catholics arent. Whats helping there, partially, is oversegmentation, not under. Along with a desire to keep a kinder media narrative.
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The subject matter is not that differences exist. They do.
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Great.
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The subject is that those of you in the west tend to define yourselves in terms of "moderate Muslim" or "Liberal Muslim"
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Firstly you have a false premise that people 'tend to' define themselves in those terms. It is much more common to take the approach you do where what I believe is Islam and everything else is the 'other' whatever you want to call it. Dont really have a preference myself between the two approaches.
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when in actuality the faith is not changed. Only the political and socio-economic view points.
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Not really. There is a religious difference in addition to any political/socio-economic ones. The issue is often debated in religious terms, not merely political ones.
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So placing the misnomer of moderate or liberal is merely a method by which those who do so cloak themselves in false sense of reality and more importantly seem more acceptable to their Western counter-parts.
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Its a strawman argument to talk about motivations etc. You can have the wrong motivations for making the right distinction. You can have the wrong language to make the right distinction.
It is an important religious distinction to make, not merely for any pragmatic goals, but to preserve your own religion's nature.
yeah pappu, I was talking about you. I've taken your name plenty of times. and here it is again. you yourself try to avoid me... hence, I was playing your game. before this I've always addressed you except for the one post above and am happy to do so in the future.
yeah go quote me. like I give a edit I wouldn't have posted that if I was so worried about someone like you quoting me.
as far as your support of TTP goes... you might not have come out in support openly like some of your esteemed fellow "real" Muslims. but whenever the TTP are discussed, when your ilk say things like - 1) well we asked for it by attacking them first... 2) oh they're not our enemies... all we have to do is stop supporting Amreekans. 3) this is a conspiracy against Muslims 4) this is a result of drone attacks. or some retarded combination of the above bakwaas.
well guess what that is making excuses and worse indirectly defending attacks that cannot be defended... that is trying spread confusion over the issue. when anyone attacks organs of the state like armymen or police, there's no excuse for it... absolutely no justification for it. doesn't matter if Amreeka invaded Afghanistan. I don't give a *edit*about it. it doesn't give any retard moulvi like Muslim Khan, Fazlullah, Baitullah Mehsud, Hakimullah Mehsud the right to launch attacks in Pakistan on civilians, policemen or army.
now, come out and say you agree with that - without any ifs or buts. just say it. your iman won't be lessened. none of your 72 virgins will be taken away. just say that terrorism by TTP, suicide bombings are inhumane, barbaric and crimes against humanity - no matter what is happening in Afghanistan, no matter what the Afghan Taliban or Amreekans are doing in Afghanistan... no excuses. no ifs, no buts. just a clear condemnation of TTP.
take your own advice and discuss like an adult, no need to swear.
and i'm not going to answer your filthy question. go fool some1 else.
if you really concerned where i stand, just read my previous posts.
i have no clue why you're even posting in this thread anyways when you post such things:
CM bhai, no matter how much we like to sugar coat it, the facts tell us one thing only which is shaytaan is at work against Allah, his religion and its' followers. others don't understand this because they're so caught up in this whole politically correct mumbo jumbo. that's all there's to it, we can debate on semantics all day and night, that fact will remain..!
take your own advice and discuss like an adult, no need to swear.
and i'm not going to answer your filthy question. go fool some1 else.
if you really concerned where i stand, just read my previous posts.
there we go. the same games you and your ilk play in PA. excuses.
well they wouldn't be attacking us, if we hadn't attacked them first.
this would have never happened if Amreeka didn't attack Afghanistan... and had we resisted Amreeka... (yeah that makes a lot of sense... "I myself I'm going to pick up my toys and move to Quebec, canada but you lot - you know you Pakistanis, you go fight amreeka in Afghanistan..." gotcha mard-e-mujahid...)
the whole thing is a conspiracy against the Muslim ummah. (err. what conspiracy. some terrorists are attacking Pakistan. they need to be wiped out end of story.)
as far as my quote is concerned, why don't you make it a part of your signature. that way you can carry it with you whenever and wherever you post...
there we go. the same games you and your ilk play in PA. excuses.
well they wouldn't be attacking us, if we hadn't attacked them first.
this would have never happened if Amreeka didn't attack Afghanistan... and had we resisted Amreeka... (yeah that makes a lot of sense... "I myself I'm going to pick up my toys and move to Quebec, canada but you lot - you know you Pakistanis, you go fight amreeka in Afghanistan..." gotcha mard-e-mujahid...)
the whole thing is a conspiracy against the Muslim ummah. (err. what conspiracy. some terrorists are attacking Pakistan. they need to be wiped out end of story.)
as far as my quote is concerned, why don't you make it a part of your signature. that way you can carry it with you whenever and wherever you post...
dude I am just assuming(dont know you enough) that you are effected by what goes around you.
But if you mange to get rid of all that.
You will see poor country and old/weak ppl are pretty much same.
dude I am just assuming(dont know you enough) that you are effected by what goes around you.
But if you mange to get rid of all that.
You will see poor country and old/weak ppl are pretty much same.
Both can cause any disease very easily.
1-From with in(MQM)
2-from out side(Taliban)
I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean. are you saying that just because of poverty and a thousand other problems that average Pakistanis face, it is okay for a terrorist to go and blow us up, rip apart our limbs, spill our blood on our streets, kill the sons and daughters of the soil, behead our commandos, blow up our brave policemen?
I do not support MQM. and I've always opposed them strongly and their fascist tactics. but even I'm beginning to think that despite MQM's at time fascist and almost terrorist techniques, there is no comparison between MQM and terrorists like Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan.
I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean. are you saying that just because of poverty and a thousand other problems that average Pakistanis face, it is okay for a terrorist to go and blow us up, rip apart our limbs, spill our blood on our streets, kill the sons and daughters of the soil, behead our commandos, blow up our brave policemen? .
Well we have established Taliban are criminals.
Now what you trying to establish here?
You want to punish them?
you want to reform them?
you are trying to understand them?
.
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I do not support MQM. and I've always opposed them strongly and their fascist tactics. but even I'm beginning to think that despite MQM's at time fascist and almost terrorist techniques, there is no comparison between MQM and terrorists like Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan.
[/QUOTE]
Dude I am not big on politics. I want to say in poor countries their is always a potential for some evil minds to exploit common ppl.
With out starting a new debate let me give you few examples.
zia/altaf = exploitation of two ethnicity
Bhuto = exploitation of two classes.
in india , we see its always muslim against hindus etc.
Always ppl bigger then ppl dying, pulling the strings.
I am sorry but are you actually saying that there is any kind of a reasonable comparison between say me not praying versus a retard mullah aka "real Muslim" supporting TTP? fk me.
you can call me what you want... Muslim, kaafir, whatever... I'm not asking to be accepted as a Muslim. doesn't affect me...
but what I'm saying is that so much attention is paid to people who miss namaz, aren't enthusiastic about shuttlecock burqas, etc and how they're not true Muslims. then how about giving a little, teeny tiny bit of attention to those loud and proud Muslims who support terrorists who are destroying our country?
Nope. What I am saying is that you are basically using a strawman argument to detract from the discussion.
You don't seem read much. Look at the PA forums. See how many of the regular posters support the TTP.
Ravage Stormfront these days is representative of Christian communities. Considering their growth and how much they use the internet to recruit. But that is a difference of opinion based on subjective values. But I do find your distinction between Christianity and American Evangelism very interesting. By your own words you define them as a sub-sect. Shame really.
But interestingly enough most if not all Catholics do not all of sudden start defining their religion and themselves as moderates due to the actions of some crazy priests and bishops. Sadly some parts of the Muslim community falls victim to this insecurity.
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Firstly you have a false premise that people 'tend to' define themselves in those terms. It is much more common to take the approach you do where what I believe is Islam and everything else is the 'other' whatever you want to call it. Dont really have a preference myself between the two approaches.
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They do. Look at this forum. Do a search it is rather easy one to figure out. Also there is no My Islam or other islam. There is Islam. You either follow it or you don't. No picking and choosing like shopping in a mall.
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Not really. There is a religious difference in addition to any political/socio-economic ones. The issue is often debated in religious terms, not merely political ones.
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Do highlight these differences in religion please. Because just a few pages ago you agreed that ones faith does not change in Post Number 8 of the thread.
Well we have established Taliban are criminals.
Now what you trying to establish here?
You want to punish them?
you want to reform them?
you are trying to understand them?
well, in my mind they're terrorists and enemies of Pakistan. they don't need to be punished. they need to be wiped out. that is my opinion.
but the reason why I bring this up because there are people who post in PA who think these terrorists have somehow been wronged/victimized and hence, they're justified in "taking revenge" by killing Pakistanis. and most of these people are also the ones who get all horny about moderates and how they're not Muslim enough for them... instead of having to defend themselves, they are actually on the offensive (not referring to CM here). which is just remarkable. seems like a case of ulta chor kotwaal ko daantay.
[quote]
.Dude I am not big on politics. I want to say in poor countries their is always a potential for some evil minds to exploit common ppl.
With out starting a new debate let me give you few examples.
zia/altaf = exploitation of two ethnicity
Bhuto = exploitation of two classes.
in india , we see its always muslim against hindus etc.
Always ppl bigger then ppl dying, pulling the strings.
[/QUOTE]
again, Zia and Altaf Hussain are probably the two most despicable creatures in Pakistani political history. but again comparing even them to outright terrorists is ridiculous.
I'm not denying that class differences, religion, etc are not exploited. but exploiting differences for the sake of political gain is completely different from spreading nondiscriminatory death and destruction designed to bring a state to its knees. and anyone who supports, defends or makes excuses for the latter should be behind bars, imo.
even in west kids under18 dont to to normal jails.
Their name is not even released.
15-16 years old?? they are kids for cryin out loud.
There will be a time when west show them as what they are, mostly boy soldiers, like the ones in afreeka.
And again why cant we adopt west's idea in this case??? why not taking those young brainwashed kids out of exploitation and reprogram them to be normal.....
you seem to be more of an expert on stormfront, so I’ll defer to you on that.
Thats the label they attribute themselves, and are generally attributed by society. See for example this wiki page on Haggard. First line.
I think catholics are pretty upset about the crazy priests and bishops. And routinely schisms have happened in the church based on the actions of priests and bishops that denominations disagreed with. Just read up on the Church’s history a bit.
Prove it. I’ll do a simple google test. “I am a moderate Muslim”](Google Search)on paklinks gives you a single post where someone is actually claiming to be a moderate Muslim.“I am a Muslim”](Google Search)gives you about 430.
Whatever you believe you believe. There are those who believe if you dont oppose resistance bombings you are no longer Muslim. I dont really care about anyone else’s definitions.
Not sure what you’re referring to? Differences lie for example in religious justification for the killing of civilians. Religious justifications for the conditions in which militants can attack a Muslim country, and whether those are applicable in Pakistan. Differences about appropriate treatment of other sects/minorities in Pakistan.
even in west kids under18 dont to to normal jails.
Their name is not even released.
15-16 years old?? they are kids for cryin out loud.
There will be a time when west show them as what they are, mostly boy soldiers, like the ones in afreeka.
And again why cant we adopt west's idea in this case??? why not taking those young brainwashed kids out of exploitation and reprogram them to be normal.....
even though that is another debate. I don't care about the 15 year old suicide bombers. yes, if they are caught before they do the deed, try to reform them etc.
but I'm talking about the masterminds like Muslim Khan, Fazlullah, Baitullah Mehsud, Hakeemullah Mehsud who need to brought to justice for their numerous crimes. there is no reformation, no rehabilitation for them. they are not 15-16 years old. they are fully grown men plotting and executing terrorist plots in Pakistan. they need to executed.
they need to be brought to justice. though the two Mehsuds have already been sent to hell. but there are plenty others who need to be jahannum raseed as well. but most importantly there are terror apologists who live among the common people in Pakistan, enjoy the facilities of the state (no matter how meager) and yet their hearts beat with terrorists who are hell bent on destroying this country.
and I will say that our country is a very strong country. we are not Afghanistan. our army for all its faults is fully capable of destroying these terrorist rats. but the issue is people who have Pakistan passports, live among us and support/make excuses for the enemy. because of a lack of public support, for the longest time no concrete action could be taken against them. the JI types would be up in arms. but now that the public is suffering. the average man is being blown up, the vast majority of Pakistanis are backing the army to do the needful. but there are still some rats amongst us - some of who Mashallah post on this site. this is why I'm bringing this up.
and these people are never subjected to any kind of scrutiny. but the idiot - who dare say that niqaab is stupid or wearing shuttlecock burqas and making presentations with your ass facing the class because you don't want ghair mard to see your pari chehra is stupid - are always on trial. moderate this moderate that. liberal this liberal. I don't even care. call me kaafir for all I care. I'm not looking for a Muslim certificate. but this ulta chor kotwaal ko daantay badmaashi from the so-called real Muslims is retarded.
Even if,as a nation, we want to take over those young minds and reform them, Do we have tools to do that???
Dude we are missing many, many many things.
All we got is a F-in N-bomb,
I mean Are you kidding me???
Was that govt only responsibility to wards us???
You know i persnally felt like shyt, when ppl ,buried in ground, were calling out to be rescued, after that earthquake.
And we DID NOT have machinery to do that???
and they died. :hinna:
I mean why did we not die with shame???
I mean IF I was the President I would have exploded all n-bombs my self.. so we can focus our attention on real issues.
Having said that I think our common ppl have realised the explication of kids by taliban. Its pretty obvious looking at some music videos.
But saving ppl is just not our Govt’s character.
Its is our national character though… which I am very proud of.
