Since the cat fight closed the other thread while I was sleeping, I didn’t get a chance to respond to Fraudia.
Regarding the clarification on extremism. I personally find it annoying those people who say that they are Moderate Muslims or Conservative Muslims because the faith doesn’t change. Rather what changes is their political or socio-economic view points.
No Muslim accepts that a suicide bomber is a just act. Why? Suicide is haram in Islam. No changing that. It doesn’t mean you are a moderate Muslim or a Conservative one. Also is there a different form of namaz, zakat or code of conduct for liberal or moderate Muslims?
I agree it is a good deal of semantics but more importantly it unnecessary. Why must Muslims define themselves in terms which only appease the western crowd? The definition of extremism is normally someone who acts beyond the threshold. However religion, Islam and Christianity have very specific and well defined terms of what is acceptable and what is it. Very few people accept what Pat Robertson does is part of religion except his followers. Same with the Taliban. But people do not go out of their way saying they are moderate Christians just because what Pat Robertson has said.
In that way I believe the Westerns have a better and honest approach. They say I was raised catholic but I am agnostic. Like in the other original thread. There are some people who have been raised as Muslims but they are not. They are agnostic. They do not believe in religion but do believe in a supreme being.
The thing is, CM, that you are Mashallah a very strong person who can speak for himself and defend his points of view and your choice of words is also great... I, on the other hand, am a very easy target, anyone can attack me and accuse me of whatever they want and I'd just be sitting there crying just like I did last night... I still have a lot of growing up to do, and a lot of catching up to do on various things, especially on GS... I didn't mean anything wrong to anyone and yet I was made feel like I was the biatch for asking that question, when the sole intention was to learn. Discussions with yourself, X2 and stoppit were really worthwhile so thats one good thing that came out of it. Thanks for that.
Since the cat fight closed the other thread while I was sleeping, I didn't get a chance to respond to Fraudia.
Regarding the clarification on extremism. I personally find it annoying those people who say that they are Moderate Muslims or Conservative Muslims because the faith doesn't change. Rather what changes is their political or socio-economic view points.
No Muslim accepts that a suicide bomber is a just act. Why? Suicide is haram in Islam. No changing that. It doesn't mean you are a moderate Muslim or a Conservative one. Also is there a different form of namaz, zakat or code of conduct for liberal or moderate Muslims?
I agree it is a good deal of semantics but more importantly it unnecessary. Why must Muslims define themselves in terms which only appease the western crowd? The definition of extremism is normally someone who acts beyond the threshold. However religion, Islam and Christianity have very specific and well defined terms of what is acceptable and what is it. Very few people accept what Pat Robertson does is part of religion except his followers. Same with the Taliban. But people do not go out of their way saying they are moderate Christians just because what Pat Robertson has said.
In that way I believe the Westerns have a better and honest approach. They say I was raised catholic but I am agnostic. Like in the other original thread. There are some people who have been raised as Muslims but they are not. They are agnostic. They do not believe in religion but do believe in a supreme being.
Could not agree more.
Even young hindos for that matter. They openly say they dont believe in that "crap"
Nobody over the internet is worth thinking about in the real world. As the great Eleanor Roosevelt said nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent. And the only reason you got such abuse from those few was because they felt inadequate with the definition. Their way of life is not in conformity with Islam and what the religion states so they felt targeted. Not your fault. Rather theirs.
There are a good many people who say they are Muslim because they were raised in such an environment. But they really aren't.
Ok I wanted to comment on this, but thread was closed :@:
[quote]
Most of these people in my view point are ABCDs or a variety of that breed that wish to make themselves acceptable to their western friends. You are either a Muslim are you aren't. There are no two ways about it.
[/quote]
I wish what was the case.
But sadly more paki looking they are bigger act they put up to be invisible.
I mean you seek acceptance once/when you have back bone to present and accept what you are.
Sadly they haven't reached their yet.
When I first came here, my ABC friends told me
1-how to walk in public.(some what close to hiphop style)
2-how to sit.(some what close to hiphop style)
I found it very annoying. But I thought it was the culture in the west
TILL
One day I tool him to my boxing gym. And I was doing post work out stretches. Guy goes "what are you doing.. its weird... ppl will look at you"
I told him to shut up and I told him that was my domain.
But only then I figured out what was wrong with that ABCD generation.
Since the cat fight closed the other thread while I was sleeping, I didn't get a chance to respond to Fraudia.
Regarding the clarification on extremism. I personally find it annoying those people who say that they are Moderate Muslims or Conservative Muslims because the faith doesn't change. Rather what changes is their political or socio-economic view points.
No Muslim accepts that a suicide bomber is a just act. Why? Suicide is haram in Islam. No changing that. It doesn't mean you are a moderate Muslim or a Conservative one. Also is there a different form of namaz, zakat or code of conduct for liberal or moderate Muslims?
I agree it is a good deal of semantics but more importantly it unnecessary. Why must Muslims define themselves in terms which only appease the western crowd? The definition of extremism is normally someone who acts beyond the threshold. However religion, Islam and Christianity have very specific and well defined terms of what is acceptable and what is it. Very few people accept what Pat Robertson does is part of religion except his followers. Same with the Taliban. But people do not go out of their way saying they are moderate Christians just because what Pat Robertson has said.
In that way I believe the Westerns have a better and honest approach. They say I was raised catholic but I am agnostic. Like in the other original thread. There are some people who have been raised as Muslims but they are not. They are agnostic. They do not believe in religion but do believe in a supreme being.
agree with you other than the bolded part which I think is a little wishful thinking. a minority of Muslims does consider it to be justified. Either you are saying they are not Muslims, or you're just making a factually incorrect statement. Here in the UK look up statements by Anjem Choudary, leader of Al-Muhajiroun/Islam4UK.
forget about doing something because of the West. while the impulse to just stick with Muslim is good, it eliminates important religious differences that exist and that matter. if you wish to eliminate those differences changing your language wont do that. just saying there are no sects we're all Muslims wont change reality the next day. likewise, there are two real, physical groups that have a fundamental difference in religious belief in the Muslim world, whether you want to call it extremist / moderate or fringe / mainstream or whatever.
CM is pretty much repeating what a number of posters were saying in that thread anyway.
No Muslim accepts that a suicide bomber is a just act. Why? Suicide is haram in Islam. No changing that. It doesn't mean you are a moderate Muslim or a Conservative one. Also is there a different form of namaz, zakat or code of conduct for liberal or moderate Muslims?
I agree it is a good deal of semantics but more importantly it unnecessary. Why must Muslims define themselves in terms which only appease the western crowd?
Given this, what is the need for giving definition to the term 'moderate muslim'?
I still don't know of anyone personally who attributes themselves with these labels. I have never head anyone say 'I'm a moderate muslim' or 'I'm an extremist'. People simply believe themselves to a muslim (whether they commit minor or major sins is a different matter).
No one can say that someone else is not a muslim, regardless of their actions.
I find that people who feel the need for distinctive labels are those who are insecure in what they believe or who they are and want some kind of affirmation from others.
This is why non-muslims prefer to put us all in neat little boxes of 'liberal', 'moderate', 'extremist'; it makes their lives easier.
i think only spokespersons/PR folks would use the labels, otherwise people generally believe whatever they are to be Islam, thats only human nature.
Yes.. this is what posters were saying in the other thread. Therefore, one cannot give a 'muslim' oriented definition of what is a 'moderate mulsim' can they?
likewise, there are two real, physical groups that have a fundamental difference in religious belief in the Muslim world, whether you want to call it extremist / moderate or fringe / mainstream or whatever.
In my opinion, you cannot give them them any of these labels and doing so is dangerous.
it's interesting that it's always the so-called moderates who are always put on trial. but what about the opposite end of the spectrum? what about those who support Taliban and suicide bombings in Pakistan?
go read Pakistan Affairs. it is littered with worms (one of who has Mashallah posted in this thread) who believe that it is okay for a terrorist organization like TTP to kill and blow up Pakistani civilians, policemen and armymen because we "somehow asked for it" or because the killer looks like a moulvi. why don't these people have to defend themselves?
if I don't pray 50 times a day, it's my problem. it isn't going to affect you. if I don't fast, again my loss - not yours. if I don't pay zakaat, how does it affect the reasonably well off ppl on GS? all these acts of omission are my personal sins for which you are not answerable. but if you support killing innocents, well tomorrow a member of my family might become a victim of the terrorist that the "real" Muslims Mashallah support/defend/make excuses for.
the original thread was a case of ulta chor kotwaal ko daantay. people who should have to defend themselves and explain what they believe instead are on the offensive. kamaal dunya hay bhai.
meri jaan, i’m in this thread, just say my name. no need to hide it..
and if im right in saying that person you’re talking about is indeed me, i’d like you to point out a ANY of my post where i support the TTP and/or suicide bombings! You won’t be able to because I’ve never said such a thing. Good look finding it.
On the other hand I can right now point out where you said Islam is a dumb religion.
agree with you other than the bolded part which I think is a little wishful thinking. a minority of Muslims does consider it to be justified. Either you are saying they are not Muslims, or you're just making a factually incorrect statement. Here in the UK look up statements by Anjem Choudary, leader of Al-Muhajiroun/Islam4UK.
forget about doing something because of the West. while the impulse to just stick with Muslim is good, it eliminates important religious differences that exist and that matter. if you wish to eliminate those differences changing your language wont do that. just saying there are no sects we're all Muslims wont change reality the next day. likewise, there are two real, physical groups that have a fundamental difference in religious belief in the Muslim world, whether you want to call it extremist / moderate or fringe / mainstream or whatever.
And a number of people support Pat Robertson, Stormfront, the Neo-Nazis and so many more christian faith based racist military groups. That doesn't stop Christians from saying they are Christians and not allowing their faith to be ridiculed.
The subject matter is not that differences exist. They do. The subject is that those of you in the west tend to define yourselves in terms of "moderate Muslim" or "Liberal Muslim" when in actuality the faith is not changed. Only the political and socio-economic view points. So placing the misnomer of moderate or liberal is merely a method by which those who do so cloak themselves in false sense of reality and more importantly seem more acceptable to their Western counter-parts.
This is honestly more dangerous than the Taliban as people are dividing themselves on false premises and more importantly nothing that has to do with religion.
And samb you want start a thread on the crazies. By all means do so. Bad sadly you fall into the typical Pakistani retard mentality. "Oh look my guy is doing something bad......but lookie here he is doing something worse".
Sure if you don't pray, don't fast, don't pay zakat. Sure that doesn't affect us. But please don't insult us and Islam by calling yourself a Muslim.
yeah edit, I was talking about you. I’ve taken your name plenty of times. and here it is again. you yourself try to avoid me… hence, I was playing your game. before this I’ve always addressed you except for the one post above and am happy to do so in the future.
yeah go quote me. like I give edit, . I wouldn’t have posted that if I was so worried about someone like you quoting me.
as far as your support of TTP goes… you might not have come out in support openly like some of your esteemed fellow “real” Muslims. but whenever the TTP are discussed, when your ilk say things like - 1) well we asked for it by attacking them first… 2) oh they’re not our enemies… all we have to do is stop supporting Amreekans. 3) this is a conspiracy against Muslims 4) this is a result of drone attacks. or some retarded combination of the above bakwaas.
well guess what that is making excuses and worse indirectly defending attacks that cannot be defended… that is trying spread confusion over the issue. when anyone attacks organs of the state like armymen or police, there’s no excuse for it… absolutely no justification for it. doesn’t matter if Amreeka invaded Afghanistan. I don’t give edit, about it. it doesn’t give any retard moulvi like Muslim Khan, Fazlullah, Baitullah Mehsud, Hakimullah Mehsud the right to launch attacks in Pakistan on civilians, policemen or army.
now, come out and say you agree with that - without any ifs or buts. just say it. your iman won’t be lessened. none of your 72 virgins will be taken away. just say that terrorism by TTP, suicide bombings are inhumane, barbaric and crimes against humanity - no matter what is happening in Afghanistan, no matter what the Afghan Taliban or Amreekans are doing in Afghanistan… no excuses. no ifs, no buts. just a clear condemnation of TTP.
no need to hide it..