Re: “The line of control could fall like the Berlin Wall”
Haris Zuberi, I do not like the way Gupta has made provoking remarks. But, you being a moderator react as an ordinary participant looks awkward.
I can give you many examples when the armed forces and police behaved in an oppressive manner in public areas and as a result of the oppressions the people have migrated from the particular place or have run away towards some refugee camps.
Our armed soldiers in Kashmir are very cruel, rapists…..How many Muslims from Kashmir have migrated or run away to refugee camps? Can you inform me of any mass illegal birth rate in Kashmir?
Off course, ethnic Hindu Kashmiris have migrated from Kashmir; they did so to save their lives. You must know the reason.
(Ps, my reply does not mean that our soldiers in Kashmir are totally neat and clean)
Re: “The line of control could fall like the Berlin Wall”
well anjjan,
some things have to be answered in like terms. some members think it’s a joke coming here and saying whatever they feel like. well, thats not how things are. the PA forum is now targetting towards constructive discussions and when some participants have nothing to add but contradictions and propaganda, they have to be told that we cannot waste our time and energies and let this place be hijacked by fuss makers who leave no room for significant discussions.
so to counter the irresponsible behaviours, moderators too at times need to answer like other members. though i’m sure you’d agree I try keeping all sane as far as i could.
best :k:
Nearly 40,000 of India’s half a million troops in the disputed Kashmir region will be withdrawn to boost peace talks with Pakistan, a news report said. The report came four days after Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh ordered a reduction of troops in the Indian-controlled portion of Kashmir, though he did not disclose how many forces would be cut. India’s army is likely to withdraw two mountain divisions each with 10,000 soldiers, plus nearly 20,000 of the 50,000 soldiers of counterinsurgency force the Rashtriya Rifles, The Pioneer newspaper reported.
Kashmir is a flashpoint for hostilities between nuclear-armed India and Pakistan. They have fought two wars over the region, which is divided between them, but claimed by both in its entirety. A reduction in troop numbers would be a significant step toward reducing tension. The proposed troop cutback appeared to be a response to Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf’s call last month for flexibility over the Kashmir dispute, and his proposal to demilitarise the territory. Singh’s announcement on Thursday came ahead of his visit to the Indian portion of Kashmir this week. The prime minister said a decline in separatist violence had prompted the proposed withdrawal. But he warned he would redeploy soldiers if rebel attacks increased.
Re: “The line of control could fall like the Berlin Wall”
Haris Zuberi, you are right. It is very common to fall into the trap.
Though the point remains if Indian soldiers are really cruel and rapists in Kashmir?
And if so, why the outcome is not the same as it happened during Bangladesh movement….mass migration, mass illegal birth rate?
During upheavals in Afghanistan thousands of Afghanis took shelter in Pakistan.
During Kosovo problem, Muslims took refuge in other countries.
Kurds have run away from Iraq……I think its enough.
But the picture in Kashmir is different.
Yes, Ethnic Hindu Kashmiris have migrated. Some freedom fighters (? ) did not like them.
(Ps, my questioning does not mean that our soldiers are neat and clean in Kashmir.)
India said yesterday it was open to a new round of talks to try and resolve differences with Pakistan over the construction of a hydroelectric dam in the disputed state of Kashmir. Pakistan asked the World Bank to intervene in a simmering dispute over the Baghilar Dam which India is building in Indian Kashmir after talks over the project between the two countries collapsed in January last year. Islamabad says the dam violates a 1960 water-sharing treaty, which bars India from interfering with the flow of the three rivers feeding Pakistan – the Indus, the Chenab and the Jhelum – but which allows it to generate electricity from them. The treaty, brokered by the World Bank, is one of the South Asian foes’ most enduring agreements and has survived two wars between them.
Indian Foreign Secretary Shyam Saran said Prime Minister Manmohan Singh had told visiting Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf that New Delhi wanted more discussions on the dam project to assure Islamabad that water supplies would not be cut. “Prime Minister Singh sought to allay Islamabad’s apprehensions on the issue and unequivocally stated India’s commitment to abide by the parameters laid down by the 1960 treaty in letter and spirit,” Saran told reporters. “There is a readiness to engage in further technical discussions on this issue to try and resolve it. We are prepared to do that. The Pakistan President was thankful for the assurances,” he added. The World Bank announced in February this year that it would appoint a “neutral expert” to arbitrate in the row after it was approached by Pakistan.
India says it is building the dam to provide badly needed power to the part of Kashmir it administers. Meanwhile, India yesterday released 156 Pakistan fishermen jailed in the western state of Gujarat as a humanitarian gesture during a visit by Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf. The fishermen, arrested during the past year for illegally fishing in Indian territorial waters of the Arabian Sea, are being taken to the only land-border crossing between the two countries at Wagah in India’s Punjab state, police said. They are expected to cross into Pakistan Monday, said Manoj Shashidhar, superintendent of police in the Gujarat city of Jamnagar.
Re: "The line of control could fall like the Berlin Wall"
well anjjan, what can i say? why do the ppl turn into deadly weapons and become fighters instead of living in peace with their families and having children and grand childredn and loads of happiness like ppl in other parts of the countries...? why have they given up all their lives, more than 3 generations for this cause...? what is this 'cause'? certainly it must not be just a few thousnad miles of lush green territory and land...it's more about freedom, not materialism, it's more baout revenge now perhaps...why else would they die and make others die...? somethig must have been wrong all along? what is it...?
Re: "The line of control could fall like the Berlin Wall"
No Haris, you answer cannot convince anyone. When I say that people take refuge in other areas, off course not all of them escape.
I talk whatever is the outcome of atrocities in general, re east Pajkistan, Kurds etc. Kashmiris cannot be an exceptional case.
I pick up some other points,
You cannot tell me why ethnic Hindu Kashmiris had to leave their ancestral homes?
When your freedom fighters give a call of Kashmir Bandh….it is voluntary or obligatory? What will happen to the person and his family if someone disobeys them?
I can confirm you that your all propaganda about Kashmir has no logic. It is a challenge.
India, Pakistan Agree to Work for Kashmir Settlement
Pakistan’s President Pervez Musharraf and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh agreed to work for a final settlement on Kashmir, saying the peace process between the two countries is irreversible.'' The two leaders had substantive talks on all issues,‘’ according to a joint statement issued today in New Delhi after Musharraf’s three-day visit to India. They determined that the peace process was now irreversible.'' Talks on resolving the Kashmir dispute will continue in a sincere, purposeful and forward-looking manner for a final settlement,‘’ it said.
Kashmir, a Himalayan region divided between India and Pakistan since 1947 and claimed in full by both, is at the heart of the 58-year-dispute between the nuclear-armed neighbors. Musharraf’s last talks in India in 2001 ended in deadlock over the issue and the two countries came close to a fourth war in 2002. They have been seeking to repair ties since 2003 and the first bus service linking the two areas of Kashmir began 11 days ago, reuniting families separated for more than half a century. Musharraf, who was born in India, and Singh, born in what is now Pakistan, agreed to spur business ties and cross-border travel and increase cooperation in the search for energy to fuel their expanding economies. India’s and Pakistan’s energy ministers will meet in May for talks on a proposed pipeline to bring gas from Iran or Turkmenistan to India via Pakistan, according to the statement, read aloud by Singh next to Musharraf.
The first thing the ‘freedom fighters’ did was to attack Kashmiri Hindus and now most of them are out of the valley. Then they say it is a fight for all Kashmiris against India.
Re: “The line of control could fall like the Berlin Wall”
this congress government has sold out the kashmiri pandits! Why no mention of the terrorism committed against them? why no mention of allowing them to return to kashmir like all these people from POK who are visting?
Re: "The line of control could fall like the Berlin Wall"
anjjan certainly my answer or that of anyone else wouldnt satisfy anyone who has made up his mind to close eyes to what millions of ppl have been trying to make the world notice...all of a sudden Hindu kashmiris come up. what they did or didnt do would be diff because the problems in Kashmir are against Muslim Kashmiris who are oppressed for reasons written down in history. hindu kashmiris' being oppressed hasnt created any waves, it surely isnt a concern, because if it happens, it has must be rare. from your viewpoint it all will be a propaganda, always has been. and yet thousands die every year...why...?
I'm just glad the new govts are atleast trying to think openly. on both sides.
Re: “The line of control could fall like the Berlin Wall”
Yes Haris, you have no answer to any of my very simple questions?
1…Our armed soldiers in Kashmir are very cruel, rapists…..How many Muslims from Kashmir have migrated or run away to refugee camps? Can you inform me of any mass illegal birth rate in Kashmir?
2…You cannot tell me why ethnic Hindu Kashmiris had to leave their ancestral homes? Problem is against Muslim Kashmiris. And for that reason Hindus were given three options
Leave Kashmir in three days.
Accept Islam.
Face death.
Do you call it Freedom struggle?
3…When your freedom fighters give a call of Kashmir Bandh….it is voluntary or obligatory? What will happen to the person and his family if someone disobeys them?
Now I come to your (fourth) point…thousands have been killed, yes it is the saddest part of the conflict.
But you first of all tell me the figure of the dead…..because your Gopvt propaganda has confused every one.
For last many years, I think for last eight years you propagate the figures of the dead…70000, no plus, no minus.
Is not it very strange?
Propaganda in the world,….the most solid point in your favor…..how much these western propagandists are near to the truth? When it comes to their head they change their tone, as it happened in 9/11 case.
When a lie is repeated thousand times it look likes a truth. Your propaganda forces have taken enough advantage of this psyche.
(Frankly, I do not support our State activities in Kashmir. I want to know the truth.)
Re: “The line of control could fall like the Berlin Wall”
There were 5 points specifically dedicated to the Kashmir issue in the joint declaration, but not one of them talked about the issue of these Hindu Kashmiri’s. They are a non-issue for Pakistan, and obviously something that India does not want to talk about, or has conceded on?
Re: "The line of control could fall like the Berlin Wall"
my dear.. the kashmiri hindus may not be a problem for Pakistan. They are only worried about the muslim brothers right. How can u be so cruel. Be it any religion, human beings have the same emotions. They wont be a better person if they become hindu or muslim or christian. If that was the case the whole world would have been such a nice place to live in. The Christian countries were fighting among each other for centuries. The muslim sansanat was also doing the same. Even brothers were fighting each other. And before Hindus were also fighting.
Get out of ur religious mind set and think that all people are equal. It hurts in the same way if u pierce a muslim heart or a hindu heart. Have some compassion for fellowbeings and not on the basis of their religion.
What do u want guys. U want Kashmir..and then would u allow Indians to become a Hindu republic just like Pakistan is a Islamic republic. Do u want to treat muslims in India seperately. Can we give them fixed seats in parliament and only allowed the muslims in India to vote on religious basis. Then would we allow extremist like the MMA in pakistan (aka VHP and BajrangDal) to run away with the country. To instigate violence.
What will be the result. What could be the result. Communal violence. Gujarat causes around 3000 deaths. But would be in millions if all hindus decided that they move away from their secular trait. Do pakistani people want that to happen in India. It will be genocide.
Re: “The line of control could fall like the Berlin Wall”
i have to agree with this paper.
Have the Indian political leadership and policy-makers been infected with a national Stockholm Syndrome as a result of nearly 25 years of relentless acts of terrorism sponsored by Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence, which have killed thousands of innocent civilians all over the country and continue to kill many more? Has terrorism fatigue induced us to start viewing the sponsor of terrorism, responsible for so many deaths, as our objective ally in the march on the road to peace and progress?
Re: "The line of control could fall like the Berlin Wall"
thanks homer, and youre right Reza, if it were such a phenomenon as anjjan is making it all of a sudden just to divert from the real issue at hand for both countries to talk on, wouldnt the countries, or atleast india, be making a deal out of it already like anjjan is?
and anjjan,
sure i dont have answers to baseless things. if you can bring some actual occurences supporting your now cliched points 1,2,3,4...it might make it easy for us to tackle the argument, which from your side is simply denying what has been happening, and making a fuss over a nonexistant phenomenon, a non issue...
the truth is out there, seek and find. but the key to is to accept it and be ready to correct and learn not just deny...
btw, what is this illegal birth rate youre talking about? in countries where there hasnt been proper census for years, do you expect women to go to police stations in their locality and get their illegitimate births registered for media to have statistics to argue over...? and not all rapes end in conception. and it isnt just rapes that happen...
and why have a few UN teams going into occupied Kashmir in the past been barred from going in and finding out and seeing for their selves what happens there? why were they held back by inidan officials...?
Re: “The line of control could fall like the Berlin Wall”
Haha, you Indian rejectionists are just too funny. Next you will comparing Manmahon Singh to Patty Hearst, the kidnapped heiress who ended up joining her captors.