The Khilafah is the only hope for the muslims...

Society Religion & Philosophy
141

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
I gave you a perfect example of Swaps as trading intruments that your khilafah can't handle because the quran is shorsighted in understanding interest as a trading instrument. Either rewrite it, ask your moulvi for a response or admit it that the quranic law is made for the 7th century.

Put up or shut up.....
[/QUOTE]

Your lack of understanding of the Islamic vision and economic system of Islam is evident. Interest based trading is not the only method of attaining profit. Islam has laid down different company stuctures which are very different to the western structures, and it has laid down detailed rules of the relationship between the parties involved in the partnership.

Also the currency of the Islamic system is not the same as the west as it is based on the gold currency which was initially abandoned by the initiation of a new economic system by the west. the muslim world has plenty of resources which the west rely upon and so the islamic state would not trade with the west unless they pay in gold. This would force the US to aknowledge the existence of an entirely new economic system and that would shape the future of trade relationships between nations. after all, all the muslims need to do, is turn the taps of oil off and you see the colapse of western economy. This dire situation would force the west to trade in the way the Islamic system advocates. This is just one example, of how the khilafah state could initiate change.

142

Khilafah jaani: it is you who does't get it. The financial system proposed under your khilafah is outdated, a simple example was given of Swaps...I haven't even mentioned secondary and tertiary derivaive rading insruments. Where god has not clue how to deal with it.

As far as your comment about muslims not selling any oil...this has got to be the funniest thing in the world. What the hell are they going to do? Drink it? Look at the industrial levels of the muslim countries...no indigenous echnologiocal improvements...where is his demand to generate revenue come from? Let me tell you where....The KAFFIRS....INdia and China along with the west whose system you hate.

Remember camels don't need gas...

ANd Islmic state has no choice but to trade wih the west. If I recite the collective econoic indicators of arab/islamic countries their rivals would be power houses like spain or Belgium. Long way to go before you can start dictating terms of trade.

143

I have not gone through the entire 147 responses, however to me it seems very unislamic that a certain organization has devoted all its energies to establishing the khilafah. Which points to the simple fact that this organization is a)either looking for power b)is very unrealistic in its approach (i.e. if muslims are divided in their fundamentals it is very unlikely they will ever gather under the single banner) c)is hoping for a miracle or is imagining a mirage.. you know 'duur ke dhol suhaney'.

To me it seems like its most probably #b.

hence the first effort should be given to educating ourselves and our families and guiding them towards the truth so that once our fundamentals are clear, we will be able to gather under a single leadership.

The quran says on numerous occasions to judge by Allah, however this order is for the leaders and not for the commonfolk (to the best of my knowledge and allahu alim), ON THE OTHER HAND, we are instructed on numerous occasions to save ourselves and our families from the hellfire etc. Hence our priorities should be going to earning the pleasure of Allah whether or not we are under a khilafah.

Matsui, you seem to completely miss a very fundamental point when you talk to muslims. The goal for a muslim government is only to rule by Allah. This government is not run by the people, it is run by Allah's laws. I can see it is a difficult concept for you, but we place divine law above all. This is our belief. you can mock it, and find weaknesses in it for all we care, it doesn't change jack.

you could on the other hand argue over its implementation, but if you start off "educating muslims" by telling them to reject divine law then you are wasting time.

If you argue with muslims you MUST learn to respect their faith first which says divine law stands above all. When you have that respect, then you can move onto the next point about how this muslim nation will deal with other nations around the globe.

144

Ammar hat is the basic poin innit. You can shout till your heart's content that god's law is the way. But the question arises, if god's law is wrong, then is god wrong or did god never really write the law but was the inspiration for the writer. Look at it from that perspective, there was a good discussion a year or so agao on Blind Faith vs. Spiritualism. Dig it up. Whether a lhilafah is the answer, will be answered.

Secondly, in the world we live in, anytime god's law singles out others for their non-belief in that god's law is a cause for alarm. God is inclusionary not exclusionary.

145

Again matsui that is YOUR belief and you are free to hold onto it with all your strength.

See, let me lay out the thought process for you:
God can not be wrong, we can easily be. Thats the whole concept of God.

"anytime god's law singles out others for their non-belief in that god's law is a cause for alarm".. what????

I see that the basic problem that you have is with accepting the muslim faith. Actually you have trouble accepting faith itself. Then we are simply talking from two completely separate angles. You cant accept what faith is, we, on the other hand believe faith comes first and THEN the rest of the things fall into place.

so what really are you expecting from this discussion?

146

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
Khilafah jaani: it is you who does't get it. The financial system proposed under your khilafah is outdated, a simple example was given of Swaps...I haven't even mentioned secondary and tertiary derivaive rading insruments. Where god has not clue how to deal with it.

As far as your comment about muslims not selling any oil...this has got to be the funniest thing in the world. What the hell are they going to do? Drink it? Look at the industrial levels of the muslim countries...no indigenous echnologiocal improvements...where is his demand to generate revenue come from? Let me tell you where....The KAFFIRS....INdia and China along with the west whose system you hate.

Remember camels don't need gas...

ANd Islmic state has no choice but to trade wih the west. If I recite the collective econoic indicators of arab/islamic countries their rivals would be power houses like spain or Belgium. Long way to go before you can start dictating terms of trade.
[/QUOTE]

When i refer to the west i do not mean all wastern countries as some are neutral. In fact the Islamic state will trade with western countries but not those who have waged war upon the muslims ie USA and britain but countries like China and japan and many others, the state would maintain good trade relationships and even buy machinery that would enable the state to become self dependant. So the khilafah state would not be an isolationist state rather it would be one that continously interacts with other nations

147

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ammarr: *
I have not gone through the entire 147 responses, however to me it seems very unislamic that a certain organization has devoted all its energies to establishing the khilafah. Which points to the simple fact that this organization is a)either looking for power b)is very unrealistic in its approach (i.e. if muslims are divided in their fundamentals it is very unlikely they will ever gather under the single banner) c)is hoping for a miracle or is imagining a mirage.. you know 'duur ke dhol suhaney'.

To me it seems like its most probably #b.

hence the first effort should be given to educating ourselves and our families and guiding them towards the truth so that once our fundamentals are clear, we will be able to gather under a single leadership.

The quran says on numerous occasions to judge by Allah, however this order is for the leaders and not for the commonfolk (to the best of my knowledge and allahu alim), ON THE OTHER HAND, we are instructed on numerous occasions to save ourselves and our families from the hellfire etc. Hence our priorities should be going to earning the pleasure of Allah whether or not we are under a khilafah.

Matsui, you seem to completely miss a very fundamental point when you talk to muslims. The goal for a muslim government is only to rule by Allah. This government is not run by the people, it is run by Allah's laws. I can see it is a difficult concept for you, but we place divine law above all. This is our belief. you can mock it, and find weaknesses in it for all we care, it doesn't change jack.

you could on the other hand argue over its implementation, but if you start off "educating muslims" by telling them to reject divine law then you are wasting time.

If you argue with muslims you MUST learn to respect their faith first which says divine law stands above all. When you have that respect, then you can move onto the next point about how this muslim nation will deal with other nations around the globe.
[/QUOTE]

Assalamo alaikum brother ammar

The call to re-establish Islam in all lifes affairs cannot be an unislamic one as it is based on Islamic evidences. The evidence for this work is mentioned in many ayahs and many ahadith but for the sake of being brief i will mention the ayah in surah al maidah versde 44 " whosoever does not rule by whatever Allah has revealed they are of the disbelievers".

The word "man" means whosoever, so this ayah is applicable to everyone and is not restricted to the rulers. So this ayah establishes the fard to rule by what Allah (swt) revealed and in our time it does not exist. So it would necesitate the existance of that entity that would rule by the Islamic shariah.

The call for khilafah is not a dream nor a figment of the imagination as it was foretold by our beloved Prophet in various hadith that the khilafah would return and the ummah is now rallying around Islam to get her out of the ditch that she is in.

As for looking for power, then it is not power for an organisation but power for Islam. Not only that, but if someone from another organisation is appointed khaleefah then we hear and obey him as he rules by the rules of Islam and even if we difered with him but he had islamic evidences for his views (even if they were week) we would give our baiyah to him and protect his khilafah.

As for the lack of education of Islam within our families, this is a great obligation that we need to carry out immediately while at the same time working on other obligations simultaneously.

148

.

149

:konfused:

Khilafah Bravo elaborate please!

150

khilafah

walikumsalam warehmatullah.

yes, it is indeed a duty of a muslim jamaa'ah to work for the establishment of a muslim rule or a khilafah, nobody is doubting that. But to create a seperate group and to make it a life purpose is incorrect and allahu alim.

a single organization such as hizb ut tehreer will never be able to establish khilafah the way it is going. infact the first step is tarbiyah and the spreading of islamic knowledge amongst people.. if we pick up the quran and read, or prophetic ahadith etc, we will notice that:

an ordinary muslim is commanded with day to day tasks such as prayers, fasting, helping out the family, having fear of Allah etc etc.

Now if a single person is not following these simple orders, how do we expect this person to help establish the khilafah, infact this person will never be motivated to work for khilafah (which comes at a much later stage and the above mentioned duties are primary duties)

so in order of priority, instead of making a hizb amongst the muslims and making khilafah the goal, we have to first educate the general public to the extent where they can themselves stand up for khilafah. From where i am, i can never see any of these hizbs getting anywhere. what do you say?

wassalam :)

151

Thinking (at-tafkeer)

Assalamu alaikum,

Could the poster of this claim please provide a reference to the book which is mentionned here, so that we can investigate it? Hizb ut-Tahrir has published an English translation of the book called at-Tafkeer which was written in Arabic in 1973. You can download the English book and confirm that it has 61 pages, and is called “Thinking (at-tafkeer)” not “Kitab At-Takfir”. So I am not sure that this is the same book.

I also checked the original website which made this claim against the Hizb but I was not able to find any online reference which I could use to confirm the claim.

Wa salam.

152

Assalamu alaikum,

Here we have a “chicken/egg - which came first?” situation. The masses are not practising Islam, so they are not ready for Khilafah… But the masses will not be practising Islam until there is Khilafah.

Throughout the Muslims lands the rulers are arresting, torturing, killing countless numbers of Islamic scholars for the crime that they spoke about Islam in it’s completeness, as ordered by Allah (swt). The rulers are closing down Islamic schools, banning Islamic curricula and imposing secular curricula imported from directly from the West. Those who want to come closer to Islam and make the dawah to the rest of the Ummah are intentionally shown barriers and obstacles. How will the masses come to Islam if the rulers do not encourage them. If the rulers make it difficult for them. If the rulers threaten them.

This is similar to the situation in Mecca where the masses did not accept Islam openly despite the Prophet (saw) being amongst them, and the truth was plain to see. The rulers at that time worked tirelessly to silence the dawah to Islam. It was only when the Prophet (saw) came back in the role of political leader did the people accept in masses.

So today if we expect the people to come to Islam in masses while Islam is being suppressed, is this a realistic expectation? Is it an Islamic expectation?

Remember Surah Al-Nasar:

“When the victory granted by Allah and the Conquest come, and you see people embracing the religion of Allah in large numbers, then celebrate the praises of your Lord, and seek His forgiveness. He is ever disposed to Mercy.”

Ibn Katheer’s commentary:
“The Conquest’, it is unanimously agreed, is a reference to the conquest of Makka. The Arab tribes were awaiting the settlement of the conflict between Quraish and the Muslims, before accepting Islam, saying: ‘If he, Muhammad, prevails over his people, he would indeed be a prophet.’ Consequently, when that was accomplished they accepted Islam in large numbers. Not two years were to pass after the conquest of Makka when the whole Arabian Peninsula was dominated by Islam, and, all thanks to Allah, every Arab tribe had declared its belief Islam.”
(Emphasis mine)

Wa salam.

153

Re: Thinking (at-tafkeer)

I dont know whether you’re from Hizbut-Tahrir or not-but I’ve debated with a few of them [Mashallah some nice guys]-and it seems some of them gave up on the Muslims in our college. Because one of them was a friend of someone-so he came to our college to discuss these issues-and tried to influence us, but we kept on challenging the points, and I guess he couldn’t answer our questions, or change our minds so he left us.

The leaflets Hizbut-Tahrir produce are nice..and the magazine..but that aint gonna get the Khilafah back. You have to be realistic.

154

Yeh thats what i want to know too. If the masses are not practising islam, how do you plan to get khilafah back anyway?

155

Assalamu alaikum,

Out of interest, what was it that he could not convince you of?

Many people think they know the method of the Hizb. But when I ask them what is the method of the Hizb, they cannot answer it fully i.e. they cannot give a complete answer. Meaning that they know only one small part of the method, one piece of the jigsaw.

Clearly we cannot assess the whole by looking at only a part.

There is a book titled “The Method to Re-Establish the Khilafah” which was produced in August 2000. It starts with a refutation of incorrect methods e.g. jihad, participation in kufr politics, etc. and proceeds to outlining the method of the Prophet (saw) followed by the method of the Hizb based on that. I recommend that book. I cannot find it online, so
in the meantime here is a link which is related to this. If anyone would like me to send them a copy please contact me privately.

Wa salam.

156

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ISOrg: *
Assalamu alaikum,

Out of interest, what was it that he could not convince you of?

Many people think they know the method of the Hizb. But when I ask them what is the method of the Hizb, they cannot answer it fully i.e. they cannot give a complete answer. Meaning that they know only one small part of the method, one piece of the jigsaw.

Wa salam.
[/QUOTE]

Man HT have been around here for 50 Years..yet have achieved nothing big for the Ummah. Rather with their money..they should be doing something else.

I agreed with the points he said i.e. bringing a Khilafah..and having islamic governments, and no borders, but I dont know how leaflets are gonna bring about that change [Mashallah that's good Dawah but it doesn't bring a Khilafah].

Also how come HT guys dont have proper beards? [Sorry out of curiosity]

157

Assalamu alaikum,

[quote]
HT have been around here for 50 Years..yet have achieved nothing big for the Ummah.
[/quote]

(1) It depends how you measure achievement. By many standards the Prophet (saw) achieved little in 10 years in Mecca.

(2) If you are following the correct method, then you must stick to it. Even if the results are not apparant. The success/failure is from Allah (swt) alone.

[quote]
but I dont know how leaflets are gonna bring about that change
[/quote]

Maybe the links I provided will give you more information. Leaflets are a style of dawah which are used to achieve an objective according to the method for change. They are a link in the chain. A piece of the jigsaw. They are not the whole method. Noone is saying distribute leaflets all day and that itself will create an Islamic State. Maybe that is one of the most visible aspects of the work, and so people think that is all there is. It is not.

There are many aspects to the method of the Prophet (saw) which were done in private, out of the public view. The Prophet (saw) went with Abu Bakr alone to meet the leaders of various tribes to seek nusrah. The people at large were not aware that this was happening. This is the same for the Hizb today.

[quote]
how come HT guys dont have proper beards?
[/quote]

They have beards according to the madhab the individual follows. E.g. the one who follows Imam Abu Hanifa's madhab has the beard as specified in that, while the one who follows the madhab of Imam Shafi has the beard as specified there.

Wa salam.

158

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Khilafah1422: *

I dont think thats ridiculous at all. The reason why you might think that is because you view it from the angle of equality where you try to give the role of the man to the women and the role of the women to man.

Man and women are definately equal before Allah (swt) but that does not mean that they have the same duties. The women gives the child birth and instinctively worries about her child. In Islam the original role of the mother is the child bearer. Although that does not mean that she cant work because by Islam she is permitted to do that.

man has other responsibilities which Allah gave to him. Western equality might go to the extremes where they might ask the man to have inserted an egg for fertilisation in his body and they might even ask for a change in the organ structure in his body.

Why should women give birth only heh, what about men.

Matsui because you are not a muslim you will never understand the mind and heart of a muslim because we muslims hear what Allah says and then obey. Your statements ridiculing Islam have no effect upon the muslim and will not cause us to be embarrased of the laws of Islam.

there are so many rules which we dont know the justification of eg. praying 5 times a day, going to hajj, abstaining from interest based transactions and having good morals.

The western frame of thinking has caused misery to the world which the glitz and glamour of scientific advancement cannot hide. The limited and weak mind of man is influenced by his environment and is incapable of knowing everything and hence should not be the basis for legislation (making laws).

In the west homosexuality was forfidden about 50 years ago where the homo would be severly punished. 50 years down the line it now has become a trend and laws have been enacted protecting and giving equal rights to them.

What will be next, the legalisation for the allowance of paedophilia. there are already pro paedophilia groups in the USA lobbying for thier rights. It's not to far when the weak, limited mind of man permits these kinds of people to have thier freedom
[/QUOTE]

Khilafah1422

Why can't one follow the law of Mohammad yet live in a secular society?

159

Assalam Alaikum Brother,

The difference is we have fully recieved revelation-and we have the Qur’an in it’s full entirety. In the first 10 years of the Prophet peace be upon him’s prophethood, the Qur’an wasn’t revealed in full, and therefore some orders became new-for them after 10 years-but the difference is we’ve got the Qur’an in FULL.

And I agree if you are using the correct method-you must stick with it.

What have HT done to actually defend Muslim lands? Such as Afghanistan, Palestine, Chechnya?

What do you have to say about the following website?

HT-exposed

160

Regarding HT - It is a party founded by Taqiyyud-deen an Nabhaanee. As for this party - then we have a number of observation s to make about it:

  1. That they do not accept “Khabarul-Aahaad” in 'Aqeedah and this has caused them to separate from Ahlus-Sunnah in 'Aqeedah since accepting the ahaadeeth is an important principle - so they do not accept the Messengers (sas) sayings in points of 'Aqeedah. So they do not believe for example, in the punishment in the grave, they do not believe in the Dajjal and they do not believe in the descent of the Maseh - and they do not believe in many things which are mentioned in hadeeth. And this is of course, something futilie since authentic aahaad ahadeeth which are those reported by good / reliable, precise narrators from the first to the last of them - not contradicting something more reliable - and not contain hidden weakness and the hadeeth which fulfill these five conditions amounts to knowledge whereas they say that it amounts only to conjecture (zann) - and the reply to them in detail is to be found in my book: “al-adillah wash-Shawaahid fee wujoob al-Akhdh bikhabral-waahid fil Ahkaam wal 'Aqaaid”, where I mention their evidences from their book “ad-Doosiyyah” and I have replied to them in detail, so he who wishes to go into depth then let him refer back to that book, which I ask Allaah to make of benefit to the Muslims.

  2. This party accuses Ahlus-Sunnah of being Jabariyyah as they plainly state in their book “ad-Doosiyyah” so they say with regards to the matter of Qadaa and Qadr: “…so if we look to Ahlus-Sunna - who think that they have come out in their view from between dung and blood then they are Jabariyyah.” Then this is ignorance of this important part of 'Aqeedah since Ahlus-Sunna wal-Jamaa’ah affirm what Allah has affirmed and deny what Allah has denied. they affirm that the servant has free-will - except that it is not but by the will of Allah - the most Perfect and free from defects, and the Most high, and there are great proofs of this - and we have mentioned some of them in out reply to them in out book: “al-Jamaa’aatul-Islaamiyyah.”

  3. Also this party has various peculiar opinions - so for example they allow nude photographs, they allow one to look at photographs and this contains great danger due to a Sharee’ah point then it is the Prophet’s (sas) saying: “let not a woman describe another woman to her husband - as if he were looking at her.” So his (sas) saying: “…as if he were looking at her” - he is not actually looking at her, but a description of her is brought into his mind so the forbiddance is from this imaginary picture - so how is it then if the picture is physically in front of one looking at it?! - showing her attractions and her body - indeed revealing her 'awrah - is this not even more forbidden? Secondly, this picture even if it does not move or feel - yet it is a real picture - and nudity is something haraam - so how can we allow looking at this thing which is haraam?

Further, looking at this picture incites the animal instincts in a person and the ‘shaytaanic tendencies’ - so that which leads to haraam is itself haraam. Indeed the matter has gone beyond bounds with them - to the extent that they allow kissing a (strange) woman, and this is something dangerous.

  1. What is more dangerous is that they have turned all their attention to accusing the rulers. ‘this one is an American (stooge), this one is a British (stooge)’ - as if there were no-one else in the worlds except America and Britain and as if it were America and Britain who were running the affairs of creation. And this causes people to turn away from the correct understanding of their Deen and away from Allah’s way of changing the affairs. They think that if they change the ruler they will attain what they desire - and this is contrary to the natural way laid down by Allah with reagrd to changes which come bout amongst the creation: Verily never will Allah change a condition of a people until they change what is within their souls [Ra’d 13:11]

And is we imagine that the ruler would change - whilst the nation do not believe in this Deen - then what would happen is that these people will cause a revolution as had happened, for example lately in Russia - this state was established by force and through tyranny and through suppressing the voice of the people through killing - so we find that he people did not support it, but rather opposed it. And for Allah’s laws to be enforced throughout throughout this earth - they have to be carried / defended by the Believers - He it is that has strengthened you with His aid and with the Believers. [Anfaal 8:62]

So we don’t wait for the east or the west to help the Deen, but its own people have to be its carriers - they are the ones to carry and defend the Deen.

This is a brief description of HT - and of course they debate about Allah without knowledge, without Guidance, without Book and without Light - and we have sat with them often - and one we mentioned to one of them whilst discussing the ‘Khabarul-Aahaad’, we said: If it appears to you that the truth is that it is obligatory to accept the Khabarul-Aahaad - then will you do so? he said ‘No, because I have to stick to the view of the party.’ So they make it binding that if the view of the party contradicts your view - you have to hold the view of the party, not your own view. So we said: Then what is the point of discussing with you - if you will not give up the view of the party in favour of the clear proof. Since they have laid down a rule - that the person has to stick to the opinion of his imaam or his nation. Well what if that involves some sin, since that ruler, khaleefah or group may be right or wrong - so if a mistake is made then how can he still hold to that knowing that is is haraam.

Imagine, for example, that the ruler is a Hanafee who holds that drinking little alcohol - an amount nut sufficient to intoxicate is allowed but that which is forbidden is the final cup which intoxicates. Then does a person in this case have to hold to the opinion of his imaam? Or if his imaam, for example, holds the saying that the Quraan is created - as happened to Imaam Ahmad - then does he have to take on his view - and the practise of the salaf is contrary to this.

This is a brief account of HT - and HT do not follow Islaam but only support the idea of Islaam and they have wierd (and incorrect) opinions - for example, they do not order their wives to dress Islamically, since they say that men do not have any authority over women until the Khilaafah has been established - and of course this is contrary to the laws of Allah - subhaanahu wa ta’aalaa - in that the man has to strive to save his family from the Fire: O you who believe, save yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is men and stones. [Tahreem 66:6]

This is from the site mentioned by Majid007!
these r quite straight forward points; I still would agree with HT’s stand on point 4 but on the rest… :konfused: