The Infinite Loop of the Rafida

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Assalamu 'ala man itaba’a Al-Houda,

after enjoying a few debates with the Rafida that pretty much annihilated them on shiachat, which made them finally to loose their temper and suspend me, I wanted to share this small paragraph with the members here that even after getting posted again and again was not replied to on the largest Rafidi board!

**…How strange that there is still no reply to the question where the Shiites take their religion from if the Quraan was transmitted by Kuffar, Liars, Munafiqeen, Murderers etc.. Furthermore don’t forget that it can only be understood by the Aimmah. Yet in order to find out the authenticity of narrations the Shia claim that we have to compare them with the Quraan which unfortunately can only be understood by the Aimmah themselves.

WELCOME TO THE SHIITES’ INFINITE LOOP!

Not to forget that the statements of the Aimmah are only found in books filled with lies according to your own scholars and moreover the narrators of these narrations were the same who transmitted those narrations about the MANIPULATION of the Quraan which is why your “great” scholars called the belief in the MANIPULATION of the Quraan a NESSECITY and pointed out that the belief in the narration about the Imaaamat requires belief in the narrations about the MANIPULATION. So either you believe in the Imaamat or in the completeness of the Quraan **

wa salamu 'ala man itaba’a Al-Houda

2

[quote]
How strange that there is still no reply to the question where the Shiites take their religion from if the Quraan was transmitted by Kuffar, Liars, Munafiqeen, Murderers etc..
[/quote]

Can you elaborate?

Shias got their religion from Ahle Bait, while Ahle Sunnat got their religion from outsiders.

Ahle Bait are the ones for whom Prophet said "I am leaving behind you two weighty things, Quran and Ahle Bait. Don't leave any of them or you will go astray."

How unfortunate that Bukhari quote about 15% ahadith from Abu Huraira and 2%-3% from Ahle Bait.

3

Assalamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda,

[QUOTE]
Can you elaborate?
[/QUOTE]

can you read?

If yes, then read the paragraph again. If no, then look for reading courses.

wa salamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda

4

1010 mate i think it ws more like

im leaving u quran and my sunnah....... :) BtW i dont seriously believe in the consept of Aile Bait even thought i may b a so called Syed

5

So Al-Muthanna, you can't say anything on your own? You just come, post something from somewhere and go?

ahmadarsalan, the original word prophet used was 'Ahle Bait', but this word was disliked by many people, hence it was replaced later with the word 'Sunnah'. Yet still there are many Ahle Sunnat ahadith books which use the original word of 'Ahle Bait'.

6

ahmedarsalan my ahmedi friend, please read the correct hadith from sahih muslim, i can get u the exact link too if you want..don't be a hater

Book 031, Number 5920:
Yazid b. Hayyan reported, I went along with Husain b. Sabra and 'Umar b. Muslim to Zaid b. Arqam and, as we sat by his side, Husain said to him: Zaid. you have been able to acquire a great virtue that you saw Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) listened to his talk, fought by his side in (different) battles, offered prayer behind me. Zaid, you have in fact earned a great virtue. Zaid, narrate to us what you heard from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). He said: I have grown old and have almost spent my age and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), so accept whatever I narrate to you, and which I do not narrate do not compel me to do that. He then said: One day Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) stood up to deliver sermon at a watering place known as Khumm situated between Mecca and Medina. He praised Allah, extolled Him and delivered the sermon and. exhorted (us) and said: Now to our purpose. O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of 'Abbas. Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: Yes.

7

:wsalam:

You can’t elaborate?

8

[quote]

...How strange that there is still no reply to the question where the Shiites take their religion from if the Quraan was transmitted by Kuffar, Liars, Munafiqeen, Murderers etc..

[/quote]

we believe the Quran was transmitted, amongst others, by Hazrat Ali, and a number of our masoom Imaams. A number of such copies exist, and I've cited that before. Please search 'museums and quran' in this forum.

When they came to Hazrat Ali's home, and demanded baiyat, he told them he wouldnt come out until he compiled the Quran completely.

[quote]

Furthermore don't forget that it can only be understood by the Aimmah. Yet in order to find out the authenticity of narrations the Shia claim that we have to compare them with the Quraan which unfortunately can only be understood by the Aimmah themselves.

Not to forget that the statements of the Aimmah are only found in books filled with lies according to your own scholars and moreover the narrators of these narrations were the same who transmitted those narrations about the MANIPULATION of the Quraan which is why your "great" scholars called the belief in the MANIPULATION of the Quraan a NESSECITY and pointed out that the belief in the narration about the Imaaamat requires belief in the narrations about the MANIPULATION. So either you believe in the Imaamat or in the completeness of the Quraan

[/quote]

firstly, cite references for claims you make.

secondly, are you saying your books (apart from the quran) are infallible? apparently some sunnis do hold this belief, but three of the more vocal sunnis on this board categorically rejected this assertion when I put it to them.

ps: search for quran shia and sunni in this forum. the topics been done to death, buried, exhumed, flogged, buried, exhumed, shot, roasted, buried..

9

Sheraz CT have a heart

ahmedarsalan my ahmedi friend,

Any body named Ahmad is not a ahmadi. mate plz do nt say this abt any body else if u donot know abt their religious beliefs..... :) Thanx

i thought family / or generation starts form the som rathe than the daughter that s y holy prophet PBUh did not have an heir bec Allah almighty knew tht some ppl would try some funny stuf... ie if he has a son ie to say they r better than the rest of the ummah. I my self am a so called Syed but do not believe in it bec there is no class sytem in Islam

AlLad Almighty said some thing lik this in qurean that i only made u in 2 groups so tht u can identify ur selfs easily; i could have mad u 1 family

thus this proves my point

10

Red Alert !! A Nasibi is on the loose!!

The topic of this thread should be "The Infinite Loop of the Nasibis". Cause Shias have refuted this topic counless times but its the nasabis who bring this topic again and again without knowing that by claiming that Shias have another quran or the quran is tempered or is not complete, they (nasibies) are denying Allah (swt), who says in Quran:

[Shakir 15:9] Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.

So if you think that a human has a power to alter the quran and can go against Allah (swt) then keep posting the **** like above and keep denying Allah (swt).

Bloody Nasibis!

11

Re: The Infinite Loop of the Rafida

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Al-Muthanna: *
**So either you believe in the Imaamat or in the completeness of the Quraan *

[/QUOTE]

In Sahih al Bukhari Volume 8, pages 209-210, we read this sermon delivered by Hadhrath Umar during his last Hajj as Khalifa:

"Certainly Allah sent Muhammad with the truth, and revealed to him the Book. One of the revelations which came to him was the verse of stoning. We read it and understood it”.

"The Messenger of God stoned and we stoned after him. I am concerned that if time goes on, someone may say, ** 'By God, we do not find the verse of stoning in the Book of God;' thus, the Muslims will deviate by neglecting a commandment the Almighty revealed.”**

"Stoning is in the Book of God. It is the right punishment for a person who commits adultery if the required witnesses are available, or there was pregnancy without marriage or adultery is admitted."

Ayesha also testified to a ‘missing’ verse on stoning

“When the verses “Rajm” [Stoning] and ayah “Rezah Kabir” descended, they were written on a piece of paper and kept under my pillow. Following the demise of Prophet Muhammad (S) a goat ate the piece of paper while we were mourning."

  1. Sunan Ibne Majah, Volume 2, Page 39, Published Karachi.
  2. Musnad Imam Ahmad, Volume 6, Page 269, Published Beirut.
  3. Taweel Mukhtalif Al hadees, Page 310, Published Beirut

Suyuti also records the following words of Abdullah ibne Umar:

“No one can proclaim that I have found the Qur’an complete because most of the Qur’an has been lost”.
Tafseer Durre Manthur” as-Suyuti Volume 1 page 104

You better go ask Umar, Ayesha and Abdullah ibne Umar first why they claim thier quran is not complete.

12

Assalamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda,

how unfortunate that despite all these posting, there was no answer to my question.

[QUOTE]
So Al-Muthanna, you can't say anything on your own? You just come, post something from somewhere and go?
[/QUOTE]

Dude, I wrote this paragraph. Got it? I doubt it.

There is no need for elaboration assuming your IQ exceeds 50.

But let me repeat it for you in extremely simple terms:

Rafida claims:

  1. Only Aimmah understand Quraan.
  2. Authenticity of Statements of the Aimmah determined by Quraan comparison.

Problem:

You can't determine the authenticity based on something which only those people understand whose statements you want to authenticate.

---> INFINITE LOOP.

[QUOTE]
we believe the Quran was transmitted, amongst others, by Hazrat Ali, and a number of our masoom Imaams. A number of such copies exist, and I've cited that before. Please search 'museums and quran' in this forum. When they came to Hazrat Ali's home, and demanded baiyat, he told them he wouldnt come out until he compiled the Quran completely.
[/QUOTE]

Nope, that's not true.

the Shiite encyclopedia says:

"After he compiled this transcript, Imam Ali (AS) took it and presented it to the rulers who came after the Holy Prophet, and said: "Here is the book of Allah, your Lord, in the order that was revealed to your Prophet." but they did not accept it and replied: "We have no need of this. We have with us what you possess." Thereupon, Imam Ali (AS) took the transcript back and informed them that they will NEVER see it again."

So if you believe this alleged compilation exists (meaning we have access to it), then you are declaring Ali (ra) according to this statement to be a liar since he promised they won't see it again.

Moreover you believe the Quraanic verses in our compilation is out of order, so if you claim that this compilation is not the one of the noble Sahabah whom you consider to be Kuffar, Munafiqeen, Liars, Murderers, Rapers and so on but that it is rather Ali's compilation, well, then you are accusing Ali (ra) of changing the right order of the verses. You choose.

Needless to say that we don't believe in these fairy tales, yet you do.

[QUOTE]
[Shakir 15:9] Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian. So if you think that a human has a power to alter the quran and can go against Allah (swt) then keep posting the **** like above and keep denying Allah (swt).
[/QUOTE]

I agree with you. So if someone believes anybody has the power to alter the Quraan, then he is denying Allah (swt) and thus he is a Kaffir. Right?

Finally, the Ahadeeth you posted all refer to the abrogation of recitation which your own scholars confirmed. So please get some knowlege about the different rules of abrogation.

Anyway, this thread is not discussing Sunni sources. I have a simple challenge for you, namely to solve above mentioned Infinite Loop. Please stick to the topic or openly declare your failure. AFTER THAT you are free to ask any questions concerning our sources. Anything else would be considered a vain attempt to distract from the main topic.

wa salamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda

13

What abt the Ayyat

on this day i have completed this religion for u and hav made a guidace for whole man kind

Quran is the main component of the religion islam this shows / proves tht it is complete... :)

14

ha! you only took a couple of lines from the article to support your ****.

I would encourage everybody to read the whole article in shia encyclopedia i.e The Quran Compiled by Imam Ali (AS).

So according to you every person who can read and understand arabic or even can understand the translaed text in urdu, english or whatsoever can not only fully understand quran but also elaborate every single ayah in quran.

in Quran Allah (swt) says:

“And We have sent down on you a Book in which is the clarification of ALL the things .” (Quran 16:89)

So according to above ayah there should be the clarification of every singly thing which exists. right??

And if someone deny the above ayah then he is a kaffir, cause he is denying what allah (swt) say.

So can you please find me from Quran where does it provide the clarification of how a DHCP Server works and how can I configure it so every body have access to internet through my computer?

You can even ask your local imam if you yourself have any dificulty finding it in quran. :wink:

15

I would also encourage all to go to the Shia Encyclopedia and read the ** whole chapter 8 ** about the completeness of the quran thierselves instead reading the bull-sh*it comming out of this Nasibi’s polluted head.

And Please also reffer to

The Knowledge of the Unseen & the Knowledge of the Book

16

Assalamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda,

zero, thanks for showing us your well manners. Do you learn that at home or in your Hussainiyaat? If you don't have an answer to challenge in this thread, then please don't waste the webspace and let others who are more knowledgable than you to answer.

Your posting really makes no sense. YOU implied that believing anybody has the power to alter the Quraan is equal to denying Allah (swt). So I simply asked you to confirm that again - and all of a sudden you start posting ridiculous matters that have nothing to do with the topic and only show your ignorance.

And yes, I posted a few lines that refer to the argument. Am I supposed to bore the members here with the whole article even if it doesn't relate to the specific topic to please you?

And finally, yes the Quraan contains everything, but not explicitely - only the most important concepts are found explicitely while the relatively minor details are directed to the Sunnah which redirects us in "technical matter" to use our brain, and to learn how a DHCP Server is configured. Now what does all this have to do with my simple challenge apart from trying to distract from it?

wa salamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda

17

zer01, ignore this loser
you have already given him the link to the shia encyclopedia..if he really wants to learn he will go and read..thats enough

18

Assalam o ALikum .....

i welcome brother Al-Muthanna to GS.....

i can see brother u r very knowlegeble about this sect ...but bear in mind that all are not same..try to get feel of this board..otherwise we might loose a knowlegable contributor....

wasalam

19

Thanks zer01 for good links. And remember that as long as Husseinis are here, Yazidis will be here as well.

Al-Muthanna can not allege, he can not answer anything.

[quote]
Al-Muthanna:
If you don't have an answer to challenge in this thread, then please don't waste the webspace and let others who are more knowledgable than you to answer.
[/quote]

If only you have enough courage to follow the links about completeness of Quran!
If only you have enough courage to see that there are many ahadith talking about incompleteness of Quran in Sahah Satta. Someone quoted only one such hadith, there are plenty.
Do you want to have a taste of it?

--

Ahle Sunnat left Ahle Bait and got their religion from outsiders. It resulted in some weird ahadith which give fodder to such books as 'Satanic Verses', 'Rangeela Rasool', etc.

20

this is 100 % correct :k: