The Infinite Loop of the Rafida

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Dear Nasibi aka Al-Muthanna aka KENAI aka HANTAYWEE NASCHA aka Al Nazeeri or whatever, all your problem is that you always creat fuss and come up banned bogus claims which have no logic at all and if some one proves you wrong then you start talking like **** to him and others. Thats why you got banned so many times from shiacaht.com

[QUOTE]
zero, thanks for showing us your well manners. Do you learn that at home or in your Hussainiyaat?
[/QUOTE]

Oh yeah my manners, LOL. These are the left overs of my last 30 years of life which I spent in dor-e-Jahilia. I have recently embraced the True Madhab of Ahle Bayt (as) so it will take a little time to get rid of these bad habits of calling people the names which I was taught in "muderisa" as I was a child.

[QUOTE]
please don't waste the webspace and let others who are more knowledgable than you to answer.
[/QUOTE]

read above. Your intention are never to learn but only to creat fitna on the religious forums. i.e wastage of web space. and yes I know I am not a very knowledgable person but believe me if I had the knowledge which I posses today I'd converted to shiaism years ago. so chil ;)

[QUOTE]

Your posting really makes no sense. YOU implied that believing anybody has the power to alter the Quraan is equal to denying Allah (swt). So I simply asked you to confirm that again - and all of a sudden you start posting ridiculous matters that have nothing to do with the topic and only show your ignorance.

[/QUOTE]

Whatever you say all I know is that Allah (swt) says in his book:

"(O' Prophet) say: Enough for witness between me and you is Allah and he who possesses the Knowledge of the Book." (Quran 13:43)

We Shia follow the person who possesses the Knowledge of the Book and that is Hz. Ali (a.s). We also have an Imam (as), The 12 Imam, the grand grand son and Wasi of Rasulallah (saww) for our guidence at the present time. And we are never left alone without an Imam i-e guide after the death of Rasulallah (saww).

So if you have a little bit aql left in your pretty empty Nasibi head then read above again and again you will find all your answer in the above ayah and the text afterwards.

BTW would you mind providing us with the links where you "pretty much annihilated" the members of shaichat?

22

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zer01: *

Oh yeah my manners, LOL. These are the left overs of my last 30 years of life which I spent in dor-e-Jahilia. I have recently embraced the True Madhab of Ahle Bayt (as) so it will take a little time to get rid of these bad habits of calling people the names which I was taught in "muderisa" as I was a child.

[/QUOTE]

Why this complex of mentioning that u were (as you say ) sunni and now are converted shia..what is the prrooof....

where did u learned ...whom u followed..any proof that u were sunni......

i dont see any proper reply to u r so callled nasibi ........only tabbrra ...no proper answers.....

intuit where are u ....u r brothers need help ... :D

23

Assalamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda,

zero,

"perish in your rage"

Allah (swt) is my witness that I don't know who these people are whom you mentioned and He alone is sufficient.

But it seems you learn Rafidi "well manners" very quickly.

as for 1010, you know what is really funny is that I seem to know more about those Rafidi links than your brothers. After all I remember it was me who used them actually against them. So relax.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for an answer to the very first posting in this thread...

a quick reminder:

**Rafida claims:

  1. Only Aimmah understand Quraan.
  2. Authenticity of Statements of the Aimmah determined by Quraan comparison.

Problem:

You can't determine the authenticity based on something which only those people understand whose statements you want to authenticate.

---> INFINITE LOOP.**

wa salamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda

24

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Al-Muthanna: *
Assalamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda,

zero,

"perish in your rage"

Allah (swt) is my witness that I don't know whose these people are whom you mentioned and He alone is sufficient.

But it seems you learn Rafidi "well manners" very quickly.

as for 1010, you know what is really funny is that I seem to know more about those Rafidi links than your brothers. After all I remember it was me who used them actually against them. So relax.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for an answer to the very first posting in this thread...

a quick reminder:

**Rafida claims:

  1. Only Aimmah understand Quraan.
  2. Authenticity of Statements of the Aimmah determined by Quraan comparison.

Problem:

You can't determine the authenticity based on something which only those people understand whose statements you want to authenticate.

---> INFINITE LOOP.**

wa salamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda
[/QUOTE]

Firstly, call us by the name we call ourselves by, if you wish to have a meaningful debate.

We are shia.

Secondly, kindly substantiate both of your assertions, and I'll see what I can do to counter them.

Im glad that I've atleast quitened your first assertion, regarding the Quran.

Again, I remind you, that there exist atleast 4 copies that I can identify, of the Quran written in an Imam's own hand.

25

Assalamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houd,

[QUOTE]
We are shia.
[/QUOTE]

Nope, in Bihaar ul Anwar it says that your Aimmah loved this title. In fact there is a whole chapter entitled "merits of the Rafida and praise of calling oneself that way". So you see it's not my fault.

[QUOTE]
Secondly, kindly substantiate both of your assertions, and I'll see what I can do to counter them.
[/QUOTE]

Why should I do so? Do you deny them? If yes, I will bring you the proof, if no, then what use is your demand?

[QUOTE]
Im glad that I've atleast quitened your first assertion, regarding the Quran. Again, I remind you, that there exist atleast 4 copies that I can identify, of the Quran written in an Imam's own hand.
[/QUOTE]

It's not a matter of quitting it, but I consider this part to be another topic and it's better to focus on one.

[QUOTE]
Again, I remind you, that there exist atleast 4 copies that I can identify, of the Quran written in an Imam's own hand.
[/QUOTE]

Again I refer you back to the Shiite encyclopdia which is denying your claim.

wa salamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda

26

Nevertheless, contemporary usage of this word is more often as a slur than anything else. Unless you yourself write a chapter on the merits of the rafidah, I insist on being known as a shia.

[quote]

Why should I do so? Do you deny them? If yes, I will bring you the proof, if no, then what use is your demand?

[/quote]

its upto you to prove your assertions, and for me to throw a monkeywrench in your machinations. learn the basics of debating.

those who make claims need to substantiate them.

[quote]

Again I refer you back to the Shiite encyclopdia which is denying your claim.

[/quote]

Search museums and imam and quran on this forum.

No book or literature, apart from the Quran is infallible. Shia encyclopedia included.

27

Assalamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda,

[QUOTE]
Nevertheless, contemporary usage of this word is more often as a slur than anything else. Unless you yourself write a chapter on the merits of the rafidah, I insist on being known as a shia.
[/QUOTE]

Well, then you are contradicting your infallible Aimmah, and contradicting them is equal to contradicting the Prophet (saws) and contradiciting the Prophet (saws) is contradicting Allah (swt). That's what you believe, don't you?

[QUOTE]
its upto you to prove your assertions, and for me to throw a monkeywrench in your machinations. learn the basics of debating.
[/QUOTE]

You know we are talking about basics, it's like telling me before starting a debate about the sun, prove the existence of the sun to me. Well, why should I do so if you don't deny it? Why should I waste my time looking for the sources if you agree with the assertions anyway? This is foo foo dust.
Therefore I ask you to deny these assertions if you doubt them, so we can have a sensible debate. Otherwise go ahead and try to refute the conclucsion. Good luck!

[QUOTE]
Search museums and imam and quran on this forum. No book or literature, apart from the Quran is infallible. Shia encyclopedia included.
[/QUOTE]

Nice, but you know the Shiite encyclopdia is not saying: "this is our personal opinion", but rather they are relying on narrations! So are you telling me they are using fabricated narrations? Moreover you still have to explain how come your sect believes the Quraan we have today is out of order if it is Ali's compilation. Anyway, I will open a new thread for you where I challenge you to bring me a single narration from YOUR books that says the Sahabah accepted the alleged compilation of Ali (ra) and therefore our Quraan is his compilation. Should be pretty easy.

As for this thread, let's focus on the main topic, namely the Infinite Loop problem.

wa salamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda

28

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Al-Muthanna: *
Well, then you are contradicting your infallible Aimmah, and contradicting them is equal to contradicting the Prophet (saws) and contradiciting the Prophet (saws) is contradicting Allah (swt). That's what you believe, don't you?

[/quote]

bihar ul anwaar was not written by an imam.

[quote]

You know we are talking about basics, it's like telling me before starting a debate about the sun, prove the existence of the sun to me. Well, why should I do so if you don't deny it? Why should I waste my time looking for the sources if you agree with the assertions anyway? This is foo foo dust.

[/quote]

no, its like asking you to provide basis for any assertions you make on our behalf. if you were talking about the sun, and asserted that its diameter was 15000kms, I would ask you to provide a reference before commenting either way.

[quote]

Nice, but you know the Shiite encyclopdia is not saying: "this is our personal opinion", but rather they are relying on narrations! So are you telling me they are using fabricated narrations? Moreover you still have to explain how come your sect believes the Quraan we have today is out of order if it is Ali's compilation. Anyway, I will open a new thread for you where I challenge you to bring me a single narration from YOUR books that says the Sahabah accepted the alleged compilation of Ali (ra) and therefore our Quraan is his compilation. Should be pretty easy.

As for this thread, let's focus on the main topic, namely the Infinite Loop problem.

wa salamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda
[/QUOTE]

Read carefully. I said Imams, not Hazrat Ali. Furthermore, Hazrat Ali's compilation was an arrangement, which we believe is the correct chronological ordering. There exist, even now, a number of such codices.

According to varying historical narratives, the last existing copy of Hazrat Ali's compilation existed till 400 hijri.

There has been such a lot of debate on this.. i really urge you to read up on that before asking me to go through it again..

And anything that contradicts facts, be they ever so many "narrations" for it, can be dismissed as an introduction from history.

29

Assalamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda,

[QUOTE]
bihar ul anwaar was not written by an imam.
[/QUOTE]

So these narrations are fabrications?

[QUOTE]
no, its like asking you to provide basis for any assertions you make on our behalf. if you were talking about the sun, and asserted that its diameter was 15000kms, I would ask you to provide a reference before commenting either way.
[/QUOTE]

Your belief that only the Aimmah understand the Quraan is not a well known Rafidi basic? And it is not a well known Rafidi claim that you diregard everything which contradict the Quraan which was reported in the introduction of Al-Kafi. As for the first assertion then Al-Tussi wrote in his Tibyan (Vol. 1, P. 4), that Tafsir is only allowed based on the sayings of the Prophet (saws) and the Aimmah. Anything else is rejected. Moreover I heard Tijani interpreting the verse "no one shall touch it except the purified" that it means only the Aimmah understand the Quraan. Now would you please openly deny these assertions?

[QUOTE]
According to varying historical narratives, the last existing copy of Hazrat Ali's compilation existed till 400 hijri.
[/QUOTE]

Very good, so that matter is finished now, we agree that you have to rely on the Sahabahs' compilation, whom you consider to be liars, murderes, hypocrites, rapers, thieves and so on.

Good, now could you please finally address the topic of this thread - namely the Infinite Loop?

wa salamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda

30

[QUOTE]
"perish in your rage"
[/QUOTE]

LOL, Thats so typical. Thats what you always do when you dont know how to answer.

I was'nt expecting any thing better coming out of a Nasibi head anyway.

Still waiting for the links where you pretty much destroyed the shiachat members.

31

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Al-Muthanna: *
Very good, so that matter is finished now, we agree that you have to rely on the Sahabahs' compilation,
[/quote]

Sahaba's compilations? What compilations? Immediately after Prophet's death there was a ban on writing down Hadith.

32

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Al-Muthanna: *
Moreover I heard Tijani interpreting the verse "no one shall touch it except the purified" that it means only the Aimmah understand the Quraan. Now would you please openly deny these assertions?

[/QUOTE]

It was a good book, wasn't it. ;)
It means that only purified understand the whole Quran exactly as it was intended by Allah.

No one can claim that he understands Quran fully.

33

Assalamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda,

so where is the answer to my challenge:

**Rafida claims:

  1. Only Aimmah understand Quraan.
  2. Authenticity of Statements of the Aimmah determined by Quraan comparison.

Problem:

You can't determine the authenticity based on something which only those people understand whose statements you want to authenticate.

---> INFINITE LOOP.**

wa salamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda

34

[quote]

Your belief that only the Aimmah understand the Quraan is not a well known Rafidi basic? And it is not a well known Rafidi claim that you diregard everything which contradict the Quraan which was reported in the introduction of Al-Kafi. As for the first assertion then Al-Tussi wrote in his Tibyan (Vol. 1, P. 4), that Tafsir is only allowed based on the sayings of the Prophet (saws) and the Aimmah. Anything else is rejected. Moreover I heard Tijani interpreting the verse "no one shall touch it except the purified" that it means only the Aimmah understand the Quraan. Now would you please openly deny these assertions?

[/quote]

good, so now we know where you're coming from.

The passage in Kafi that you refer to, is that if there are conflicting traditions, then we need to settle the conflict in the light of the Quran.

"Test the conflicting traditions by the Book of Allah, and that
which agrees with it take it, and that which disagrees with it
reject it..."

I hope you understand how this breaks your supposed loop :).

35

furthermore, might I add that the ahadith and tafaseer support the Quran, are in explanation of it.

in that sense they are secondary, explanatory material.

if some of that explanatory material finds no basis in the Quran, you realise that there is no dependency on that material anymore, since it does not explain any content in the Quran, rather contradicts it.

therefore, there really isnt any circularity in it after all. you merely need to examine things more closely.

36

Assalamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda,

I thank you for the first posting that relates directly to the topic!

Now let me comment on what you have said so far:

[QUOTE]
good, so now we know where you're coming from. The passage in Kafi that you refer to, is that if there are conflicting traditions, then we need to settle the conflict in the light of the Quran.
[/QUOTE]

So you are implying that Al-Kulayni only suggested to use this test when it comes to conflicting reports. Unfortunately, that's not what he says and that's not what your scholars understood. For instance in one of the books on al-islam.org, we read the following:

"I am inclined to believe that al-Kulayni did not subscribe to what he reported because he mentioned in his book al-Kafi that ALL HADITHS SHOULD BE TESTED BY the Book of God (the Qur'an). Whatever agrees with the Qur'an should be accepted, and whatever disagrees with the Qur'an should be rejected.

Al-Kulayni mentioned in his introduction to his book the following:

"Brother, may God lead you to the right road. You ought to know that it is impossible for anyone to distinguish the truth from the untruth when Muslim scholars disagree upon statements attributed to the Imams. THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO SEPERATE THE TRUE FROM THE UNTRUE REPORTS, through the standard which was declared by the Imam:
"'Test the VARIOUS reports by the Book of God; whatever agrees with it take it, whatever disagrees with it reject it.
"'Take what is agreed upon (by scholars). Certainly the universally accepted should not be doubted. '"

So we see he is not only talking about the contradiciting reports, rather he is referring to all reports and this is what the author of that article also understood from that passage.

[QUOTE]
furthermore, might I add that the ahadith and tafaseer support the Quran, are in explanation of it. in that sense they are secondary, explanatory material.
[/QUOTE]

Again, I'm sorry but that's not what your scholars have said. Al-Tussi in His Tibyan explicitely contradicted this opinion you are presenting and said:

"Know that the narrations in the reports of our companions are obvious that it is NOT ALLOWED TO DO TAFSIR EXCEPT WITH THE AUTHENTIC NARRATIONS BY THE PROPHET (SAWS) AND THE AIMMAH (RA), whose statements is a Hujja like the statements of the Prophet (saws), AND THAT IT IS NOT ALLOWED TO SPEAK FROM ONE'S OPINION." (Al-Tibyan, Vol. 1, P. 4)

So he is considering the narrations not only to be primary source but even the ONLY PERMISSIBLE SOURCE!

..this leads us to the problem:
**
1. Only Aimmah understand Quraan.
2. Authenticity of Statements of the Aimmah determined by Quraan comparison.

Problem:

You can't determine the authenticity based on something which only those people understand whose statements you want to authenticate.

---> INFINITE LOOP.**

wa salamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda

37

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Al-Muthanna: *
Assalamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda,

I thank you for the first posting that relates directly to the topic!

[/quote]

[quote]

"Brother, may God lead you to the right road. You ought to know that it is impossible for anyone to distinguish the truth from the untruth when Muslim scholars disagree upon statements attributed to the Imams. THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO SEPERATE THE TRUE FROM THE UNTRUE REPORTS, through the standard which was declared by the Imam:
"'Test the VARIOUS reports by the Book of God; whatever agrees with it take it, whatever disagrees with it reject it.

So we see he is not only talking about the contradiciting reports, rather he is referring to all reports and this is what the author of that article also understood from that passage.

[/quote]

i guess we can argue back and forth over "various" and "conflicting" incessantly, so I'll focus on your second argument.

[quote]

"Know that the narrations in the reports of our companions are obvious that it is NOT ALLOWED TO DO TAFSIR EXCEPT WITH THE AUTHENTIC NARRATIONS BY THE PROPHET (SAWS) AND THE AIMMAH (RA), whose statements is a Hujja like the statements of the Prophet (saws), AND THAT IT IS NOT ALLOWED TO SPEAK FROM ONE'S OPINION." (Al-Tibyan, Vol. 1, P. 4)

[/quote]

this is what Im saying !

Tafaseer, interpretation of the Quran should be done in context of explanations offered.

"primary" here refers to the source of the guidance, the Quran. Explanations of the source need to conform to the source. Should they contradict the source, they should be discarded.

Those that do not contradict the source then, should be taken as resource for tafseer.

38

[QUOTE]
Tafaseer, interpretation of the Quran should be done in context of explanations offered. "primary" here refers to the source of the guidance, the Quran. Explanations of the source need to conform to the source. Should they contradict the source, they should be discarded.
[/QUOTE]

You are falling into a vicious circle now. Again I say, how do you want to know what contradicts the "source" if the ONLY WAY TO UNDERSTAND AND INTERPRET IT CORRECTLY are the narrations of the Prophet (saws) and the Aimmah whose authenticity you want to check by the source itself?

wa salamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda

39

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Al-Muthanna: *

You are falling into a vicious circle now. Again I say, how do you want to know what contradicts the "source" if the ONLY WAY TO UNDERSTAND AND INTERPRET IT CORRECTLY are the narrations of the Prophet (saws) and the Aimmah whose authenticity you want to check by the source itself?

wa salamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda
[/QUOTE]

you deliberately obfuscate distinctions.

I say proposition X.

I have five explanatory texts, two of which say not-X. Three say X AND X is X because falana.

We can immediately reject the first two that say not-X.

We can take the remaining three that say X, and use them to explain X.

40

Assalamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda,

you are unnecessarily complicating things. It's very simple:

**According to your scholars, Tafsir of any verse must be exclusively done by relying on the statements of the Aimmah because ONLY they understand the Quraan truely. Right?

On the other hand, if you want to know the authenticity of these very statements which are so essential to understand the Quraan, you claim to rely on the Quraan itself completely ignoring the fact that you don't understand it!**

Up to now, you couldn't come up with a solution. And I dare to say that you will never be able to do so.

wa salamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda