The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Recently I got some more understanding of the clash between Ashari and Mutazilah that happened a thousand year ago. This was an interesting and very important debate which defined Islamic theology, society and people up to present time.
Mutazilah lost. Ashari won.

One of the most important question, at least in my view, was whether Quran is Khaliq or Makhlooq.

Ashari consider Quran to be Khaliq, that is, they consider Quran to be a part of God Himself. They consider Quran to be present in the same form even before it was revealed.
Now we know that there are many verses in Quran which are applicable to some very specific incidents that happened in Prophet’s time. So the implication of considering Quran to be present even before it was revealed, was that these incidents were BOUND to happen. And in this way the concept of ‘free-will’ was buried.
This is the widely prevalent view-point among present day Muslims.

Mutazili considered Quran to be Makhlooq, that is, they said Quran was revealed while the events in Prophet’s time were unfolding. It did not exist before that time. People were making choices out of their ‘free-will’, and God was commenting on these choices through Quran at the same instant.

The secondary implication, and I think the most fundamental one, of this debate was that Ashari thought that since Quran was present even before revelation therefore Quranic verses are applicable for all times, and in literal sense of the words. But Mutazili thought that since many Quranic verses were revealed only for specific incidents of that specific time, therefore they are open for interpretation by people of other times.

Which side of the debate do you find yourself?

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Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)

I find myself on Mutazili side, that makes more sense to me, though traditional sunni scholars have been ashari.

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Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)

ONLY Allah Almighty is the khaliq ..rest is Makhlooq.

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Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)

‘Khaliq’ in the sense that Quran is eternal, and was present even before it was revealed. This is a classic Ashari view as opposed to Mu’tazili.
And majority of Muslims present today ascribe to Ashari thoughts. In other words, they consider Quran to be ‘khaliq’ (eternal).

Against the view of the Mu’tazila that the qur’an was created, al-Ash’ari maintained that it was God’s speech, an eternal attribute, and therefore** uncreated**.

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Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)

Quran is the very word of the Almighty Allah and is valid till the end of times i.e., we can seek guidance from it till Qiyamah. Considering Quran Khaliq or Makhlooq is quite weird and sick. and why is it important for us to know whether it existed before it was revealed? Even if it existed before, it still is the word of Allah meant for the guidance of 'Mutaqeen'.

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Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)

There was a fierce debate about it in second and third century of Islam on this issue. It looks weird now because Mutazilah completely lost this debate. But at that time it was not weird and sick debate.

[quote]
and why is it important for us to know whether it existed before it was revealed?
[/quote]

Because if it existed before then it would mean that all incidences in Prophet's time for which aayats were revealed, were pre-destined. It would mean that man can not change the future, because everything is already written by Allah. This is the Ashari view, which exists today.
Mutazilah thought that future is uncertain, and depends on individual choices people make out of their own free will.

[quote]
it still is the word of Allah meant for the guidance of 'Mutaqeen'.
[/QUOTE]

Yes guidance for sure, but guidance for which era of Muslims? That was the question. At least that's the question I understand from reading about it.
Ashari, that is present day Muslims, think that whatever God ordered in Quran is absolute and has to be taken in the literal sense of the word by Muslims of all times. Mutalizah, those who lost, thought that Quranic orders were primarily for people of Prophet's era, and that they can be interpreted in other ways by people of other eras based on the conditions of time.

Mutazilah considered reason to precede revelation. They thought that if something does not appear to be good through reason then it can not be God's will. Ashari thought that nothing is good or bad, except when it is defined as such by Allah. Hence according to Asharis, killing a person is bad, not because reason tells us so, but because Allah said so.

These ideas can have huge implications on a society. Because they form the basis of how Quran and hadith are interpreted to consider what is Islamic and what is un-Islamic.

I know nobody even knows whether he is Ashari or Mutazilah. But I can assure you that even without knowing, most people follow Ashari school, because that is what they have been taught from the beginning.

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Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)

This is all I learned from a book I just read. I am obviously not an expert on this subject matter. So I am open to suggestions if I am wrong in some of my understandings.
I would welcome if someone corrects me.

The book I read is this one. It was in my signature until a mod asked me to delete it, because she thought I was ‘advertising’ it. sigh.
Anyway. Here is the link:

The Closing of the Muslim Mind: How Intellectual Suicide Created the Modern Islamist

The book is written by Robert Reilly.

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Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)

Quran is a book of knowledge and guidance. its neither khaliq nor makhlooq. This arguements from Abbasi time was waste of time and divided ummah.

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Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)

As per the teachings of Imams from Ahlul Bayt (as), everything other than God is a creation of God. That includes Quran.

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Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)

Sorry my friend, but Quran could either be a creation or a part of Creator. It can not be neither.

[quote]
This arguements from Abbasi time was waste of time and divided ummah.
[/QUOTE]

It was an important argument. This is why Ahmed bin Hanbal was imprisoned.
If Mutazilah had won then we would have seen a very different approach to religion by Muslims.

I am giving an example from my own understanding here. Statues are forbidden because prophet ordered Muslims not to do it. But a Mutazila might have said that he forbade statues out of fear of people making his own image and idolizing him. And now since there is no fear of it happening, therefore both statues and photography is allowed.

So implications go far beyond than just calling Quran creation or eternal. (I am using the term 'eternal' here, because I think the word 'khaliq' is making people very uncomfortable).

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Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)

The terminology used is makhluq or ghair makhluq

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Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)

Ok. Then use makhluq and ghair-makhlooq. I tried to change the topic of the thread, but for some reason it doesn’t show up.
T
he book I read in Urdu used the terms khaliq and makhlooq.

Here is a website that also uses the terms khaliq and makhlooq for Quran.

هل القرآن لا خالق ولا مخلوق؟
عن أبي محمد الزبيري قال: قال رجل للشافعي، أخبرني عن القرآن خالق هو؟

And just so you know, it has NOTHING to do with ethnicity!

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Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)

And the point of his thread is?

Quran is word of Allah compiled in 'book' form for reading and understanding. That's it.

Where does khaliq or mukhlooq fits here? And how does it affect anyone to do what is right or wrong at all?

Some people had or have too much spare time to create such frivolous debates.

Isn't this a good example to show this baseless division of people in to ashari or whatever needs to be abolished once for all?

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Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)

Do you think some of the ayahs in Quran may not be applicable today, or need a different interpretation than earlier Muslims?

This is the reason I started the thread. I wanted to see how far the implications of this debate go.

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Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)

I am not sure what was posted above had anything to do with what you are saying in this post.

There is no implication from this debate which will bring to the result you mean or are expecting.

Quran is not a live form.

Quran cannot be khaliq or makhlooq, and your post # 10 was a mile off logic when you said it could be creation or part of creator.

Quran as it is believed, is he word of almighty delivered by his angel to the prophet SAW. Nohing less nothing more. Why make it complicated?

What implication will it have on people who are suppose to simply read it and undersand it?

Now as far as your quesion of difference in time and interpretaion, it is another separate issue.

Why not directly ask that question without going in to a long totally unrelated rout?

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Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)

Quran is definitely the creation and not part of the creator. Although what I know that it was created much earlier and brought down to firts heaven and called Loh-e-Mehfooz. From there it was revealed in buts and pieces.

Today the order of Quran that we have is not the order it was revealed in but the order it was saved as Loh-e-mehfooz.

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Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)

diwana:

[quote]
Quran as it is believed, is he word of almighty delivered by his angel to the prophet SAW.
[/quote]

But this point is not even the argument.

This is what I was thinking.
If Quran was revealed for a specific time and is not eternal (per Mutazili), then Quranic laws may be interpreted differently by people from other eras; based on what logic of that time says.
This means that a ruling or fatwa made hundreds of years ago by the four imams may be changed today by scholars of present day. Thus doors of ijtehad are not closed, and **rules of shariah **can be interpreted differently today based on logic and reasoning of present day.

The title of the book I mentioned earlier talks about "Intellectual suicide" of closed Muslim mind. Per my understanding, what he means by 'intellectual suicide' is the removal of reasoning in interpreting the laws of religion, resulting in religion becoming stagnant and incapable of being dynamic.

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Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)

So you are closer to Mutazili view in this case.

The Mutazilites argued that the Koran is not eternal, since only God can be eternal; it therefore is created. Al-Ashari held that it is the literal speech of God, therefore one of His eternal attributes, and hence uncreated.

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Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)

Agreed there, with the exception of certain pre-requisites which need to be considered before doing Ijtehad. What are those parts which need to be changed (the interpretation and application of) and what are those which should not will be next task.

The terms khaliq or makhlooq (considering the meaning of these words) is still irrelevant but if these two made up groups watned to call it like that then so be it.

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Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)

khoji

You are taking an entirely different meaning and implications the debate between Asharis and Mutazilites.

You seem to implicate that Quran is not eternal, so some verses are not applicable today. Thats not what Mutazilites meant by createdness of Quran. The debate was on origins of Quran and not for how long it will be applicable.

That debate was in context of many other similar debates of that time like attributes of Allah. Asharies beleived that Quran is the speech of Allah and since no beginning can be attributed to Allah and he has always been present, same is true of Quran, it has always been there. Mutazilites beleived it was created by Allah at a certain time. Other words used for it were Hadth and Qadeem.