Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)
You seem to implicate that Quran is not eternal, so some verses are not applicable today. Thats not what Mutazilites meant by createdness of Quran.
I have not found anything substantiating this claim either. So even though it would seem to be a logical conclusion to me, I think you are right that this was not the part of debate.
Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)
seems like you are talking about "Masla-e-Khalq-e-Quran" but the term "Khaliq or Makhlooq" which you used is not appropriate.
as per my understanding and limited knowledge, Quran as we see today is "subset" of Loh-e-mehfooz, or Um-ul-kitaab, which was there long before Quran was revealed. because ALLAH subhanho wata'ala is eternal, and speech is HIS attribute, and Quran is HIS speach, it makes Quran not-created as "hadas" as mutazila say. and because everything that has happened since the creation of this universe, till the end of it, is written, in Loh-e-mehfooz, it should not be a surprise that the events which were supposed to happen during the times of Muhammad sallalaho alaeyhe wassallam, were written in Quran, and revealed periodically as and when deemed suitable, and required.
this starts discussion on another topic of "Masla-e-Qaza wa Qadar" which is a detailed discussion in itself, in short, in words of Mufti Ibrahim Desai
[QUOTE]
Al-Qadhaa literally means that which is decreed and Al-Qadr means that which is measured. According to the Shariah it refers to the absolute and perfect knowledge of Allah having knowledge of everything ahead of time. It does not that we as human beings have no choice of performing good deeds and abstaining from wrong and sinful deeds.
[/QUOTE]
staying on topic, Quran is not "Creation", its speech (an attribute) of ALLAH swt, and ALLAH is eternal
Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)
Quran is uncreated it is neither Khaliq nor Makhluq
Qur'an is no more makhluq as the knowledge of the All-Knower is makhluq
Since the All-Knower has knowledge that has never been needed to be learnt, therefore that knowledge never had a beginning and hence is deemed uncreated. Likewise Quran is from the knowledge of Allah.
Mutazili aqeedah has been banned from the Ahl-us-Sunnah, so please bear this in mind if you suddenly side with it.
Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal suffered great ordeals at the hands of Mamoon who asserted that the Qur'an was created.
The openining post has stated deceivingly that Ash'ari believe that Qur'an is Khaliq, rather this is the accusation made by the Mutazili.
Also, note that it is wrong to say anything is part of Allah, Allah (SWT) is One, and Oneness cannot be divided parts. Divinity is indivisible.
The Sifat are not part of Allah (SWT) rather they belong to Him alone. This is critical that we understand this most basic of concepts. Qul-hu-Allah-hu Ahad. (Unique = Identity = Absolute).
Qur'an in scripture is said to be 'revealed' - Since the All-Knower Knows what will happen, when it happens for our purposes it is then 'revealed'. It is not created at any point. Therefore it is still perfectly possible for a verse to be meant for a specifc event. There is no connection between the idea of "applicable to all times" and "nature of Qur'an".
The way to view to Qur'an is by analogy. Know that an event unfolded in the past and the verse refers to that event, but similar events will unfold like that that we can look out for and be prepared for. It contains lessons ... Every lesson has a specific situation where it was learnt and then the general rule can be taken from it. It does not mean that the lesson was not applicable before it was learnt nor does it imply that the lesson is only situation specific.
It defintiely does not mean that the "revelation" stems from a previously unknown event.
Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)
^^ very beautifully explained.
Jazakallah
Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)
Quran is uncreated it is neither Khaliq nor Makhluq
Sorry I did not read the rest of your reply. But when you say Quran is uncreated then it would mean it is eternal. If you have problem in using the word 'khaliq' then don't use it.
Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)
seems like you are talking about "Masla-e-Khalq-e-Quran" but the term "Khaliq or Makhlooq" which you used is not appropriate.
Excuse me, I did not create these terms.
Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)
The openining post has stated deceivingly that Ash'ari believe that Qur'an is Khaliq, rather this is the accusation made by the Mutazili.
Highly unlikely. Mutazila were defeated long time ago. Their books were scrapped. It is not possible that Mutazila 'accusations' would continue to have survived.
Books by Mu'tazila were hardly known by the world until 1950s.
[quote]
Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal suffered great ordeals at the hands of Mamoon who asserted that the Qur'an was created.
[/quote]
This discussion does not belong to this thread.
But it is true. Ahmad Hanbal's and Ghazali's traditionalist approach is what Reilly calls the "intellectual suicide" of Muslims.
Of course, most people here are not going to agree with this analysis. Many of us would still think that a shalwar above the ankles and wearing of pagrri and using maswak and not taking pictures, is the essence of Islam.
THAT's the intellectual suicide.
Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)
As per the teachings of Imams from Ahlul Bayt (as), everything other than God is a creation of God. That includes Quran.
True. When I read some of the Mu'tazila teachings I was surprised to see how similar it is to shia philosophy.
This is why shiaism has the concept of taqleed of a LIVING scholar. This makes sure that people follow the rulings which are interpreted according to the requirements of the time. This makes shiaism much more dynamic and evolving school of thought.
I hope that similar thinking, based on reason+tradition instead of tradition alone, is followed by the rest of Muslims well.
By the way, remember Akhbaris and their rejection of concept of taqleed? There are many Akhbari twelver shias present even today, although very marginalized. So traditionalist thinking is not just confined to sunnis.
Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)
Interesting, so what evolution has taken place in Jafri Fiqh in last 50 years.
Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)
The return of the paranoid.
Find out the differences of rulings between marj3 of various times, and then go start another thread.
Meanwhile, try explaining why miswak is preferable to the toothpaste, or why shalwar above ankles is necessary.
“Know that the Religion is what came from Allaah, the Blessed and Most High. It is not something left to the intellects and opinions of men. Knowledge of it is what comes from Allaah and His Messenger (Salallaahu Alayhi wa Salam)”…Imam Barbahaaree
Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)
^I only asked you how is Jafri Fiqh more evolving than rest of muslims.
BTW, there are Mutazalites present these days as well, they go by the name of pervaizis.
Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)
Khoji, now your intentions are clear. I wasted my time coming in this thread. Every minutes counts in Ramadaan and I don't want to spend them on Rawafidhz or Qadiyaaniz trying to implant doubts in the minds of an average Muslim in the Holy month.
Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)
Excuse me, I did not create these terms.
Excused. I did not say you created the terms, i said the term you are using ("khaliq" to be specific) is not appropriate. there is no eternal Khaliq but ALLAH.
and if you read psyah's complete post, he has already answered all of your questions already, and that in excellent way.
Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)
Highly unlikely. Mutazila were defeated long time ago. Their books were scrapped. It is not possible that Mutazila 'accusations' would continue to have survived.
don't be surprised. here is the answer to this question of yours in your own words....
True. When I read some of the Mu'tazila teachings I was surprised to see how similar it is to shia philosophy.
Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)
Dude its easy to look down upon others and a totally different thing to prove your point. If you just want to say that salafism is static, then i will give it to you, yes t is. But sunnism in general is IMHO more dynamic than shiaism.
Instead of getting fired up, you shud have a logical discussion. Since you have not answered my question of what has evolved in last 50 years, let it go. But what things are so common between mu’tazila and shia?
Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)
Sorry I did not read the rest of your reply. But when you say Quran is uncreated then it would mean it is eternal. If you have problem in using the word 'khaliq' then don't use it.
It was you who used the word khaliq - I don't use that word to refer to the Qur'an, you did though. Although by the style of your words you believe it is wrong to use it, but note that no one here should believe that either. The false dichotomy is the one where you suggest that because it is not khaliq it must be makhluq and because it is not makhluq it must be khaliq ... this is false.
All things that are ghair-makhluq are things that belong to Allah and in turn He is Khaliq.
Ghair Makhluq are the Attributes of Allah (SWT) that are unchanged or affected by the presence of creation. Allah (SWT) is Khaliq despite the existence of makhluq or not. Allah (SWT) is All-Wise, has been All-Wise, and will always remain All-Wise (unchanging). The Wisdom of Allah (SWT) has always been with Him and the Knowledge of Allah (SWT) has never evaded Him and He has never had to learn anything. The Qur'an is from faculty of the Knowledge of Allah (SWT).
Just as our speech is a result of the words we think - yet our thoughts are temporal, therefore our words are created.
Is the Qur'an eternal - yes, life is also said to be eternal in the Hereafter either in Hell or Heaven so you should not have a problem in a Sifat of Allah being eternal if an actual makhluq can also be Sustained by Allah eternally.
Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)
Doesn't matter, we ain't going to act on the instructions provided anyway... so whats the point other than killing sometime before iftar...
Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)
psyah:
[quote]
It was you who used the word khaliq - I don't use that word to refer to the Qur'an, you did though.
Although by the style of your words you believe it is wrong to use it, but note that no one here should believe that either.
[/quote]
I am not the inventor of this word. The word khaliq for Quran is an accepted terminology among Muslims to explain the concept.
The 'style of my words' say that I can understand why people are being so uncomfortable in the use of this word, and since I am not interested in discussing this word, I said it is ok if we use alternative words. Because it is the concept we are interested in. We are not interested in specific words.
That's why I even tried to change the title of the word to remove the word 'khaliq' from it, but the software does not allow me to change it. Feel free to change it yourself.
Anyway. The point of this thread is lost. Point was to discuss the "implications" of that argument. Discussion on use of words was not the intention.
Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)
This is a thought provoking thread. Some very nice replies as well. Some tangents too. This is one of the topics I have not yet studied or researched deep enough to my satisfaction.
I also find it hard to define Quran in terms of eternity or created or uncreated or whatever terminology. The twist comes from the intermingling concepts of predestination and eternal existence of something. The definition of eternal may not be the correct thing to use in this debate. We simply do not know what it means to be eternal because at the core of our belief is that nothing is eternal except Allah SWT. We simply cannot define what attributes of Allah SWT are like when they are eternal because we cannot experience eternity, everything we experience is time bound. I further seem to disagree with saying that life is eternal either in heaven or hell. To say that we will exist an eternity in either heaven or hell means that they themselves must be part of an eternity also. I think our existence is not eternal but rather never-ending once created. We clearly have a beginning which goes against the definiton of eternal. To be truthful we are trying to define something here, which we are not capable of defining or fathoming. Hence any effort to do so is destined to create a divide.
To try and encapsulate something eternal into a time-bound concept is inviting difference of opinion and dichotomy of something which cannot understand. There is no clear right or wrong in this debate and never will be by our intellectual capacity.
Re: The Implications of considering Quran the Creator or Created (khaliq or makhlooq)
'Khaliq' in the sense that Quran is eternal,
Humans are eternal aswel. there is a hadith wich says quran will ask for forgiveness of reciter from Allah on judgemanet day. so they cant be two gods. quran has to be created