The Husseini Lesson

Re: The Husseini Lesson

Personally I believe nothing could have gone wrong unless a third element came in play. The same who were operating as the khawarij. I am also not entirely convinced at the letters and discussions that exchanged between the two groups, although they are well documented. There is no way to prove that the letters themselves were not doctored in any way. The more I investigate this event the more unsure I become of any reasonable conclusion.

I do however believe there was an assassination of Imam Hussein that took place in Kerbala. I don't believe Yazid was to blame for it however. I don't believe Yazid was a person who was indulgent and a person who missed prayers as documented and then still appointed as the khalif, that just does not make sense. I do believe ameer Mu'awiyya decided to establish the promises from the various governors/high ranking people that they will pledge immediately after to his son - Yazid. I also believe the 5 who abstained which included Imam Hussein did so not because of any other reason than the fact that they believed it to be the wrong thing to do. That by the example of Sayyidina Ali (RA) when a khalif dies, then the ashura appoints - from the people of Madinah and the migrators from Makkah, not for a previous khalif decide.

What is interesting is that Mu'awiyya refrained from giving bayah at the time of Ali (RA) and that led to conflict, so it appears that after his time he wanted to ensure that a similar conflict does not occur by pre-establishing a "promise to appoint" when he was alive. This was undertaken under the guidance and advisory capacity of Mughira (RA) and certain things documented about him wanting to sow discord to the ummah I don't believe to be accurate either - in fact they are lies. Lies I say recorded by the 3rd element and transmitted by them as truth. In fact in such a society which depended so much on horse flown messenger communication - I would not be surprised if:

a) The Khawarij were horse men
b) The Khawarij were some how interfering in that communication trail between the two parties that were beginning to form as a result of their fitnah.

We hear the phrase "don't kill the messenger" - I think in this case that is probably exactly what we should have been looking to do.

The reason I give is that there is this letter that the Sunnis have documented to be written by Imam Hussein to Mu'awiyya at the time of the pre-electoral process and in no uncertain words Imam Hussein is alleged to have said "You are the biggest fitnah for this ummah" in a tone that looks far too similar to the dodgy additions that I have seen in the Bible. I can not for the life of me accept that Imam Hussein would speak with such contempt to anyone ... and furthermore I do not believe that Mu'awiyya would do the same.

If we go by "reason" and "faith" alone the story just does not add up despite the well documented references - however if what I am saying is true then a 3rd party can not only influence a war - but the involvement will also write history the way they want it to be written ... i.e. by controlling what is said and what reply is said ... For a surety if I feel I can respond in a manner that will not create fitnah I in many cases would have a different reply. A better one ... And knowing that they were people far more pious and intelligent than myself I cannot for the life of me accept such grave mistakes in their communication.

Realising this I believe the ones who were involved in the assassination of Uthman (RA), Ali (RA), Hasan (RA) and Hussein (RA) were all either connected to the khawarij or a part of them.

Re: The Husseini Lesson

psyah, it does not make sense to u b/c u have prefixed mindset b4 checking the facts…and it is certainly not easy given the personalities u revere as heroes and role models, and perfect students of the Prophet SAWW all of a sudden seeming hungry for this world and committing hideous crimes in the process…Khawarij were the distinct group against whom Imam Ali fought at Naharwan…they were Imam Ali’s mortal enemies…Muawiya on the other hand was the person who started the practice of cursing Imam Ali, along with his children and companions from the pulpit as well as prayers!..for 90 years Imam Ali was cursed from mosques until Umar bin Abdul Aziz put an halt to the practice…90 years of lies and propaganda and still the character of Ali shines like a beacon…Muawiya after all according to certain ppl is believed to part of ashra e mubbashira meaning he was given glad tiding of heaven in the world…well, I simply refuse to believe these notions that contradict Quran, hadith, historical facts, and even elementary logic…historians have tried to mix the facts and try to white wash the true characters of the oppressive kings but at the end of the day falsehood diminished and truth remains standing tall…certain historians wud write tht Abdul Malik bin Marwan rebuilt Kaaba but skip over very quicklt from the fact tht it was him who destroyed it too…without going in the details to upset this discussion…I will provide u a link to Sunni scholar’s comments abt Muawiya…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKLZxmklflo&feature=player_embedded#!

Re: The Husseini Lesson

Peace Nussairee

I started this discussion trying to understand the lesson we learn from the actions of Imam Hussein (RA). What was he teaching us? I have found some lessons … and will relay them here inshaAllah … what I do not however accept is the various character profiles that documented history has us believe. On this occasion Nussairee I am actually not accepting the documented versions that have been made popular. Part of the reason is that there are many conflicting versions that I have only come across and after doing a bit of research instead of getting clarity I am getting more confused. It can’t be because of my biases, because my biases were already accepting the idea that Yazid was not a good person and that he was responsible for the tragedy, but not anymore … can you believe that? After research I am finding it difficult to believe that Yazid had anything to do with the event itself although his acceptance of the title was elemental in the sequence of events that led to the massacre.

Rather I would say without asking me why I have begun to change my mind it is you due to your biases accused me of being what you expect a Sunni to be like.

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^my apologies if I came across that way.......but have u read the account of what Yazid actually did with Imam Hussain's head and his family when they were brought to his courtyard?.........he was quite openly boasting tht he had taken revenge from the family of Mohammad for the loss of Badr!!!!!!!

I actually am intrigued to know wht sources of history r u researching! actually i would like to take this opportunity to suggest group reading where 4 or 5 of us can simultaneously read major works of history like Tabari, Ibn Athir, Khaldoon and share what we read and cross analyse as we go through these books.........

Re: The Husseini Lesson

Good idea Nussairee. Psyah bhai, please let us know the sources you are referring to.

Re: The Husseini Lesson

Peace muqawwee321

Yes, in Tabari, part VI, p220, it states this:

Sayyiduna Hussein is speaking, "let me return to the place from where I have come, or allow me to go to Yazid, or else, leave me to proceed towards the frontiers".

Come again? Sayyiduna was asking to go to Yazid? I made nothing of it, but then we have this:

Ibid p194

'Ammar Duhani related, I requested Abu Ja'far (Imam Baqir), to tell me the story of Hussein's martyrdom in such a way as if I were present there. He said: "when mu'awiyyah died, Walid ibn 'Utba ibn Abu Sufyan was the governor of Madinah. Hence, he sent for Hussein to take the oath of allegiance. The latter asked for some reprieve and relaxation. So he (Walid) postponed the matter and Hussein set out for Makkah."

And then in the instruction that Mu'awiyyah gives Yazid. Ibid p179-80

"... As regards Hussein ibn Ali, the people of Iraq will not rest till they make him rise against you. If it turns out to be so, and he comes out against you and you manage to overcome him, forgive him as he is a near kin and has a great right. ..."

Then there are references that say Yazid cried at the martyrdom of Hussein (ra) and Yazid cursed ibn ziyad.

These may not be accepted by the Shi'a, but I find it odd that we have historical references that do U turns when they speak. Also for the negative refs there are also a share of other ones too that put better light on such persons.

So far I am concluding that Ibn Ziyad was responsible for the killing. I am claiming Imam Hussein to be partly responsible too ... Since despite much advice he still decided to go to Kufa, but it appeared that he was double-crossed by his own supporters, or was it this 3rd group of people who lured Hussein out posing to be his supporters? But it doesn't mean there is any blame on Imam Hussein, for sure a martyr is partly responsible for his own life, because he puts it in harms way.

I also found out the Hur ibn Yazid fought on the side of Imam Hussein and was probably the first one to be killed on that day of Karbala.

But ok let's go through each stage and discuss inshallah ... I think it is getting interesting.

Re: The Husseini Lesson

rather then the righteous getting the position that is decreed for them by Islam, such has been the state of affairs of Muslims tht anybody who either by hook or crook got to the seat of power are forcibly made to look “righteous” irrespective of whatever mischief they may create on earth…
of course we reject the reports that Imam Hussain wanted to go see Yazid or according to another report he wanted to pay allegiance to him…u may read abt it here http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/karbala-historical-resources/5.htm

Imam Hussein’s martyrdom was foretold by the Prophet according to numerous and continuous Sunni and Shia traditions…knowing this and knowing his status I don’t think it’s a wise thing to indicate that he acted hastily or unknowingly…
as far as character of Yazid go then his characteristics r noted by ALL the books of early history…his drinking, his open kufr and denial of Prophethood, his likeness of dancing girls and monkey pets…let me ask u if Ibn Ziyad was the perpetrator of the events of Karbala then it is strange that YAzid granted him full governorship of Kufa till calipha Yazid’s own death forcing Ibn Ziyad to run away…why was the remaining family of the Prophet SAWW made prisoners and paraded around the cities and then imprisioned…until this day u find graves of the children on path to Syria when children of the family of the Prophet SAWW kept on falling of the back of their rides and dying due to hardships of travel…what did Yazid do to punish Shimr, Ibn Saad?..oh, they lived to narrate hadiths!

Re: The Husseini Lesson

Peace Nussairee

So you knew about these other conflicting references? I don't know what happened to Ibn Ziyad afterwards, so for the time being I would be happy to take your word for it. It appears to me however that Imam Hussein never intended to pledge allegiance to Yazid, but set journey to Kufa on the deception that the Kufanites will rally for him. I believe that just like Sayyidina Ali (RA), Imam Hussein, had a problem with method of appointment rather than the person who was being appointed.

When Imam Hussein stated "our right" it is to be understood in the context of that letter in Nahj-ul-Balagha, from Imam Ali(RA) to Mu'awiyyah, that appointment should be the right of the Makkans and Medinans.

As for the monkey stuff, well that is a part that I am currently having problems with. It appears that certain reports are invalid or fabricated ... But I need to do more research.

Re: The Husseini Lesson

As far as I am concerned, Hazrat Imam Hussain's sacrifice is remembered not just Muslims, but Christians, Hindus, and Sikhs too remember it and revere his personality. Allama Iqbal has said "Musa o Firoun o Shabbir o Yazid, Ein dou qowat az hayat ayat padeed" (meaning that the battle from truth and falsehood is an eternal one and Hussain and Yazid is another example of it). Karbala's message is universal and that is why it appeals to people from across the variety of faith with everybody understanding it in their own way. Would it not be better for this discussion here to focus on Imam aali muqam's universal message and bypass our doctrinal differences just for once?

Re: The Husseini Lesson

of course history books r not and can not be perfect but that is our only source of knowing the events of the past..........and like I said earlier that falsehood by nature is relinquishing and not sustainable..............but it is important to keep a balance and try and read the reports from as many dimensions as possible to distinguish truth from falsehood...........this is the process of information gathering only...........the real process is the process of guidance which comes from the Lord of this universe.......
Anyway, u know Hussain was great grandson of Abdul Muttalib who faced the troops of Abraha in Mecca........his grandfather was Prophet Mohammad who battled all his life against very powerful enemies.....his father was Ali and his brother was Hasan who saw and dealt with it all.............so Imam Hussain was a man of insight growing up within the shadow of the above people...........he knew very well what he was doing..........do you think abdullah ibn Zubayr or Abdullah ibn Umar or even Muslim b Aqeel understood the political and social circumstances but Imam could not?...........this is something that even the Western academics have had the foresight to see past...........unfortunately some of the so called Muslims scholars have written so obviously to serve the ones they had to serve..........but such is the sacrifice of Imam Hussain's that it has made certain facts clear as daylight till the day of judgement for those who want to c and r granted the light by Allah SWT to see..........

btw that letter of nahjul balagha does not exactly say wht some of the websites suggest.........rather than taking my word for it u may refer to commentary of Sunni mutazila scholar Ibne Hadid's commentary under the letter........

Re: The Husseini Lesson

Peace Nussairee Bro

Have you ever heard name of Justice Syed Ameer Ali, a shia writer of many books. There is reference from his book in the following link.

http://www.al-islam.org/slavery/1.htm

I’ve read that he has written biography of Hazrat Sakeena (RA), which is a contradictory version to our normal understanding that she was died in Zandan soon after Shahadat of Hazrat Hussain (RA).

On page 132 of the book in the link below, the writer refer to Syed Ameer Ali in following words:

  1. The musical functions arranged by Hazrat Syeda Sakina Binte Hussain were attended by many influential people of Medina. Syed Ameer Ali has mentioned many such social functions organized by Hazrat Sakina and by Ayesha Binte Talha on the authority of Kitabul Aghani by Abul Faraj al-Ispahani. (1963)

Re: The Husseini Lesson

ibn ziyad definately was yazids man, but the for the others who have been attributed more blame in the actual martyredom they are all said to be have been addressed by Husein RA by name eg 'oh shimr did you not send me letters'.

now now, interesting point, everytime the Ahlelbayt decided not to fight they were attacked by their own supporters in this same town. Ali RA and Hassan RA were attacked, it most definately can be said that Hussain RA was heading beyond kufa at the time. insinuating that he was going towards shaam and it would seem those who sent him letters then attacked him. the reason being that he was not meeting the expectations of kufis.

if yazid did not punish ibn ziyad, this would be inline with previous caliphs.i am not aware of worldly punishment being meted out for similar incidents during the era of the companions although there was talk around the subject. no caliph (afaik) actually meted out punishment during their own caliphates. for example it is said Ali RA gave news of hellfire to the slayer of Talha RA, i am not aware of any worldly punishment for the incident.

Re: The Husseini Lesson

Justice Ameer Ali was not a Shia but Mutazila…so it happens that anyone who mentions any of the wrongdoings of the exclusive club of certain personalities is automatically declared a Shia just like maulana maudui was…
Anyway, I am only as familiar with these ideas as they appeared in Daily Dawn a few years back…I would like to see references from classic books of history so we can see what the other scholars have said about it…otherwise there is a new book out in the market on Islamic history every day…

Re: The Husseini Lesson

amusing what u guys r willing to pullout in an attempt to save the family of Abu Sufyan.......I won't comment on ur speculations and half guesses about the history but I will point out the sheer ignorance u have shown in ur comments about the caliphs.......to save Yazid u r accusing the righteous caliphs of ignoring the commands of God and the very basic function of a Just authority which is to carry out the injunctions prescribed by shariah......for ur reference, Abu Bakr ordered the killing of a very respected companion Malik bin Nuwayrah for refusing to accept caliph of the time and paying him zakat......umar bin khattab was strict about the commands of shariah to an extent that he lashed his own son, punished his governors regularly should they disobey such as in the case of ibn al aas who was called from egypt to receive punishment........3rd caliph had his half brother flogged for drinking and leading prayer in state of drunkenness......4th calipha only at Naharwan killed thousands of Khawarij......

Re: The Husseini Lesson

My mistake. "post Ali khilafat era" should read "during the khilafat of Ali".

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Few points I would like to highlight are:

-I will withheld the evidence against Yazid and his role in the tragedy of Karbala in fact lets just ignore the event of Karbala for a few seconds and then ponder over the answers to the following questions: Was it not his army that threw fireballs at the Kaaba and destroyed it? What about the incidents of the looting of Medinah? How many Sahabas were killed including inside the holy city of Mecca where bloodshed is forbidden? How many Muslim women were made lawful to be taken as prisoners and raped in Medina? Why was Prophet's mosque in Medina was turned into stable for horses of Syrian soldiers? Why was Abdullah ibn Zubayr claiming caliphate for himself? In a small period of over 3 years that Yazid ruled, he made no qualms in showing what he was made of.

-Relationship including correspondence between Imam Ali/Imam Hassan and Muawiya need to be looked at holistically and in the light of the events that took place then. These letters reveal a great deal. Imam Ali and the Ahlul Bayt's opinion about the caliphate is ONE and quite clear from both Shia and Sunni sources.

-Major difference between Muawiya and Yazid and their policy regarding Ahlul Bayt is that the former never asked Imam Hasan nor Imam Hussein for allegiance to his rule. The later was adamant that they do so at any cost.

-The term 'Shia' and 'Khawarij' need to be understood before it being thrown around. Shia of Ali is a group with distrinct beliefs both pre-Karbala and post Karbala when they are seen rising in the shape of Tawwabun and Mukhtar movements.

Re: The Husseini Lesson

That line from Dr. Iqbal sums it up nicely. House of guidance can not give in to the house of corruption.

[23:71] If the Truth had been in accord with their desires, truly the heavens and the earth, and all beings therein would have been in confusion and corruption! Nay, We have sent them their admonition, but they turn away from their admonition.

I will post the sermon of Imam Hussein which was delivered in the field of Mina in front of thousands of Muslims that were there for the pilgrim. It highlights the role of the scholars of Islam.

Re: The Husseini Lesson

Imam Hussein's speech in Mina

O people, take lesson from the counsel God gave to His friends when He
rebuked the rabbis by saying: "Why do the scholars and rabbis not forbid
their sinful talk and consumption of what is unlawful? Truly what they
have done is evil." (5:63)

And God says: "Cursed by the tongue of David and Jesus, son of Mary, are
those among the Children of Israel who disbelieved on account of their
rebellion and transgression. They did not prevent each other from
committing vile and corrupt acts; surely what they did was abominable!"
(5:78-79)

God reproached them because they saw with their own eyes the oppressors
committing vile and corrupt acts, but did not stop them, out of love for
the favours they received from them as well as fear of persecution and
injury. However, God says: "Fear not men, but fear Me." (5:44) And He
says: "The believing men and women are friends and protectors to each
other; they enjoin the good and forbid the evil (they perform the prayer,
and pay the alms, and obey God and His messenger. They - upon them God
shall have mercy; God is Almighty, All wise)." (9:71)

God mentions the duty of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil (al
amr bi al-ma'ruf wa al-nahy 'an al-munkar) before all other duties,
because He knows that if it is performed and is established in the society
all other duties, the easy and the difficult, will also become
established. The reason for this is that al-amr bi al-ma'ruf wa al-nahy
'an al-munkar means summoning people to Islam, as well as resistance
against injustice, opposing and struggling against oppressors, and
endeavouring to ensure that public wealth and income derived from war are
distributed in accordance with the just laws of Islam, and that taxes are
collected, levied, and expended in due and proper form.

O scholars, who are celebrated and enjoy good repute on account of your
learning! You have achieved a good name in society because of your good
will. It is on account of God that men venerate you and stand in awe of
you, so that even the powerful fear you and the weak honour you, and those
who are not subject to you and over whom you hold no authority grant you
favours they deny themselves. When the people do not receive their due,
they seek your intercession, and you walk in the street with the majesty
of kings and princes. Have you not earned all this respect and prestige
because of the people's hopes that you will implement God's laws, even
though in most instances you have failed to do so?

You have taken lightly your duties as leaders. You have neglected the
rights of the oppressed and the lowly, but have assiduously pursued what
you regard as your personal rights. You have not spent your money or
risked your life for the sake of the One Who gave you life, nor have you
fought against any group or tribe for the sake of God. Nevertheless, you
desire - and regard it as your due - that He should grant you paradise,
the company of the Prophet, and security from His chastisement in the
Hereafter. You have such expectations of God, I fear that the full weight
of His wrath will descend upon you, for although it is by His might and
glory that you have achieved high rank, you show no respect to those who
truly know God, while you yourself enjoy respect among God's creatures on
His account.

(I am also afraid for you for another reason: ) you see the covenant
enacted with God being violated and trampled underfoot, yet you show
no anxiety. When it comes to the covenant enacted with your fathers, you
become greatly disturbed and anxious if they are violated in part, but the
pledges you have given to the Most Noble Messenger are a matter of
complete indifference to you.

The blind, the dumb, and the chronically ill everywhere lack protection in
towns and no mercy is shown them. But you neither behave in accordance
with your function and rank, nor you support or pay any regard to those
who do. You purchase your safety from the oppressive ruling powers with
flattery, cajolery, and compromise.

All these activities have been forbidden to you by God, and He has,
moreover, commanded you to forbid each other to engage in them, but you
pay no attention. The calamity that has befallen you is greater than what
has befallen others, for the true rank and degree of ulama has been taken
away from you. The administration of the country and the issuing of
decrees and ordinances should actually be trusted to religious scholars
who are guardians of God's ordinances concerning what is permitted and
what is forbidden. But your position has been usurped from you, for no
other reason than that you have abandoned the truth (al-haqq), and have
disagreed about the nature of the Sunnah, despite the existence of clear
proofs.

Had you the forbearance to endure adversities and hardships for the sake
of God, then all proposed regulations (God's affairs) would be brought to
you for your approval and for you to issue; authority would lie in your
hands. But you allowed the oppressors to take away your functions and
God's affairs (i.e. government) to fall into their hands, so that they
administer them by resorting to ambiguities and make arbitrariness and the
satisfaction of lust their consistent practice. What enabled them to gain
control of government was your fleeing in panic from (inevitable) death
and your love of life, which shall in all certainty depart from you. As a
consequence of that mentality, you have delivered the powerless masses
into the clutches of the oppressors. While some cringe like slaves under
the yoke of the oppressors, and others have been reduced to destitution in
regard to their livelihood, the rulers run the affairs of the government
in accordance with their whims, earning ignominy and disgrace for
themselves with their licentiousness, following evil counselors and
showing impudence toward God. One of their appointed spokesmen mounts the
pulpit (minbar) in each city. The country is defenseless before them,
and their hands grab freely whatever they want of it. The people are
their slaves and are powerless to defend themselves. One of the governors
is a dictator by nature, malevolent and rancorous; another represses his
wretched subjects ruthlessly; and still another refuses in his absolutism
to recognize either God or the Day of Resurrection! It is not strange -
how can one think it strange - that society is in the clutches of a
cunning oppressor whose tax collectors are oppressors and whose governors
feel no compassion or mercy toward the believers under their rule.

It is God who will judge concerning what is at dispute among us and
deliver a decisive verdict concerning all that occurs among us.

O God! You know that everything we did was not prompted by rivalry for
political power, nor for such a search for wealth and abundance; rather it
was done to demonstrate to men the shining principles and values of Your
religion, to reform the affairs of Your land, to protect and secure the
indisputable rights of Your oppressed servants, and to act in accordance
with the duties You have established and the norms, laws, and ordinances
You have decreed.

So (O scholars of religion!) You are to help us reach this goal, win back
our rights from those powers who have considered it acceptable to wrong
you and who have attempted to put out the light kindled by your Prophet.
God suffices us - upon Him do we rely, to Him do we turn, and to Him shall
we return.

Al-Tawhid, Vol VII, No. 4

Re: The Husseini Lesson

Salaam Abbas,

Jazakum Allah khair for the efforts. I just saw the sermons of Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain are also available in Urdu audio!

Imam Hasan: http://www.hussainiat.com/audio/books/Album.aspx?ALID=1377
Imam Hussain from Madina to Karbala: http://www.hussainiat.com/audio/books/Album.aspx?ALID=1333

Wasalam.

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Sermon Before Leaving Mecca

Before departing, al-Husain (‘a) stood up to deliver a sermon. He said,

“All praise is due to Allah The Will of Allah be done. There is no might except in Allah Allah has blessed His Messenger. Death is inscribed on Adam's children like a necklace on a girl's neck. My passion to be reunited with my ancestors is like that of Jacob for Joseph, and the demise I shall soon meet is better for me. I see my limbs being torn by speeding steeds in the desert between al-Nawawis and Karbala’, so they shall fill, through my death, hollow bellies and starved pouches. There is no avoiding a day recorded by the Pen. Whatever pleases Allah also pleases us, we Ahl al-Bayt. We shall be patient as we face His trial, and He shall give us in full the rewards due to those who persevere. The Prophet's offspring shall not deviate from His path Rather, they shall be gathered before him in the presence of the most Holy One. His eyes shall be cooled upon seeing them assembled, and he shall fulfill his promise. Anyone among us who is ready to sacrifice himself and is determined to meet Allah should join our departing party, for I shall depart in the morning if Allah Almighty so wills”

Ibn Tawus, Al-Luhuf, p. 33. Ibn Nama, p. 20.