I am learning the process myself, but by this reference it is clear that Kufa was already known to be a Yazid stronghold, secondly the lay people in Kufa were getting sick of the Yazid government and hence wrote to Imam Hussein after they heard that he went to Makkah for Hajj. It must have been the case that the Yazid hard liners left Kufa to go to Makkah and that when Imam Hussein cut his pilgrimage short to avoid conflict. After ummrah Imam Hussein left Makkah … now this is the part I am trying to get my head around.
Despite the advice given to Imam Hussein by Abdullah bin Muti’ Adawi, Imam Hussein left Makkah to go to Kufa on account of the letters he had received? Yet he left Makkah to avoid the assassins … Of course both can be true … that Makkah had to be evacuated but then why go to Kufa ??? It was a stronghold of the oppressive regime? It is understood that a small skirmish was levelled outside Makkah … however, at this point in time … we loose sight of the travels of Imam Hussein … They must have passed Madinah completely … why? … Remember Madinah is between Kufa and Makkah. Then we pick up on the part where his caravan was prevented from entering either Madinah or Kufa … So I am surprised how water supply can be stopped over such a great distance?
The motive of where exactly was Imam Hussein heading and why is unknown … or is it? The letter given to his brother Muhammad … details the answer. It appears that Imam Hussein was very close to Kufa when the battle came to him … He addressed the people and said that he would rule if they would elect him, but if they changed their mind then he would turn back …
Is it therefore not true that Imam Hussein was avoiding the fight?
… Imam Hussein is supposed to have been going towards Kufa from Makkah the 3rd stage of his 14 step journey in a place called Batn-er-Rumma - east of Madinah … however what Pagluu posted earlier seems to conflict with this:
Another thing that Pagluu you have written I doubt it is accurate:
[quote] - Just as he leaves Mecca he was confronted by a small contingent sent by the governor Umru b Saad b Aas under the command of Yahya bin Saeed. After a small battle the attackers fled away.
[/quote]
After leaving Makkah Imam Hussein (RA) was in post Hajj attire. Not in war clothes ... How would he have prepared in time? Secondly in the link I provided earlier in post #44 there is no mention of the battle outside Makkah ...
But before we get bogged down by detail my initial question was "What can learn about from the actions and decisions of Imam Hussein (RA)"
Please bear these in mind when working out exactly what did happen ...
Salaam guys. Thank you for all your input. I spent good part of my weekend researching the list I put down in my last post. Due to different restraints there was a large amount of information that I skipped (mainly because understanding it before putting it down in writing required a great deal more research, time, and far more capabilities than I posses). I believe that it is due to this skipped information that you guys might be having difficulty joining the dots. I suggest that if you guys are keen to study the events in their proper sequence then you refer to the sources that cover it in greater details. I will put them down here.
I have not been able to find the exact date of when the news of Imam Hussein refusing to pay allegiance and leaving Madina spread to Kufa. Logically thinking one can assume that it would not have taken long for as soon as the news of the death of Muawiya would have reached Kufa then the people there- specially the group known as the Shia of Ali- naturally would have been interested in the moves of Imam Hussein. This is particularly that they had been forced to sit quiet for a very long time (close to 20 years!) due to he peace pact signed with Muawiya by Imam Hasan and honoured also by Imam Hussein.
I am learning the process myself, but by this reference it is clear that Kufa was already known to be a Yazid stronghold, secondly the lay people in Kufa were getting sick of the Yazid government and hence wrote to Imam Hussein after they heard that he went to Makkah for Hajj. It must have been the case that the Yazid hard liners left Kufa to go to Makkah and that when Imam Hussein cut his pilgrimage short to avoid conflict. After ummrah Imam Hussein left Makkah ... now this is the part I am trying to get my head around.
Despite the advice given to Imam Hussein by Abdullah bin Muti' Adawi, Imam Hussein left Makkah to go to Kufa on account of the letters he had received? Yet he left Makkah to avoid the assassins ... Of course both can be true ... that Makkah had to be evacuated but then why go to Kufa ??? It was a stronghold of the oppressive regime? It is understood that a small skirmish was levelled outside Makkah ... however, at this point in time ... we loose sight of the travels of Imam Hussein ... They must have passed Madinah completely ... why? ... Remember Madinah is between Kufa and Makkah. Then we pick up on the part where his caravan was prevented from entering either Madinah or Kufa ... So I am surprised how water supply can be stopped over such a great distance?
The motive of where exactly was Imam Hussein heading and why is unknown ... or is it? The letter given to his brother Muhammad ... details the answer. It appears that Imam Hussein was very close to Kufa when the battle came to him ... He addressed the people and said that he would rule if they would elect him, but if they changed their mind then he would turn back ...
Is it therefore not true that Imam Hussein was avoiding the fight?
What makes you say that Kufa was a Yazid stronghold?
My reading is that Iraq was the most tricky of the territory for the Ummayads. Infact I will try to present the part of advice of Muawiya to Yazid (or it might have been Mughera the governer of Muawiya to Kufa) where he talked about the tricky nature of the area. Kufa was the last area to come under control of the Ummaya government.
Imam Hussein's dialogues with everybody offer a great deal of insight into what Imam's relationship with the person he was talking to was. For example, his exchange with Ummul Momineen Umme Salma is very contrasting to his exchange with say Abdullah Ibn Zubayr. They both showed sympathy to Imam Hussein but Imam reacted to them and answered them in a very different manner.
where exactly did the meeting with Abdullah ibn Muti take place?!?!
Maqtal Abi Mukhnaf say that it took place on the way to Mecca. If you find a more precise location in any of the books then it will be great that you let us know.
Like I said in the above post. Apart from establishing the exact location and timing of the meeting, a very important factor we have to keep in mind is the personality of Abdullah ibn Muti. Imam had spent a great deal of his time in Kufa and this city was a major city of the time (most populated) where resided few albeit prominent Shia (note: we can not view this term in the context of Shia-Sunni divide of today). Abdullah ibn Muti could have well assumed that Imam will head the way of Kufa.
Another thing that Pagluu you have written I doubt it is accurate:
After leaving Makkah Imam Hussein (RA) was in post Hajj attire. Not in war clothes ... How would he have prepared in time? Secondly in the link I provided earlier in post #44 there is no mention of the battle outside Makkah ...
But before we get bogged down by detail my initial question was "What can learn about from the actions and decisions of Imam Hussein (RA)"
Please bear these in mind when working out exactly what did happen ...
Psyah, that link is a work of someone amateur like myself thus it is not in details. We must try and research from the primary sources of the event to get a better and detailed picture. If I say that "he was attacked just as he left Mecca..." then it could well mean once we read in detailed that he was attacked the next day or after 2 days of leaving Mecca.
I know that the point of this thread is about what we can learn from Imam Hussain but these details along the way are good too in a way that they offer us a chance to learn a few things from the historical perspective. I was mainly wanting to focus on the words and khutbat of Imam (as). In the end though I will try to write down some of the lessons that I see in the sacrifice of Imam (as).
I am intrigued by this background information. Pagluu, I will try my best to go through the books of maqatil and hopefully that will answer some of the other questions I have in my mind. What do you mean in your comments that Shia of that time and the schism within Muslims of that period was different from how it is today?
I believe the following poetic statement by Farazabad sums it up for me:
**- Farazdad, the famous poet, meets Imam and tell him that "the heart of the people of Kufa is with you but their sword is against you".
**To me "their sword" is the governance and regime of Kufa ... although the people in Kufa may have been "pro-Hussain" the regime obviously was not. This is why I called it a Yazid stronghold, also the fact that it was the trickiest to take over it would translate to Yazid putting his most fierce men there to maintain "control/oppression" - this is what I call obvious statecraft, by an oppressive regime.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the event of Kerbala could have happened at all if the Kufa forces were even neutral let alone pro-Imam Hussein ...
I am intrigued by this background information. Pagluu, I will try my best to go through the books of maqatil and hopefully that will answer some of the other questions I have in my mind. What do you mean in your comments that Shia of that time and the schism within Muslims of that period was different from how it is today?
You should try to read them. You will find Abu Mukhnaf's accounts are mostly preserved in Tabari's Tarikh.
Question about schism will need a lot more political analysis of that time and beyond. Basically there was a constant minority group that believed that all forms of authority, including temporal, is the right of Imam Ali and his children since they are the lineage of the Prophet (saww). Other groups slightly changed between eras in conjunction with the political environment of the time.
I believe the following poetic statement by Farazabad sums it up for me:
**- Farazdad, the famous poet, meets Imam and tell him that "the heart of the people of Kufa is with you but their sword is against you".
**To me "their sword" is the governance and regime of Kufa ... although the people in Kufa may have been "pro-Hussain" the regime obviously was not. This is why I called it a Yazid stronghold, also the fact that it was the trickiest to take over it would translate to Yazid putting his most fierce men there to maintain "control/oppression" - this is what I call obvious statecraft, by an oppressive regime.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the event of Kerbala could have happened at all if the Kufa forces were even neutral let alone pro-Imam Hussein ...
Yes, Farazdaq summed it up really well.
If we divide people in three groups, 1) Pro Imam Hussain 2) Neutral and 3) Anti-Imam Hussain, then yes indeed it was minority that belonged to the first group albeit their feelings and loyalty to him was very strong. A large majority was neutral and that is shown by the fact that Nauman ibn Bashir, the governor was reluctant to crack down upon them before Yazid replaced him with Ibn Ziyad. Nauman Ibn Bashir said at one occasion that even his own family is against the caliph so how is he suppose to condemn and punish people. Other factors that indicate that majority of Kufians were neutral is shown by the number that got along with Muslim ibn Aqeel (he even led prayers at the mosque of Kufa!), the way people welcomed Ibn Ziyad when he deceived them into thinking that he was Imam Hussein, and even the behavior of the commanders of Yazid from Kufa such as Hurr, or Umar Ibn Saad seemed reasonably respectful towards Imam Hussain. I think this neutral group shifted their position from active support to no support or even opposition due to the approach taken Ibn Ziyad. He lied (in the case of Hani ibn Urwah), he deceived (in the way he entered the city), he punished (Hani, Meythum, Rasheed, Muslim), he threatened (their stipendiary, and lives of not only the people but their families), he bribed (people to spread propoganda such as that Imam Hussein has turned back to Syria to meet Yazid to negotiate, or that Yazid is sending a big army to Kufa to look after opposition), he used religious propoganda (Qadi Shurayh Fatwa that Hussein is wajibul qatl for opposing the Imam of time) etc.
In Mecca, al-Husain (‘a) wrote one copy of a letter that he arranged to be circulated to the five individuals charged with collecting the khums from the Muslims of Basra. They were: Malik Ibn Musmi’ al-Bakri, al-Anaf Ibn Qays, al-Munthir Ibn Jarud, Mas’ud Ibn ‘Amr, Qays Ibn al-Haytham, and ‘Amr Ibn ‘Ubayd Ibn Mu’ammar. He sent his letter with one of his slaves named Sulayman and its text was as follows;
“Allah chose Muhammad (S) from among His creation and blessed him with being His Prophet. He chose him to convey His Message, then He took him away after he had advised His servants and conveyed the Message with which he was entrusted. We are his family, supporters, wais, heirs, and the most worthy of all people of his status. Yet our people usurped our right, so we put up with it out of fear of disunity and out of love for people's safety, knowing that we were most worthy of what belongs to us than those who took it away from us. I am sending my messenger with this letter to invite you to the Book of Allah and to the Sunnah of His Prophet, for this Sunnah has been killed, while bid’a has already been revived. If you listen to me, I shall show you the path of guidance.”
You should try to read them. You will find Abu Mukhnaf's accounts are mostly preserved in Tabari's Tarikh.
Question about schism will need a lot more political analysis of that time and beyond. Basically there was a constant minority group that believed that all forms of authority, including temporal, is the right of Imam Ali and his children since they are the lineage of the Prophet (saww). Other groups slightly changed between eras in conjunction with the political environment of the time.
So which city had the Shias in most number? what was the role of the people of Madina and Mecca during the event of Karbala?
Looking at the post Ali khilafat era, Kufa definitely had the personalities that made the backbone of the Shia of Imam Ali. In the battle of Siffein for example, more than 70 Badari companions were fighting along Imam Ali. Most of the important personalities had moved to Iraq from Medina. That was the city where most of the political activities was happening may be also because next generation of people in Medina had gotten accustomed to relatively comfortable life whereas Kufa was the garrison town and very much politically active . That is why people like Abdullah ibn Zubair left Medina as they found that Yazid was after them to seek allegiance. Imam Hussein had large family in Medina but there would have been possible danger of assassination as in the case of Imam Ali, Imam Hasan or in the early days, Saad bin Ubada where opposition could be killed and blamed labelled on an individual (in the case of Imam Ali on a khariji Ibn Muljim, in the case of Imam Hasan his wife Joada binte Ashas, and in the case of Ibn Ubada the jinns!).
afaik the quote, about sword of people of kufa, was famously first said by imam Hasan RA around the time he was stabbed. farazdad could only be repeating what was said unless he himself was a well travelled man, and there is a problem with the statement being primarily attributed to imam hassan RA
anyway back on topic, i see imam Husein RA believing in the nobility of the muslims at large, this for me is amazing taqwa because it is a belief of al-islam, and not something, we would consider, apt for the conditions of shaam and iraq
Looking at the post Ali khilafat era, Kufa definitely had the personalities that made the backbone of the Shia of Imam Ali. In the battle of Siffein for example, more than 70 Badari companions were fighting along Imam Ali. Most of the important personalities had moved to Iraq from Medina. ...
bro, during the khilafat of Imam Ali AS yes he had his followers move to Kufa with him......but Muawiya ruled Kufa for 20 years and more and during this time he had executed and imprisoned the followers of Imam Ali AS.......may of them left for Yemen and other places........I will quote u a passage of dialogue between Hani ibn Urwa who was from Kufa and ibn ziyad, whose father was governer of Kufa for Muawiya.......
"Don't you know Hani, when my father came to this land, he did not spare the life of any one of the Shi'a except for your father and Hujr? (And) You know what happened to Hujr".
(History of Tabari, English translation - Volume 19 page 38)