THE GLORIOUS QURAN!

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Sala’am brothers:

The below excerpt was posted in the Forum back on Aug '99; I was going through it again and, wonder why there was no comments on it by our members?

1)Do you all agree on its authencity? Especiallly about Caliph Usman ordering the Quran be re-written and later burnt all the codices of the Original Quran.

  1. My understanding is that the Quran was first complied by Hazrat Abu Bakr; Is this understanding correct?

  2. What about the author Sheikh Abd El-Fatah El-Kady who wrote the book The Koran - its History and Tests; The excerpt produced below is quoted from pages 14 and 55.

I would appreciate comments by the knowledgeable scholars on this Forum, Thank You.

Excerpt produced from the book: The Koran - its History and Tests:

Sheikh Abd El-Fatah El-Kady wrote in his book Al Mushaf Al-Shareef (The Koran - Its History and Tests),pages 14 and 55.
The Koran was not delivered to Muhammad all at once. It came piecemeal according to the
events and occasions, as we read in the Koran. [It is] a Koran which we have divided [into partsform time to time], intervals: We have revealed it by stages (Surat Al-Isra 17:106)

He continues: The Koran was written during Prophet Muhammad’s (pbuh)life, on the branches of palm trees, on thin stones,on paper, on skin, on shoulders and side bones of animals.

All of the Koran was written during Prophet Muhammad’s life, but was not collected in one volume. Its suras were not organized. It was scattered on the branches of palm trees, skin and in the memories or breasts of Muhammad’s “close friends” (Al-Sahaba in Arabic).

Not only were the Koranic writings disorganized, but there were seven different versions of them. The reason for these different versions of the Koran is that the Koran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad in seven different ways (Al-Mushaf Al-Shareef, page 64).

Prophet Muhammad said in the Hadith: The Koran has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it that which is easier for you (Sahih-al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, page 510). Tabari, the great expositor of the Koran, said that the difference between, the seven versions of the Koran (Al-Ahruf Al-Sabaa) was not in the meaning but in the words. To illustrate: A person can use the word grace,gracefulness. Or the work goods, possessions, or property. But the fact is that the difference in those seven versions were not purely of words but at times related to the basic content of the Koran’s text itself.

After Prophet Muhammad’s death (pbuh), at the time of caliph Abu-Bakr,many of those who had memorized the Koran died while fighting the apostates in the battle of " Alyamama, "Omar feared that the death of those men would result in the loss of a great portion of the Koran and suggested to Abu-Bakr that the Koran should be collected in one volume. Abu-Bakr was reluctant to do that, because Muhammad did not collect the Koran in one volume during his life. After much discussion Omar persuaded Abu-Bakr to order the collection of the Koran.

Hazrat Abu-Bakr ordered Aid Bin Sabot to do the job (Al-Mush Al-Shareef, page 59,60). By Allah! If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Koran. Zaid Ibn Sabit said. Then I said to Abu-Bakr, " How will you do something which Allah’s Apostle did not do?" Abu-Bakr said " By Allah, it is a good thing" (Sahih-al-Bukhari, Part 6, page 477).

It is quite clear that the collection of the Koran is something which Prophet Muhammad did not do. It is also clear that the Koran was not completely written in one volume during Prophet Muhammad’s life. This is why Hazrats Omar and Abu-Bakr feared the loss of great portions of the Koran, If the men who memorized it should die. Therefore Zaid Ibn Sabit agreed to collect the various pieces of the Koran. However, when Islam became the religion of many countries, every country used the version of the Koran which was known among them: the Syrians read AbiKaab’s version, the people of Kofa read Abdallah Ibn Massoud’s version, others read Abu
Moussa Alashaby’s version and so on.

When Caliph Uthman took the caliphate, he was confronted by such confusion and sedition concerning the reading of the Koran in the different Islamic countries that he ordered it to be rewritten. Uthaman ordered Zaid Ibn Sabit and three other men form Quraysh, Abdullah Ibn Al-Zubeer,Saeed Ibn El-Uss, and Abdelrahman Ibn Al-Harith Ibn Hesham, to rewrite the Koran.

It was Uthman’s order to the scribes:
" If you disagree with Zaid Ibn Sabit in anything of the Koran,write it in the language of Quraysh, because the Koran was revealed in the language of Quraysh." They did. (Al-Mushaf Al-Shareef, Pages 66,70).

After Uthman competed his Koran he forced all the Islamic countries to have one Koran -and banned all other codices. He finished the matter by burning all other codices of the Koran.

Dr. Taha Hussein , a well known author, college professor, and minister of education in Egypt, wrote in his book Al-Fitnato Al-Korba (The Great Sedition): The prophet Muhammad said: “The Koran was revealed in seven dialects all of them are right
and perfect.” When Uthman banned whichever he banned from the Koran, and burned
whichever he burned of it, he banned passages Allah has revealed and burned parts of the Koran which were given to the Muslims by the messenger of Allah. He appointed a small group of the Sahaba (close friends of Muhammad) to rewrite the Koran and left out those who heard the prophet and memorized what he said. This is why Ibn Massoud was angry, because he was one of the best men who memorized the Koran. He said that he took from the mouth of the prophet seventy suras of the Koran while Zaid Ibn Sabit was yet a young lad.

When Ibn Massoud objected to the burning of the other codices of the Koran, Uthman took him out of the mosque with violence, and struck him to the ground, and broke one of his ribs (The Great Sedition, pages 160,161,181,182).

It is very clear that much of the orginal Koran was burned, while other parts were rewritten. How can we reconcile these historical facts with the following words of the Koran? Nay, this is a Glorious Koran inscribed] in a Tablet preserved (Sarat Al-Buru 85:21,22). That this is indeed a Koran most honorable in a book well guarded ( Sarat Al-Waqiah 56:77,78).

If the Koran was inscribed in “a tablet preserved,” and in “a book well-guarded,” why was it necessary for Utham to rewrite the Koran? How could he burn the other codices? Why were there other codices in the first place? These are very serious questions regarding a book said to be God’s word.

2

namaste :)

The Qur~an was memorised by so many people it was quite easy to collect all the pieces into one book and verify authenticity.

The problem was when Qur~an was translated into other languages, differences set in so this si why all translations were not accepted as authentic and were burned.

If the Koran was inscribed in “a tablet preserved,” and in “a book well-guarded,” why was it necessary for Utham to rewrite the Koran? How could he burn the other codices? Why were there other codices in the first place?

Like I just said, the false stuff was removed and burned which proves that the book was well guarded.

Looks like facedown's been paying a visit to the hindu run website which spews anti-islam filth. I wonder why?

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited January 31, 2000).]

3

Xtreme,
Creating DIVERSION again are ya?
Your paranoia will be the end of you!

Dear Readers:I am quotting excerpts from a book and the author's name is mentioned in my post; I am asking re: authenticity of the author and its book; and, your clarification in this matter will be appreciated .

4

HMCQ

Dear Moderator,
Could you pls comment on this article; other knowledgeable readers have kept quiet - I can appreciate why, with all this back stabbing going on.
Thnx

5

The books you cite I have not gone thru , so I am not at liberty to give an opinion on this matter. I am interested in what you think of it? that is do you beleive in the authenticity of the quran or not? .. Someone once told me, religion is like sience ... if we question the basic axioms of mathematics, then mathematics would not exist and that is true here too.

By the way you did not mention where this auther lived when he complied this work and in what century . if he was not living during the Prophet's (PHUB) time, then on whose work did he base his work. also would you be kind enough to let me know where I can get his actual text as against reading it off the web
Thanks.

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
**Sala'am brothers:

The below excerpt was posted in the Forum back on Aug '99; I was going through it again and, wonder why there was no comments on it by our members?

1)Do you all agree on its authencity? Especiallly about Caliph Usman ordering the Quran be re-written and later burnt all the codices of the Original Quran.

2) My understanding is that the Quran was first complied by Hazrat Abu Bakr; Is this understanding correct?

3) What about the author Sheikh Abd El-Fatah El-Kady who wrote the book The Koran - its History and Tests; The excerpt produced below is quoted from pages 14 and 55.

I would appreciate comments by the knowledgeable scholars on this Forum, Thank You.

**
[/quote]

6

Can I put my two cents.

The dilemma of us Muslims is that we take ourselves as an authority on Islam, just because we are born Muslim. But maybe, some of us don't think that way. That is why, Faceups issue is remained untouched by most us. This attitude of the forum's community is not necessarily a reflection of their indifferent behavior but a mere acceptance of their lack of knowledge on this topic. I for myself, very humbly think that I am also a part of that ignorant group (and this is not necessarily a bad thing). But again, on behalf of all the ignorant people, I have to say something.

The confusion among most of the people is that Quran was written (as in "writing a book by an author"). The fact is that Quran was simply revealed on Prophet. According to the faith, teh whole Quran was brought down to the Seventh heaven (aasmaan) and was revealed on Prophet, in small parts. The Quran which was saved as/at/on "Loh-e-Mehfooz" is in the same format as the Quran we see now. This is the reason that in Namaaz, one is required to follow the sequence of Sura in each Rakaa't, as they are in the compiled form (current form) and not the sequence in which those Sura's were revealed. As Quran was being revealed, the responsibility taken by many Sahaba's was not just to memorize it but to know, where that piece is going to fit in the whole Quran. This is what Hazrat Abu Bakr did as he compiled the Quran in a way, it was suppose to be compiled.

Quran was not revealed in Seven versions. Quran is allowed to be recited in seven different ways (accent or dialect). So a Chinese Muslim, when reciting the Quran, can get the same blessings as an arabic Muslim (when he is reciting it).

As Quran was revealed in Arabic (in Qureshi dialect of arabic, if you may), it was not a need to put punctuation marks on each word as Qureshis knew exactly, how to pronounce each word. But when people from other countries started reading it, they started pronouncing the words in their own way. People from Pakistan don't need to put punctuation marks (zair, zabur, paish, etc) when reading Urdu but a person who is learning Urdu needs to know the difference between the pronunciation of, let's say, basaat (chess board) or bissaat (dare, courage). These two words are written exactly the same way except for "zair" and "zabur" on/under first letter. The need of punctuating the Quran was felt in Usmaan's era. That is why he ordered to destroy all the copies of Quran which were circulating in other countries and republished the Quran with punctuation marks (and that is why he gets the credit of it and not Hazrat Abu Bakr).

I hope, this expalantion might helped a little.

Enough Said

Tariq Khan

P.S. Mr. Xtreme, just because you don't know the answer of a question does not make the inquirer, a hindu.

7

Tariq,

Thanks for your response. No, I do not know much about the author, I was hoping to find out myself.

8

Am I seeing things or is that THE Sher Khan?

9

Yes Khala Muzna, this is "Aaap ka Bhanja" Sher Khan. How is Khaloo?

10

Questions re: the Quran!

1)It is very clear that much of the orginal Quran was burned, while other parts were rewritten.
How can we reconcile these historical facts with the following words of the Koran? Nay, this is a Glorious Koran inscribed] in a Tablet preserved (Sarat Al-Buru 85:21,22). That this is indeed a Koran most honorable in a book well guarded ( Sarat Al-Waqiah 56:77,78).

2) If the Koran was inscribed in “a tablet preserved,” and in “a book well-guarded,” why was it necessary for Caliph Umar to rewrite the Koran?

3) Why were the original codifices of the Quran destroyed by Caliph Umar and close associates of the Prophet brutalized to accepting the changes?

In replying, pls confine answers to the above. Thank you.

11

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
**Xtreme,
Creating DIVERSION again are ya?
Your paranoia will be the end of you!

Dear Readers:I am quotting excerpts from a book and the author's name is mentioned in my post; I am asking re: authenticity of the author and its book; and, your clarification in this matter will be appreciated .

**
[/quote]

faceup:

I would like to further our debate on this issue. But before we proceed I like to know your faith. I simply can't allow people on this forum without disclosing their faith and putting forth their sources/references bash Islaam. You faith will give me a sense of reference and I would know your intention and how to address them.
I am looking forward to hearing from you soon.

Regards,
BB

Bubble Buster
"You mess with the BEST
You LOSE like the REST!"

[This message has been edited by Bubble Buster (edited April 04, 2000).]

12

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
**Questions re: the Quran!

1)It is very clear that much of the orginal Quran was burned, while other parts were rewritten.
How can we reconcile these historical facts with the following words of the Koran? Nay, this is a Glorious Koran inscribed] in a Tablet preserved (Sarat Al-Buru 85:21,22). That this is indeed a Koran most honorable in a book well guarded ( Sarat Al-Waqiah 56:77,78).

2) If the Koran was inscribed in “a tablet preserved,” and in “a book well-guarded,” why was it necessary for Caliph Umar to rewrite the Koran?

3) Why were the original codifices of the Quran destroyed by Caliph Umar and close associates of the Prophet brutalized to accepting the changes?

In replying, pls confine answers to the above. Thank you.

**
[/quote]

faceup:

*faceup: “It is very clear that much of the orginal Quran was burned, while other parts were rewritten.” *

NO, it is not clear, because it is your prejudicial statement. You have been judgements without putting forth your proof, facts. By the way prejudice is an opinion without judgement. A judgement requires forensic and empirical results/proof. SO WHERE IS YOUR PROOF? Since you are falsely alleging this so burden of proof is on you. We Muslims are not required and/or even obligated to do or respond anything. Bring the proof please.

  • faceup:” How can we reconcile these historical facts with the following words of the Koran? Nay, this is a Glorious Koran inscribed] in a Tablet preserved (Sarat Al-Buru 85:21,22). That this is indeed a Koran most honorable in a book well guarded ( Sarat Al-Waqiah 56:77,78).” *

**BB: Below are three translations of Noble Quran in English by three scholars.
Noble Qurna 56:77-78!
056.077
YUSUFALI: That this is indeed a qur'an Most Honourable,
PICKTHAL: That (this) is indeed a noble Qur'an
SHAKIR: Most surely it is an honored Quran,
56.78
YUSUFALI: In Book well-guarded,
PICKTHAL: In a Book kept hidden
SHAKIR: In a book that is protected

Noble Quran 85:21-22!
085.021
YUSUFALI: Day, this is a Glorious Qur'an,
PICKTHAL: Nay, but it is a glorious Qur'an.
SHAKIR: Nay! it is a glorious Quran,
085.022
YUSUFALI: (Inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved!
PICKTHAL: On a guarded tablet.
SHAKIR: In a guarded tablet.

You asked how can we reconcile these facts in the light of these verses. My response again is that your so-called self-claimed fact HAS YET TO BE ESTABLISH OR PROVED. Which you have not done so far. All you are trying is to put some naïve or ignorant Muslims on spot and stir some confusion and suspecion in their minds. By the way how much knowledge of Arabic language you have? Arabic is EIGHT times complexed than Engligh, in case you don’t know that.**

*faceup: “If the Koran was inscribed in “a tablet preserved,” and in “a book well-guarded,” why was it necessary for Caliph Umar to rewrite the Koran?” *

*BB: Same response as above. You are judgmental here again. Where is your proof? Stop copying lies from Christian missionary sites. IF YOU ARE RIGHT SO WHY QURAN IS PERFECT AND HAS NO ERROR AND CONTRADICTIONS? Can you tell me how a man made book can be perfect, where Old Testament and New Testament are not? *

faceup: “Why were the original codifices of the Quran destroyed by Caliph Umar and close associates of the Prophet brutalized to accepting the changes?”

BB: YOU SOUND LIKE IT ACTUALLY HAPPENS AS YOU ARE DESCRIBING. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF OF YOUR TAUTOLOGICAL RHETORIC THAT IT DID HAPPEN? MY GUESS IS THAT (A) YOU ARE A SHIA (B) AHMADI (C) OTHER. However, what is your faith?

faceup: “In replying, pls confine answers to the above. Thank you.”

BB: O’Please, you are not in position to attach strings or set the rules while not following any rule of a decent debate. Get real.

Bubble Buster
"You mess with the BEST
You LOSE like the REST!"

[This message has been edited by Bubble Buster (edited April 04, 2000).]

13

TO ALL MUSLIMS AS'SLAMO'ALAYKOM! :)

I don't know who this "faceup" guy/gal is? Nor I concern myself about that. I like to share an important point that we all need to keep in mind. Almost all of these lies against Noble Quran comes from Christian missionary sites whom I have debated and defeated many times and still do with many other Muslims. But it still works for Christian missionary on a very smaller level.

The poster will always be judgmental like it actually took place like our friend "faceup" did without proving. It works like reverse psychology, because many naives’ Muslims falls for it without realizing that they are unknowingly acknowledging an unproven lie. Contrary to that in other situations we act properly. If any of us is being alleged of stealing $100 from Johnny's wallet, we immediately deny it and question the allegation and accuser. Now you may have an idea what I am trying to get across. Since it is a matter of faith, which is very near, and dear to us, we tend to act differently. and spontaneously, it is too late to reverse it. One thing is also worthy of noticing that the long reference of a book by "faceup" is just to distract you. He/she used it as filler (to fill the gap/space to achieve the desired results). In fact that has nothing to do with his/her definite uproven so-called questions. In his questions he/she is using the ** BROKEN GLASS TECHNIQUE. ** How many of you have heard about it or know it? Let me tell you what it is?

** It's used in situations when you don't want to give something up, like an idea perhaps. Regardless of what is put to you all you do is repeat the message time after time after time. This has the effect of stupefying your adversary into either losing the will to live entirely or giving up and agreeing with you. **

The most successful use of broken record technique is in Middle East. Where Jews/Israel has been stupefying Arab Muslims for over 50+ years and it is still going on there and other parts of the world against Muslims. Sad part is that some of us have proved ourselves to be the suckers. So “faceup’s” judgmental questions are a form of BRT.

Bubble Buster
"You mess with the BEST
You LOSE like the REST!"

[This message has been edited by Bubble Buster (edited April 04, 2000).]

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An Aspect of the Qur'aan's Miraculous Nature
Dr. Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips (A convert of Islaam from Christianity)
Usool at-Tafseer [The Methodology of Qur'aanic Explanation]

For a scripture to qualify as divinely revealed it must be totally accurate in its descriptions of reality: the past, the present and the future. The Qur'aan has many stories about previous prophets and their peoples. Some of these stories have elements in them that can be checked out for their accuracy. One example of the Qur'aan's precision in its historical descriptions is in the story of Prophet Yoosuf (Joseph), who was sold as a slave in Egypt, but rose to become an important official in the government, which made it possible for him to bring his whole family to live there in honor. Most historians agree that the entry of the Children of Israel into Egypt occurred when the northern half of the country was ruled by the Hyksos, Semitic invaders who were the first non-Egyptians to rule that country since the rise of the Old Kingdom. The Qur'aan always calls the Egyptian ruler who confronted Moses by the title of "Pharaoah." Every Egyptian ruler was called by this title starting from the reign of Amenhotep IV in the 14th century BC, but not before that. Yoosuf lived at least two hundred years before Amenhotep IV. The Qur'aan consistently refers to the ruler in Yoosuf's time, as "al-malik," the king:
"The king [al-malik] said, 'Bring him to me." [Soorah Yoosuf (12):50.]
It should be noted that the Bible refers to the ruler of Joseph's time as "Pharaoah," which was an anachronism inserted by the scribes who wrote the books of the Old Testament centuries after Moses.
Bucaille, Maurice, Moses and Pharaoah: The Hebrews in Egypt, p. 176. Tokyo: NTT Mediascope, 1st ed. 1994.
This part of the chapter is based on Dr. Maurice Bucaille's book "Moses and Pharaoah. The Hebrews in Egypt"

Bubble Buster
"You mess with the BEST
You LOSE like the REST!"

15

Tariq:

Well said.

Bubble Buster
"You mess with the BEST
You LOSE like the REST!"

16

TO ALL, think on it.

"Those whom God (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth God (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe."
(Quran Chapter 6:125)

Mohammad (pbuh) wrote it ? **
First, he was illiterate !! How can an illiterate person come up with such a rich, poetic, intellectual, and inspiring text that it rocked the entire Arabia ? Mohammad (pbuh) never went to school ! No one taught him. He had no teacher of any kind in any subjects. How can he have the knowledge of all the science, astronomy, oceanography, etc that is contained in the Quran ? ( For example, the mention of ocean currents, stars, earth, moon, sun and their fixed paths in Soorah Rahman; and many other scientific statements that are found in Quran, that I cannot state in this short post/message) When Quran was revealed, the Arabic language was at its peak in richness, poetic value, literature, etc. Quran came and challenged the best literature in Arabic, the best poetry in Arabic of the time. Mohammad (pbuh) being illiterate couldnt possibly have come up with something so immaculate that it even exceded the best of poetry, and literature in Arabic at the time of the language's PEAK development. Arabic language had never been so rich in expression, poetic value, vocabulary, and variety in literature, as it was in the time of Quran. At a time like this, Quran came and exceeded the best of Arabic in all aspects of the language: poetry, literature, expression, etc. Any classical Arabic speaker would appreciate the unbeatten, unchallenged, and unmatched beauty of the language of Quran. An illiterate man is simply not capable of writing such a book. Mohammad (pbuh) had no reason to come up with something like Quran, and cause the entire society of Arabia to become his enemy. Why would he do something like that? Why would he write something going against almost all of the norms of the society, and lose his family, relatives, friends, and other loved ones , and not to mention all the wealth he lost ? Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years ! A very long time! Is it possible for someone to maintain the same exact style of Arabic speech , as demonstrated in Quran, for over 23 years ? Also, what the prophet Mohammad (saaw) used to say is recorded in what we call his hadeeth (sunnah). If we look at the Arabic style of the hadeeth, and compare it with the style of Quran, we can clearly see that they are clearly DIFFERENT,**and **DISTINGUISHABLE **Arabic styles. The prophet (saaw) spoke in public. It does not make sense that a man has two **UNIQUE, **Distinguishable, and completely different styles of speech in public. Yet another reason why Mohammad (saaw) couldn't possibly have written Quran. Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years ! A very long time! Is it possible for someone to maintain the same exact style of Arabic speech , as demonstrated in Quran over 23 years ?

WAS QURAN WRITTEN OR INSPIRED? **
-- "Behold! The angels said: "O Mary! God has chosen you and purified you - Chosen you above the women of all nations." Qur'an-3:42 ** THE SOURCE OF HIS MESSAGE "Chosen you above the women of all nations." Such an honor is not to be found given to Mary even in the Christian Bible! ........... Knowing full-well, and believing as we do, that the whole Quran is the veritable Word of God, we will nevertheless agree, for the sake of argument, with the enemies of Muhammed (pbuh) for a moment, that he wrote it. We can now expect some cooperation from the unbeliever. Ask him, "Have you any qualms in agreeing that Muhammed (pbuh) was an Arab?" Only an opinionated fool will hesitate to agree. In that case there is no sense in pursuing any discussion. Cut short the talk. Close the book! With the man of reason, we proceed. "That this Arab, in the first instance, was addressing other Arabs. He was not talking to Indian Muslims, Chinese Muslims, or Nigerian Muslims. He was addressing his own people - the Arabs. Whether they agreed with him or not, he told them in the most sublime form - words that were seared into the hearts and minds of his listeners that Mary the mother of Jesus –A JEWESS- was chosen above the women of all nations. Not his own mother, nor his wife nor his daughter, nor any other Arab woman, but a Jewess! Can one explain this? Because to everyone his own mother or wife, or daughter would come before other women. Why would the Prophet of Islam honor a woman from his opposition! and a Jewess at that! belonging to a race which had been looking down upon his people for three thousand years? Just as they still look down upon their Arab brethren today.

SARAH AND HAGAR
The Jews get their cock-eyed racism from their Holy Bible, where they are told their father, Abraham, had two wives -Sarah and Hagar. They say that they are the children of Abraham through Sarah, his legitimate wife; that their Arab brethren have descended through Hagar, a "bondwoman", and that as such, the Arabs are inferior breed. Will anyone please explain the anomaly as to why Muhammed (pbuh) (if he is the author) chose this Jewess for such honor? The answer is simple ** HE HAD NO CHOICE ** he had no right to speak of his own desire. "IT IS NO LESS THAN AN INSPIRATION SENT DOWN TO HIM." (Qur'an, 53:4).
SURA MARYAM:There is a Chapter in the Holy Quran, named Sura Maryam "Chapter Mary" (XIX) named in honor of Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ (pbuh); again, such an honor is not to be found given to Mary in the Christian Bible. Out of the 66 books of the Protestants and 73 of the Roman Catholics, not one is named after Mary or her son. You will find books named after Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul and two score more obscure names, but not a single one is that of Jesus or Mary! If Muhammed (pbuh) was the author of the Holy Quran, then he would not have failed to include in it with MARYAM, **the mother of Jesus, his own mother –AMINA,** his dear wife –** KHADIJA, or his beloved daughter – **FATIMA.But No! No! this can never be. The Quran is not his handiwork!

Bubble Buster
"You mess with the BEST
You LOSE like the REST!"

[This message has been edited by Bubble Buster (edited April 04, 2000).]

17

Dear faceup:

Allow me to mention that in a religious debate or discussion one is required to use the sources from the religion he/she is for or against. It is a rule that since all three monotheistic religions (1)Islaam (2) Christianity (3) Judaism, (supposedly) came from the same father Abraham (as) (Hazrat Ibraheem (as)} and are linked to each other, so a comparasion is inevitable. But one cannot use non-religious or secular sources to establish the point. For example in this case even if the author may be the Muslim. To be acceptable one must be a religious scholar with ability to rule. Otherwise Sulman Rushdie is a Muslim (supposedly).

BB has done a good job as always. I concur with him. I like to see that you establish your point from Islamic sources, can you?

Ghazi
Facts Are The Authority!

[This message has been edited by Ghazi (edited April 04, 2000).]

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Note: Your cursewords in Arabic will be caught.

[This message has been edited by X2 (edited April 04, 2000).]

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BubbleBuster: Roman does not speak arabic, for all he knew Ny could have posted some argument from an arabic source. Relax.

[This message has been edited by X2 (edited April 04, 2000).]

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Note: enough

[This message has been edited by X2 (edited April 04, 2000).]