The family of Ali KaramAllaho Wajho at the battle of Karbala

Society Religion & Philosophy
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According to Wikipedia:

Descendants of Ali ibn Abu Talib
Hussain ibn Ali, chief of the army, son of the fourth caliph Ali ibn Abu Talib, and grandson of Islamic prophet Muhammad
Abbas ibn Ali, a half-brother of Hussain ibn Ali and the commander of the army
Qasim ibn Abbas ibn Ali - The son of Ali ibn Abu Talib and Ummal Baneen
al-Fadl ibn al-Abbas ibn Ali
Abdullah ibn Ali, a half-brother of Hussain ibn Ali and full brother of Abbas ibn Ali.
Jafar ibn Ali, brother of Abas from Ummal Baneen
Uthman ibn Ali, brother of Abbas from Ummal Baneen
Ali al-Akbar ibn Husayn, a son of Hussain ibn Ali and Umm Layla
Ali al-Asghar ibn Husayn, the six-month-old baby boy of Hussain ibn Ali and Bibi Rubab
Qasim ibn Hasan ibn Ali, the son of Umme Farwa.
Abi Bakr ibn Hasan ibn Ali, the son of Ramla.
Abdullah ibn Hasan ibn Ali, the son of Umme Wald. A young boy, who ran out of the tent to save Hussain when he being killed, and died before Hussain.
Abdullah ibn Ali son of Layla bint Mas’ud.
Abi Bakr ibn Ali son of Layla bint Mas’ud.
Abdul Rehman ibn Ali
Muhammad ibn Ali

Question is simple to my Shia brothers, who would name his kid after his or his parent’s enemy. Even if that name is most common or popular in that time and era.
Please don’t say those pious men were under pressure throughout their lives after Prophet SAW and therefore to please Khalifa (first three) they named their kids after them.

There are dozens of questions that arise and one of the most important one it the door incident of Bibi Fatima R.A.
How can Hz Ali R.A could tolerate beating of his wife and daughter of Prophet Muhammad SAW, where his son would not take bait’h of a fasiq. I can never understand the story from Ahle-Tashee. If there was any tension after the initial delay of bait’h of Hz Abu Bakr R.A, why he was given many important responsiblities during first three Khilafat. And why he would name his children after those who attempted to murder his wife.

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Re: The family of Ali KaramAllaho Wajho at the battle of Karbala

Last month Ammar Nakhshwani discussed this at our mosque. Watch the video.

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Re: The family of Ali KaramAllaho Wajho at the battle of Karbala

^I just finished watching the video. Where is your mosque? Who is this man Syed Ammar Nakhshwani? Where is he from? He speaks and delivers well.

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Re: The family of Ali KaramAllaho Wajho at the battle of Karbala

You can refer to the above lecture that talks about the names in some details.

At the time of the incident of door there was physical altercations with name such as Zubayr b Awam engaging his sword against attackers. Imam Ali for his part chose not to retaliate and in his words that was due to the instructions left to him by Rasool Allah saww about what challenges were to incur and that he must remain patient. In Imam Ali's words recorded in khutba of shaqshaqiah, "Then I began to think whether I should assault or endure calmly the blinding darkness of tribulations wherein the grown up are made feeble and the young grow old and the true believer acts under strain till he meets Allah on his death.I found that endurance thereon was wiser. So I adopted patience although there was pricking in the eye and suffocation in the throat."

I see you use the word "attempted murder" for this event however my understanding from reading the books is that the attackers wanted Imam Ali out from the house and Fatima Zahra sa was hurt in the process as she came to the door in her attempt to stop the attackers. I stand corrected on that one.

As for when and if allegiance to hz Abu Bakr was paid then that is a confusing area with varying opinions. Bukhari notes that for 6 months there was no allegiance. Other opinions include that there was never any allegiance.

Important responsibilities for Imam Ali during the caliphate of first 3 khulafa? Well I know Umar asked for his help on occasions and Imam Ali offered him key advice on certain occasions such as before the battle of Jerusalem but there were certainly no official positions for Imam. During this time his activities were limited to his selected disciples which is a fact he mentions many a times including jn Jamal when he states that the sword that had defeated the Quraish was now out once again to root out corruption after 25 years of sheathing.

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Re: The family of Ali KaramAllaho Wajho at the battle of Karbala

For me its a bohtaan on a courageous man like Ali, an ordinary man would not tolerate this kind of assault on his family, let alone Assad ullah. Only certain mind set can accept this hush hush and patience theory. So looks like He spent his entire life after Prophet SAW departure living as a coward man (naudobillah) in Medinah. And what did he get for doing all this (again this is all based on storyline from Ahle-Tashee point of view), a bumpy ride as Khalifah, fights between Muslims, original Quran had to be saved from general public...the secrets went in the cave with Imam Mehdi. The majority of the Muslims are going to hell since they believe first 4 Khalifah were Rashideen. So what exactly Hz Ali has acheived by keeping the silence for so long while Ummah was converting into Munafiqeen by taking bait'h of Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman and reading human compiled Quran.

Please explain the logic you are given for all 24+ years, while the deen of Allah was slaughtered by Munafiqeen. All the fancy beliefs surrounding Imamat look so irrelevant when we see that Imam was leading a jamaat of handful of people while majority of Muslims turned Munafiqeen going all corners of the world spreading their infected deen to Millions. And the last one runs to the cave to hide for thousands of years with Mus'haff and other belongings of Prophet SAW's family, despite of having super natural powers of all sort.

Thanks.

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Re: The family of Ali KaramAllaho Wajho at the battle of Karbala

hey smooth_guy if you really want academic and intellectual answers to these questions you ask. Why not go to a Shia scholar or a maulana? Why post these questions on a simple blog such as this?
Are your intentions a bit sinister?

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Re: The family of Ali KaramAllaho Wajho at the battle of Karbala

I have never seen such a reply when history is challenged for Sunnis. To answer your question, I have seen many knowledgable Shias like Puglu and others and I really want to see their explaination.

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Re: The family of Ali KaramAllaho Wajho at the battle of Karbala

What use is there in creating this thread when it has likely been made dozens of times before? Do you people never get sick of these futile discussions? What does it matter to you what we name our kids? Koi apnay garebaan main jhanknay ko tayyar hi nahi ke doosron pe partay hain.

I'd like to see proof that they were named *after *Abu Bakr and Umar. Don't assume things. If I recall correctly, there were at least 22 Umars at the time of Imam Ali (as). Were these not common names at the time? If there are 22 Johns in my neighborhood and I name my son John, how can you conclude I named my son specifically after a certain Johns? Bring proof.

We have a hadith that Imam Ali (as) named his son Uthman after his friend Uthman ibn Mathoun in Bihar. In Asad ul Ghayba there is a hadith that Ali (as) named a son Umar after a son of Ummul Momineen Umm e Salma (ra) who fought along with him in Jamal and was one of his top commanders.

The question to be asked is that Shibli Nomani wrote on the authority of Bukhari's Tareekh al-Sagheer that Rasoolallah (saw) named a son Uzza. I suppose you'll assume Rasoolallah (saw) named a son after a pagan God. Why don't you name your sons Uzza?

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Re: The family of Ali KaramAllaho Wajho at the battle of Karbala

Did the prophet not know what will happen after his death , the event of karbala ?

Did he not told gate of knowledge what to do , who was his closest?

Were not all imams killed/murdered/poisoned one after another ?

Sher-e-khuda was a man full of wisdom and so were all his actions

The last imam is not hiding in cave , do a quick search on this forum you can find more info on it

I am finding your post 5 offensive . ..

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Re: The family of Ali KaramAllaho Wajho at the battle of Karbala

Report my post please if there is anything offensive. I am trying to understand how all this happened despite of having super natural powers. More than that, I am trying to understand (taking Shia perspective as authentic) that the last message from Allah SWT to mankind had to suffer this blow that real momineen (just like the disciples of Jesus) had to keep their faith hidden from the public and Ali R.A was teaching them in secret while showing allegence to Sahaba (which naudhobillah turned against Prophet SAW's family after his death). Was not amar bil maroof wa nahi ana' munkir is the reason to be a Muslim. Why Ali R.A didn't try to save general Muslims who believed first three Khalifa were righteous. How he could see that wrong version of Islam is spreading East to West on his watch.

Jafri, I have never asked this question before. This is a very valid question that raises a lot of logical subsequent questions on Ali R.A's said behaviour. For an outsider (non-Muslim) there are a lot of similarities between Shia version of Khilafat era and the expeditions of St. Paul after Jesus's death. Your anger tells me you do not want to talk about this topic or its a touchy one.

Taqlee, so 12th Imam is not hiding (ghaibat-e-kubra) and he doesn't posses real Mus'haf and other things of Ahle-Bait?

As for the names, if I have an enemy and his name is Shehzad which suppose a very popular and IN name these days, I would never name my kid Shehzad, even if its the name of my cousin or family member. apnay aap se poochiye ke kiya aap kabhi esa kareinge ????? After Karbala, how come Ahle-Bait never named their kids Yazeed or Ziyaad or Shimer? Those were popular names in mesopotamia.

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Re: The family of Ali KaramAllaho Wajho at the battle of Karbala

No, your posts r not offensive and these seem like u r genuinely curious…but there r fundamental errors in presumptions u have made b4 putting forward these questions …my suggestion to u is to read a book either from a Shia writer or an orientalist to get the basics of the subject in place and then share ur opinions and questions…couple of books I can suggest to u are..Succession to Mohammad: A Study of Early Caliphate, The Succession to Muhammad: A Study of the Early Caliphate: Wilferd Madelung: 9780521646963: Amazon.com: Books

If u wish to study from polemical Shia sunni debate then here is detailed work…it covers exchange of letters between head of jamiah al azhar, Shaikh Salim Bishri and Marja Sharaf al din Musawi, Al-Muraja’at | Al-Islam.org by the Ahlul Bayt Digital Islamic Library Project

If u wish to study something tht is a little easy on the mind yet something tht gives u gist of some of these arguments then read Tunisian sheikh Tijani’s memoirs as to how and what brought him to the doorsteps of tashayyu…Then I was Guided | Al-Islam.org by the Ahlul Bayt Digital Islamic Library Project

If you wish to speak to someone in person then I can give u contact number of a guy who lives in Canada if u r still living there then it is practical for u…he is an indian scholar by the name Zaki Baqri…a nice guy who u cud ring at ur convenience and ask questions or references or what have you…and dont worry, our lads are quite chilled and relaxed not like tablghi jamaat tht they almost start to stalk u to almost to the point of discomfort…no offense to tablighi bros here…

and no dear, no subject in school of Ahlul Bayt is touchy or a hush-hush as u put it…u can try stopping a little 14 year old Shia kid of a footpath and try asking these questions and then watch him speak after tht…no area for us is above scrutiny & in our school we have grown up listening to these topics…

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Re: The family of Ali KaramAllaho Wajho at the battle of Karbala

Thanks for all the links and info. I am in Canada anymore and in Houston I have plenty of Shia here, some of them pray at Sunni's masjid too. One Iraqi brother comes for Asr as well :)

I will go through these resources once I have time in holidays. But there is no clear and straight answer that you (having seen yours and paglu's knowledge on the forum) can provide? Let me put it in bullet form.

  • Will you name your kids after your enemy even if that name is most common or IN these days? If not, then thinking of Ali R.A doing that is strange.
  • Did Ali R.A have a secret life hidden from the masses, teaching only the handful of his loyals underground?
  • Did Ali R.A have Mus'haf-e-Fatimah with him? Why he didn't stop AbuBakr R.A from start the compilation of Quran after several Huffaz got martyred in a battle? And Uthman R.A to have one Mus'haf spread to all over the Islamic world? If the Quran we read is in original order and form (if Ahle-Tashee believe in it) then do you give credit to those Khulafah for their efforts?
  • If majority of Sahaba supported first three Khulafah, how do Ahle-Tashee see them (faith wise)? Did they go out side the folds of Islam based on the Kalimah, Salah and other differences with the real deen Ali R.A was teaching to the handful of his companions?

These are natural questions an outsider will ask. Try to answer straight if possible. Yes and No would also do.

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Re: The family of Ali KaramAllaho Wajho at the battle of Karbala

okay...good

tht will indeed b very strange but u will have to show me evidence tht Imam named his children after these particular personalities.....if I name my child Ahmad then only I cud tell who I have named him after....Ahmad the cricketer, Ahmad the musician, Ahmad the religious leader, do I just like the way it sounds, or do I like its literal meaning?.....Imam Ali ibne Hussain named his son Abdul Rahman, so can it be concluded tht he was inspired by the killer of his grandfather, Abdul Rehman ibne Muljim, to name his son that?.......so if u have any clear evidence in form of traditions from Imam Ali that can link the reason behind him naming his children then it will be naturally weighed against the evidence tht we already have where he has told which friend of his he has named them after.......if there is any evidence from history then u must put it fwd to be examined...

2ndly, when reflecting on history it is a rule of thumb to see facts as per the standards and norms of the particular area under study and not today's standards and norms......e.g. today when ppl hear someone named Obama then diff person comes to mind whereas 10 years back for us cricket fans at least it wud have been Obama the Kenyan cricket tht wud have come to mind, and 30 years back tht name might have been known for different reasons and characters or might not have been known etc......therefore to analyse history u have to go back to the norms and standards of tht era.....
now keeping tht in mind go back to the times of our Imams like al Baqir and as Sadiq and view the names of their disciples in the list of narrators and u will see many yazeeds, muawiyas and marwans.......all 3 highly despised characters yet the shia of the time choosing this name out of any name in the world and while professing their dislike of these characters.....so clearly the names were not seen exclusively in the shadow of characters of Yazeed ibne Muawiya, Muawiya ibne Abi Sufyan, or Marwan bin Hakam as they r today.....so ur assumption has to have historic basis to back it....

[quote]
* Did Ali R.A have a secret life hidden from the masses, teaching only the handful of his loyals underground?
[/quote]

no, it was no secret who the Shiyaan e Ali were....there was a sizable minority that acknowledged the command of Rasool Allah regarding Imam Ali's Imamat and it contained the loyal companions and the banu hashim the family of Rasool Allah whom with command of Allah the message of Islam was revealed to first.....
it was the rulers that were scared of those who refused to acknowledge their power and not the other way around......in fact they attacked the tribe of Malik bin nuwayrah and killed him (and khalid b walid raped his wife the same night) because he refuse to acknowledge Abu Bakr as the ruler and said tht he will never hand over collections to Abu Bakr since Rasool Allah never appointed him his Emir......the new rulers dealt with Imam Ali and his followers by putting strict restrictions on them and usurped rights tht were left for them by Rasool Allah such as their khums was halted and their properties confiscated with until them returning to the Ahlay Bayt at a much later time of Umar bin Abdul Aziz...

[quote]
* Did Ali R.A have Mus'haf-e-Fatimah with him? Why he didn't stop AbuBakr R.A from start the compilation of Quran after several Huffaz got martyred in a battle? And Uthman R.A to have one Mus'haf spread to all over the Islamic world? If the Quran we read is in original order and form (if Ahle-Tashee believe in it) then do you give credit to those Khulafah for their efforts?
[/quote]

bro, Imam Ali only once came voluntarily to court of Abu Bakr....and tht was to hand over to him the copy of Quran which he had compiled and it was chronologically with tafsir and taweel but u can read the how Abu Bakr and Umar responsed to tht....here are references from Sunni books if u wish to study their response....

  • at-Tabaqat, by Ibn Sa’d, v2, part 2, p101
  • Ansab al-ashraf, by al-Baladhuri, v1, p587
  • al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, v3, pp 973-974
  • Sharh Ibn Abi al-Hadid, v6, pp 40-41
  • al-Tas’hil, by Ibn Juzzi al-Kalbi, v1, p4
  • al-Itqan, by al-Suyuti, v1, p166
  • al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 9, Section 4, p197
  • Ma’rifat al-Qurra’ al-kibar, by al-Dhahabi, v1, p32
  • Fat’hul Bari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v10, p386
  • al-fihrist, by (Ibn) an-Nadim, p30
  • al-Masahif, by Ibn Abi Dawud, p10
  • Hilyatul awliya’, by Abu Nu’aym, v1, p67
  • al-Sahibi, by Ibn Faris, p79
  • ‘Umdatul Qari, by al-Ayni, v20, p16
  • Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v15, pp 112-113
  • Ma’rifat al-Qurra’ al-kibar, by al-Dhahabi, v1, p31

[quote]
* If majority of Sahaba supported first three Khulafah, how do Ahle-Tashee see them (faith wise)? Did they go out side the folds of Islam based on the Kalimah, Salah and other differences with the real deen Ali R.A was teaching to the handful of his companions?
[/quote]

well we take our deen from Rasool Allah and his teaching is tht anybody who professes from his tongue the 2 sentences is a Muslim and has all the rights a Muslim is to be given.....anyone who doubts this is a non believer himself since he has rejected the clear command and inunction of the Prophet saww....
Compareatively much worse were those who started first civil war between Muslims and waged war on Imam Ali.....and even to those Imam Ali never attributed the term 'unbelievers'.....he used the Quranic terminology to define these three groups tht fought him as Nakisoon, Mariqoon, and Qasitoon and u can look up the meaning of those in the holy Quran and traditions......

In terms of our view of early companions then after the death of the Holy Prophet, a small minority, following Ali, refused to pay allegiance......at the head of the minority there were Salman al Farsi, Abu Dhar al Ghaffari, Miqdad, and Ammar Yasir..... at the beginning of the caliphate of Ali also a sizable minority in disagreement refused to pay allegiance......among the most persistent opponents were Saeed ibn Ass, Walid ibn Uqba, Marwan b Hakam, Amr ibn Ass, Busr ibn Artat, Samura ibn Jundab, and Mughira ibn Shubah.

The first group I mentioned above to us is the elite of Sahaba and the later group with their conduct only confirmed wht is in their hearts.....u can study the biographies and complete lives from birth of death of both of the groups and u will c what their aims were and where their loyalties were......around these 2 groups we polarize the Sahaba and there is no way to agree with Sunnis tht all 100,000 sahaba are above questioning and must be given immunity .....some of them actually quite vigorously worked against the principles and inspirations of Islam......

[quote]
These are natural questions an outsider will ask. Try to answer straight if possible. Yes and No would also do.
[/QUOTE]

lol, I think I have done a little more than Yes or No but since its the weekend its ok.....

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Re: The family of Ali KaramAllaho Wajho at the battle of Karbala

Brother** Surdar Asif** – There is other material in Nahjul Balgha which completely contradicts the above ‘Sermon of Shaqshaqiah.

Read the following Letter 6 in Nahjul Balagha, Where Hz. Ali ibn Abi Talib (ra) clearly states that selection of Hz Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman (May Allah be pleased with them all):

Verily, the people who paid allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, have paid allegiance to me based on the same principles as the allegiance to them. So anyone who was present has no right to go against his pledge of allegiance, and anyone who was absent has no right to oppose it. And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar. So if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah. If anyone goes against this decision, then he must be persuaded to follow the rest of the people. If he persists, then fight with him for leaving that which has been accepted by the believers. And Allah shall let him wander misguided and not guide him. ** Nahjul Balagha, letter 6**

1) was with the pleasure of Allah
2) If anyone goes against this decision, then he must be persuaded to follow the rest of the people.
3) If he persists, then fight with him for leaving that which has been accepted by the believers.
4) And Allah shall let him wander misguided and not guide him.

Refer to the following Sermon 92 from Nahjul Balagha:

Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not listen to the utterance of any speaker or the reproof of any reprover. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief.** Nahjul Balagha Sermon 92**

If Imamate was ordained by Allah Almighty for Hz. Ali (ra) he never say the following:

1) Leave me and seek someone else.
2) It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs.
3) I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief.

How can he reject what Allah Almighty had ordained for him?

Compare the above with the response of Rasool Allah (Peace and Blessings be upon him) when his Uncle Abu Talib under pressure from the Mushrikeen of Makkah urged him to curtail his mission.

“O my uncle! By Allah if they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left on condition that I abandon this course, until Allah has made me victorious, or I perish therein, I would not abandon it.”

And refer to the Sermon 204 of Nahjul Balagha

By Allah, I had no liking for the caliphate nor any interest in government, but you yourselves invited me to it and prepared me for it. When the caliphate came to me, I kept the Book of Allah in my view and all that Allah had put therein for us, and all that according to which He has commanded us to take decisions; and I followed it, and also acted on whatever the Prophet - may Allah bless him and his descendants - had laid down as his sunnah. In this matter I did not need your advice or the advice of anyone else, nor has there been any order of which I was ignorant so that I ought to have consulted you or my Muslim brethren. If it were so I would not have turned away from you or from others. Quoted partially from Nahjul Balagha Sermon 204

If he was ordained to be the successor (Caliph) of Rasool Allah (Peace and Blessings be upon him)he would never utter “By Allah, I had no liking for the caliphate nor any interest in government, but you yourselves invited me to it and prepared me for it.”

Now consider the following, If Hz. Ali (ra) any ‘problems’ with Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) why would he marry Hz. Abu Bakr’s (ra) widow Asma bint Umays and take under his care young son of Hz. Abu Bakr (ra).

Hz. Muhammad bin Abi Bakr was great grandfather of Imam Jaffar as Sadiq (ra)!!!

Would anybody marry his enemy’s widow and take his son under his care?

The above clearly shows the love Hz. Ali (ra) had for Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) – thus he chose to honor him by naming his son with name of Abu Bakr. Same goes for the names Umar and Uthman

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Re: The family of Ali KaramAllaho Wajho at the battle of Karbala

When we have historical events like Ghadeer which is not enough to Prove Ali a.s's authority on Muslims Ummah after Prophet s.a.w......
when We have event like Siffeen which is not enough to prove Muaviyah Wrong................
when we cannot convince people not to use to r.a Yazeed after showing them what happened in Karbala and Shaam.......
When we cant convince you that person who recited Prophet s.a.w Nikah was Muslim....

How do u expect us to bring better arguments then them to proof to you that Indeed Hazrat Imam Ali a.s Named his son Abu Bakar after his best friends Abu Bakar bin Hazim al Ansaari, keeping in mind Abu Bakar was not even his realname, it was his Kuneeat (which is not given by parents) his real name was Muhammed al Asghar.... Same goes to Abu Bakar bin Qahafa.... His real name was Abduallah (in some narrations Ateeq)..... Now i Also see Abdullah bin Ali and Abduallah bin Hassan in the list provided in intial post.... but no one even argues that Ali might have named his son Abduallah ... after Abduallah bin Qahafa. why beucase there were other Abduallahs around at the time of birth ? Well there were other Abu bakars too.
Same goes to Umar.... Imam Ali a.s names his son umar after umar bin Mukrin r.a, son of Ume Salama r.a (wife of Prophet s.a.w) from previous marriage. He was Governer of Behrain for Imam Ali ibne Abi Talib a.s. And He named his son after Uthman after Uthman bin Mavoon r.a, one of the earlier converts to Islam.

If Imam Ali a.s loved all these sahaba so much i dont see same amount of love by these sahabas back ? They all should have individually named their kids after Imam Ali a.s for showing so much love to them... forget all three ... not one of them was able to name his Sons after ALI a.s, Hassan a.s or Hussain a.s.

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Re: The family of Ali KaramAllaho Wajho at the battle of Karbala

^** Brother Aqeel **– You have completely ignored to answer/address post 14 where I have quoted Imam Ali (ra) yet you ignore to heed him. All the quotations are from Nahjul Balagha with references!!!

It will be interesting to see how you address each quotation. Do you agree with Imam Ali (ra) or do you follow other than what he says?

This will be answered by itself if you address the questions I have posed above for you?

You are raising the same points as *Ammar Nakhshwani *(the guy in the video) has pointed out. (I saw this video 4 days ago – and it is not convincing at all)

If we suppose that Hz. Ali (ra) indeed use the name Abu Bakr for his best friend Abu Bakar bin Hazim al Ansaari – (same point made by the guy in the video).

And If we suppose that Hz. Ali (ra) indeed use the name Umar for his governor in Bahrain umar bin Mukrin – (same point made by the guy in the video).

And If we suppose that Hz. Ali (ra) indeed use the name Uthman for Uthman bin Mavoon r.a, one of the earlier converts to Islam – (same point made by the guy in the video).

Why don’t Shias follow the example of Hz. Ali (ra) in naming their children Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman?

Why don’t Shias honour whom Hz. Ali (ra) had honoured by using these names?

The fact that Shias don’t follow Hz. Ali (ra)’s example is that they know the fact that who was honored by these names?

Hz. Ali (ra) used the names – second Shia Imam Hz. Hassan (ra) used the same names for his sons!

Why do Shias hate the names Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman? If the names were good enough for Hz. Ali (ra) sons; shouldn’t it same for your sons?

By Shias not using these names clearly proves that these are a No No names for Shias! They (Shias) wouldn't admit it but deep down in their hearts they know for whom these names were really used for!

If Imam Ali (ra) loved these names so should you! Are you not supposed to follow his noble examples willingly without any misgivings?

There is surely ulterior motive in not following his noble ways!

I hope you respond to my post 14.

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Re: The family of Ali KaramAllaho Wajho at the battle of Karbala

I didnt want to post on this thread again, but u made an special request so now i have too...
I havent addressed post 14 because i wasnt replying to that.....

let me tell you this.... We dont hate the names Abu Bakar, Umar or Usman... Matter of fact we dont even hate the name yazeed... You will find references in Usool e kafi where Sahabi of Imam Sadiq a.s is named Yazeed... If you see names of Shuhada of Karabala you will find name yazeed there too.

Now to proof a point that I love All shuhada of Karbala i have to name my kids Yazeed ?
You Honor Personalities by naming ur kids after them... not naming ur kids after their kids....... When we name our kids Hassan Hussain or Abbas... its honoring the Personalities Hassan Hussain and Abbas ...... (a.s); and lets say ur argument does have a weight that shias should follow Imam Ali and name their kids as Imam Ali did... well brother we are doing exactly the same by naming our kids Hassan, Hussain and Abbas...

Now lets come back to Yazeed, Even though their were Yazids in List of 72 shuhada of Karbala.... I would prefer not naming my kids Yazeed because when someone says Yazid I think fo Yazid ibn Muaviyah l.a before I think of Yazeed ibne Ziad Mohasir e Kandi or Yazid ibn Maghful Jafi. It doesnt mean Naming your Kid Yazid is forbiden in my religion.

Same applies to Abu Bakar, Umar and Uthman....when someone mentions one of them my mind would go to Abu bakar bin qahafa or Umer bin Khatab or Uthman bin Afaan before it goes to Abu Bakar bin Hazim or Umar bin mukrin or Uthman bin Mavoon..... and even if did think of Abu Bakar bin Hazim or Umar bin mukrin or Uthman bin Mavoon.... I would still prefer names like Mohammed, Ali, Hassan, Hussain, Jafer, Musa, Raza, Naqi, Mahdi.

Again conclusion is these names might be a NO NO for me and other shias you and i Know, naming kids Umar, Abu Baka,r Uthman or Yazid are not forbidden in shia religion.

I have asked you 1 question before and i will ask that again.... If i Claim to have alot of love and respect for you dear brother .... To prove it i name my son Ibn-e-Siddiq after you .... then wouldnt it be fair for you to do the same and name your kid Aqeel to honor me ? unless offcourse you dont have same amount of love and respect for me or you know i did name my Ibn-e-Siddique but not after you but after someone else i love and respect more than you.

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Re: The family of Ali KaramAllaho Wajho at the battle of Karbala

Okay i am going to make a brief reply on Khtubas from nahjul Blagha you quoted.... Lets Start with letter 06
I have no idea how u have skipped few steps or connected few dots to make a conclusion from this letter that...

Where Hz. Ali ibn Abi Talib (ra) clearly states that selection of Hz Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman (May Allah be pleased with them all):
1) was with the pleasure of Allah
2) If anyone goes against this decision, then he must be persuaded to follow the rest of the people.
3) If he persists, then fight with him for leaving that which has been accepted by the believers.
*4) And Allah shall let him wander misguided and not guide him.
*
I know you post this letter quiet often ,,,, can u do us a favor and read it half the time you post it so you get a hold of what this letter is saying ? i dont see any of the conclusions u made were written in this letter...

Lets get to Sermon 92 and 204

If Imamate was ordained by Allah Almighty for Hz. Ali (ra) he never say the following:

1) Leave me and seek someone else.
2) It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs.
3) I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief.
How can he reject what Allah Almighty had ordained for him?

If he was ordained to be the successor (Caliph) of Rasool Allah (Peace and Blessings be upon him)he would never utter “By Allah, I had no liking for the caliphate nor any interest in government, but you yourselves invited me to it and prepared me for it.”

He said no the minbar of Khilafat (4th)... Mansab of Imamat doesnt need any minbars..... His Job was to do what Prophet s.a.w did... Guide people to right path .... If Imam Zainulabideen a.s did as a captive in darbaar of Yazid then why would Imam Ali a.s need Minbar of Khilfat to do that ? Hazrat Yousaf a.s was Prophet of ALLAH yet King was someone else... please see the difference between Imamat and Khilafat (4th). ALLAH made him Imam Muslims made him 4th khalifa.... they r two different things.... He said no to that khilafat which later was assigned to people like yazeed.

I know it is all waste of time for you and mee.... because it will never go anywhere thats why i wasnt even intrested in replying on first place.

19

Re: The family of Ali KaramAllaho Wajho at the battle of Karbala

Astagfuralh for calling Imam Ali a.s names.... Have u ever heared word sabar ? Having power to do something but not doing it for Riza-e-Ilahi ?

Orginal Quran was saved and went into cave are just storys you heared.... Orginal Quran is the Quran you and I read. Mushaff we talk about is Tafseer of Quran.

Please explain me the logic that ALLAH has all sort of Super natural powers ALLAH has yet he doesnt help Muslims in Syria and Pakistan and Burma and Iraq ? You might say its Azaab of ALLAH for Gunah they do.... well what If i asked you what ALLAH was doing in Karbala... coudnt he have saved Imam Hussain a.s with help of ANgels and Rain ? didnt he have power to do that ? Offocurse he had power to help Imam Hussain a.s but Qatle Hussain a.s was Mashiat-e-Ilahi, and so was the door Incident and so is the Ghaybat of Imam Mehdi a.s. The day you understand Karbala is the day you will have most of your questions answered.

20

Re: The family of Ali KaramAllaho Wajho at the battle of Karbala

These answers I already know as I have heard this before from other Shias. So it was mashiat-e-Ilahi that Allah's deen got hijacked and wrong version of it got spread. The hijackers were used to save Quran though and their compilation is read by Ahle-Bait as well as all real momineen.

But I don't understand Hz AbuBakr's logic, at one hand he had given everything he owned in the name of Allah at Ghazwa Tabook, his family served Prophet SAW during his migration, he took blows for him in Ka'aba after Abu Talib passed away, the long history of his sacrifices of Islam, the minimal wage he accepted for Khilafah and gave away his cloth business. On the other hand he denied rightful claim of Ahle-Bait on Prophet's inheritance.

And if Shia logic is taken into account that majority Sahaba got power hungry and turned against Ahle-Bait, how come majoirty of Muslims didn't revolt against them. Did fear rule for 24 years that nobody dared to challenge them? Instead what we see is the most shining period of Islamic history during that time, where everyone was taken care of specially widows and orphans. Even historians has regarded that era specially Umar R.A as one of the best govt in the history of mankind, yet the same Umar who would go out in the night to serve his people, will do altercation with Ahle-Bait, causing miscarriage of Prophet's beloved daughter R.A on a piece of land. And if Ali R.A showed great sabr on this, how come other Sahaba remained quiet on this zulm? This is hard to comprehend.