The muslims of the subcontinent are a diverse mixture created by the accidents of time. Intense idealism and vacations from reality, often force them to identify Islam as a uniting platform.The zealous few believe strongly that a relegious bond will overcome all cultural,ethnic and economic differences.History has shown otherwise.
During the domination of India by the muslims wars have occured between Islamic empires, leaving behind a people both confused,and defeated.
The cries of Islam unite muslims but only for a little while. When the unrest dies they often return to squabling and disorganized warfare. The Khilafat movement in India serves as an example. The muslims united with Gandhi, led a movement to restore the khilaphat in Turkey. To their ultimate disapointment, the Turkish themselevs opted for a secular state.
The problem lies deep within our psyche.In the mind of every muslim floats the beautiful City of Madina, a fantasy that perished 1400 years ago.
India has been conquered by Persians Turks Mongols, Afghans all Islamic but esenttialy different. They left behind a people who are now surrounded by a modern and complex world.
Here lies the problem. The muslim majority are ofcourse Converts to Islam from Hinduism,it is for them a shameful reality. As a result they claim Iranian, Turkish or Arab Descent. Ironically these Countries veiw them as outsiders.
The Muslims of the subcontinent are like illegitame children of the Islamic empires running to their fictional parents who refuse to accept them.
It is I believe this inferiority complex that led to the blunder we call Pakistan.Muslim league claiming to restore a lost empire gained ground in the 30’s as a political reality.
The cigar smoking aristocrat, combined with the poet, to give the muslims a reflection of their deepest inferiority complex. The Deep Green Crescent Flag.
Resistance,
ghandi was Hitler and the Muslims of the subcontinent were like his Jews. The Muslims never united with ghandi. Turkey became secular in 1996 or 1997, I'm not sure. ghandi died years ago by assasination by his own people, indian hindus. Whereas the Quaid died by his devotion to Pakistan. I'm glad ghandi died on the hands of an assasin, an indian hindu.
Turkey was declared a Secular Republic in 1923 by Kemal Ataturk.
The Khilafat movement was led by Maulana Mohomad Ali and Maulana Shaukat Ali under a political aliance with Mr. Gandhi.
The Man who killed Mr Gandhi did so for a number of reasons mentioned in his testimonial confession. Among many reasons he felt that Mr Gandhi had favoured the muslims, and in doing so had allowed the creation of Pakistan.
I believe the facts mentioned above will not be disputed by most on this forum.
ResistAnce, first of all thanx for throwing in that "A" that means you do get the point once in a blue moon.
For your passage...it was interesting but nothing more...Well I'll try to clarify your Here Lies The problem paragraph....only if your perception is not a one way trafic :)
YOu wrote muslims convert from hinduism ...o.k its never to late to get on the right track.
AS for Pakistanies they never claimed to be "only" the decents of Arabs...everyone knows the history and the civivlizations which lived in the sub continent. II'm sorry to say but this blame of yours was kinda childish.
Thank God that the cigar smoking aristocrat led his nation to freedom and Pakistan came into being. I have all my respect for Ghandi ji too for his efforts and comprehension of the demands of 40s era.
I tried to look things from your perspective too and imagined if there was no Pakistan....well I laughed and then thanked God a million times....felt sorry for poor sikhs..poor kashmiries...and you know I wouldn't want Burma, Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka to hate me just because I would be a citizen of India.
Peace Buddy!!
And don't START another war! as usual...PAST IS HISTORY....NUCLEAR EXPLOSIONS IS THE FUTURE! and guess what you guys started it yet again!
Do you have any proof that Ghandi was his political alliance? Ghandi never favoured the Muslims. He wanted to be an all hindu secular gov't. If he didn't want that there would be no need for Pakistan. But unfortunately he did. Muslims and hindus would be united if Gahndi or Nehru would never have been born!!
Mr Boss,
Kindly accept this written token of apreciation for considering an oposing point of view. You mentioned "Thanking God a million times" , I encourage you to do so ; Gratitude is a noble emotion.
The word "Freedom" however seemed misplaced with in the case for Pakistan. Though 3 million Bengali muslims earned freedom from the cycle of life, in 1971, and many others continue to do so in Karachi , I find your views a little optimistic.
Mr Sk,
Kindly review the pages of history regarding the Khilafat movement. The fact that Mr Gandhi formed a political aliance with the muslims is not debatable.
Sincerely,
Resistance
The source you have that says that was probably written by an indian or an american.
Mr Sk,
All sources will confirm the dates and facts mentioned in my post.
Though I value your opinion I must insist that Turkey became secular in 1923 and not 1997 as you have projected.
You may refer to Mr Rabani's " History Of Pakistan" as a valid source of information. In it and all other accounts you will find the coalition of Mr Gandhi with the muslims during the khilafat movement.
Sincerely,
Resistance
I looked it up in Encarta 97. It said nothing about ghandi joining the caliphate movement. And why would he? Ghandi had troubles in India.
It is my hope and prayer that the posting above was an attempt at humor.
Just thought to express my feelings about some of the points RESISTANCE brought up.
(1) Islam or any other religion for that matter indeed is a unifying force. What ever historical division you (Resistance) are referring to were not created by Islam but by selfish, and greedy individual. As far the wars between Muslim states are concerned. The war between Islamic states have been much rarer than wars between Hindus states before the Muslim rule over India , or the wars between Christian states . Both the world wars were fought between Christian states not Islamic states.
(2) The failure of Khilafaat movement in no way proves the idea of Grand Islamism to be wrong. There were other factors at play. Most important of them the mischief of British and other western states that created division among Turks and Arabs. I am sure you have heard about the " Laurance of Arabia ". A British secret service agent responsible for creating a wedge between Arabs and Turks and between Arabs and Arabs. The end of khilafaat on the hand of Atta Turk was a result of Atta Turk’s frustration and disappointment that led to his hate for Arabs that he projected on Islam as well. Plus it was also somewhat realistic, there was no real khilafaat anymore so there was no point in chasing a dream that was shattered for the moment.
(3) Yes the majority of Indian/ Paki Muslims are converts from Hinduism but that proves nothing. After all the rest of the Muslisms ( ancestors) for that matter are converts from one or another religion e.g Christianity, Judaism, Atheism etc. And I DO NOT THINK any Indian / Paki Muslim ( or any other Muslim ) is ashamed of that. The creation of Pakistan proves their pride not shame as it shows their total divorce from their distant Hindu past. Even Bangladesh after breaking away from Pakistan refused to be a part of India or even it's " Ally " . That proves the shame thing to be WRONG.
(4) Muslims of sub continent are NOT obsessed with being the " illegitimate children " of the Arabs. What looks to you as an obsession with Arabs is in fact their love for the holy places and their respect for the land of the Prophet (PBUH). The Khilafaat moment shows Muslims of sub continent were and are concrened with Islam not a particular Nation (Arabs, Turks etc ). YES Muslims dream of re-creating the Madina Khilafaat just like Hindus are fascinated with the Holy Kingdoms of their different gods, and almost every Hindu dreams of restoring and reuniting " Maha Baharat" of the past by ersaing Pakistan, Bangladesh etc from the world map. Like Sikhs dream of restoring their ( short lived ) rule over a large portion of India and Pakistan in the form of Khalistan, like Christians are obsessed with the Pan Christian Empire. The European Union is a step towards that dream. Is it a co-incident that they are trying hard to keep Turkey outa EU ..? No my friend, its because Turks are Muslims even though turkey is a secular state. Similarly the Jews are obsessed with restoring the Kingdom of David ( Judia and Samaria ). All these examples shows Muslims are not alone in their dream to restore the past glory. So there is nothing " abnormal" about this " Empire complex " of the sub continent Muslims.
Sincerely
J.M Khan
[This message has been edited by J M Khan.]
Resistance,
To add to JM Khan's note, and contrary to what you say, it is the Muslims' pride in their culture and religion that causes displeasure among the Hindus of India and hence the constant Hindu/Muslim riots there. The Hindu majority cannot bear to see the growth of Islam around the world and in their own country (despite the persecution and discrimination against Muslims in India in the name of secularism).
That the 'Medina' dream can become a reality is what disturbs the rest of the world, and so this massive movement to spread falsehood against Islam. The interesting thing is that against all these odds, Islam prospers, and any logically thinking person would be proud of being part of a growing faith/group/ideology, and Indian Muslims are no exception. They were brought out of the darkness of ignorance when they embraced Islam.It is the Hindu who is ashamed of admitting to the Muslims contributions to his primitive Hindu culture. Resistance's remarks smack of just the kind of jealousy that the Indian Hindus of today feel towards their fellow Mulsim citizens.
AS for Gandhi's intentions.. well credit must be given to him for the fact that he fooled an entire nation into believing what he was not.. ie. 'Bapu' for the Indians both Muslims and Hindu. Only bright people like Jinnah
recognized the real Gandhi and saw through his less less than favorable attitude toeards Mulsims and so was forced
to make a demand for a separeate nation. Again, it was never Jinnah's intention to do so. It was the corrupt, anti-Mulsim leadership of India that forced him into making this decision, much to the chagrin of the Hindus.
India has its own share of problems. Racial riots in the South have been common, as well as troubles with the Bengalis. Indian Human rights record is a disgrace. Pakistani problems are not any different. Despite all the hostilities and the constant effort of Indians to dismember Pakistan, we have survived. Perhaps this is the bitter truth that Indians and people like Resistance find hard to swallow. But let's face it Resistance, Pakistan with its Islamic identity is a
REALITY that the world is going to have to learn to live with, and the sooner everyone learns to accept it the better.
So long
Antidote.
[This message has been edited by Antidote.]
Two excellent additions were made by Mr JM Khan and Mr Antidote on our continuing analysis of the Two Nation Theory.
A remarkable observation by Mr JM Khan has helped to widen perspective regarding the issue. The Empire Complex is not Unique to the muslims of the subcontinent.
It is a human phenomena, that plagues other relegions and ethnic divisions. The example of the European Union given by Mr Khan is invincible in the arena of Logic.
Mr Antitode has added an intresting perspective to the debate by rightly pointing out the mistakes resulting from Hindu Chauvanism. Mr Antitode while giving due respect to Mr Gandhi expounded on the limitations of his leadership, perhaps more Hindu and less muslim in nature.
The arguments presented by Mr JM Khan and Mr Antitode are both reasonable and correct.
Thats the best news I have heard in recent times that muslims of Pakistan have started fantasizing about Madinah of 1.4K years ago!
I thought enlightened Pakistanis only dream of green card and work, study, live, marry and die in the US. The rest make at least upto the mid-east.
If that has changed now, I think Islam will be a big force in the next few years and sure we will get some results of fantasizing about Madinah.
Amjad,
Green card, emigrating to the U.S or elsewhere outside of Pakistan is usually the beginning of an average Pakistanis desire and longing to go back to his/her roots. All of a sudden everything that he/she despised living in Pakistan seems "not so bad after all" However, when we talk of the Medina dream we are talking about all of the Muslim world not only Pakistanis. You will be surprised to see the enthusiasm of the younger generation of Muslims growing up in the West who've seen the good and the bad here. They are the ones who appreciate Islam and they are the ones who have the ability to make the Medina dream come true. It is not as unreal as you might think.
Antidote
Dear Mr. Resistence,
I do not see any co-relation between sacrifice of Bangalis in seeking freedom from Pakistan with madness going on in Karachi. Do you imply that two factions of the same community killing each other because they want to separate Karachi from Pakistan? Perhaps you are forgetting that at least more than half of the population has nothing to do with this madness because I consider it as the fight to grab power and money. If for one moment your views are to be taken as correct, where, that population which is sick and tired of lawlessness would go? Keep it in mind that the population also includes "Absolute Power" with full support of those who have no concern with the infight between two factions. Further Separation of Karachi from Pakistan means disintegration of Pakistan and people would do every thing except further disintegration! That was not the case in former East Pakistan.
Regards,
Farid
Dear Mr Farid,
Thankyou for your excellent questions.The correlation between East Pakistan and Bangladesh is more a matter of Geography and less of opinion. If you do observe from a historical perspective,there are some remarkable similarities.
Mujibur Rahman a charismatic leader of millions, preached reaction against the central authority.
Both Parties follow a secular and militant manifesto,arousing suspicion from the Army.
Altaf Hussain a gifted speaker continues to do the same.
Both leaders enjoy unchallenged support among the masses . Though blemished by acts violence Mujibur Rahman's Awami League then and Altaf Hussein's MQM still echo public resentment.
I bring to your attention Mr Farid a most disturbing similarity; the support of intellectuals. The Bengali thinkers gave vent to frustrations by the support of Mujibur Rahman,as do urdu speaking intellectuals through the offices of MQM.
The Pakistan army blundered in East Pakistan as it continues to do so in Karachi.
The most literal similarity I recall are the Shahid Minars in Bangladesh just like the public grave sights of Mohajirs in Nazimabad.The death of these individuals occuring from Language riots. The Bengalis supporting Bangla and the Mohajirs died for the official enhancement of Urdu.
I do not wish to bore you with issues of taxation and commerce but they are valid arguments in the case for correlation.
The essential difference is location. East Pakistan was located in the heart of India, the western wing, seperated by 1500 km of Indian teritory.
Karachi incase of an independance war has its back to the wall. The discouraging presence of the Arabian sea, is the only factor that restricts mohojir national extremism.Hence the idea of seperation is drowned both symbolically and literally in to the ocean of reality!
Mr Farid my perspective derives more from the existing will rather than militant possibilites. The two nation theory was an idea. The life of an idea or a theory, depends on moral and intellectual support. When a theory is kept alive through suppression or force it is rendered invalid. Hence Pakistan died in 1971, and again by the election of The MQM. It is I fear a body without spirit,that awaits divine disection.
Sincerely ,
Resistance
Mr Resistance,
Humble ADABS!
I read the discussions made by all from you to Farid, J.M Khan etc. Let me tell you one thing. Begalies separated from us due to a very important issuse raised by Mr. Mujeeb-ur-Rehman, and that was, "the attention and resources are all being used by and for West Pakistan, while we(Bengalis) are still living in mud houses. Later separation was caused by the selfish leader who, inspite of the fact that Mujeeb-ur-Rehman had won by a conspicuous majority, decided to rule the state.
In Sindh, the same happened due to a shift of capital to Islamabad, a city of Punjab. Like Bengalis (in fact like every one) who could resist. I agree with respectable Mr. Altaaf Hussein in all issues EXCEPT one. ANd that is, a separate administrative power in the form of a state. In my view point, a more comprehensive solution to this is by negotiations and calmimg down our brother Sindhis.
Enterprise2.
Dear Resistence,
On the day one when I read your first message about creation of Pakistan, I immediately came to know that you are staunch supporter of Altaf Hussain. Some idiots thought of you as an Indian Hindu. Any way I think there is nothing wrong with that any one has full right to choose any political party of his or her choice.
Though personally I agree with you about Do-quomi nazria concept which was based on false principles but I do not agree with you about But I do not agree with you on the point of further dissection of dead body. There will be more blood shed by further division. Result : further marginalisation of Muslims. The artificial divide between two countries has become reality, this is not a reversible process now. I rather be optimistic than pessimistic. There are still a number of good people living in the country. It is hoped that situation will improve.
I agree with you about geographical restrictions for separation movement of Altaf Hussain, but I also see political restrictions. This is a fact Karachi comprised of many nations not just one nation like in former East Pakistan, and political loyalities are divided. In such cirumstances thinking of separation is just like a dream or following shadows. The out come of such an futile attempt will be more blood shed of innocent people, lawless and chaos in the country. This is a loose-loose situation. If you guys are smart (as you claimed to be), act in logical and reasonable manner rather than emotionally.
I want to make one more correction. Urdu was and still is official language(at least on papers) of Pakistan since its creation. In 1971 the provincial language of Sindh was declared as Sindhi and in no way it was replacement of Urdu language. It is not understood why people made so much fuss about it. To me it was just showing of opposition power to Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, the then PM, who was supported by a large number of people or showing of hatred to poor people of the soil who first welcome Muhajirs via Khokhra par and from other places where they were not accepted.
When first time Urdu was declared as national language in former East Pakistan in 1948, Bengalis were the first ones who revolted against this injustice. When Quaid was addressing a large group of Bengalis, they threw there shoes towards him. At that time two official languages were declared.
Finally, it is not Urdu or rights of a community, it is a fact that Muhajirs never considered Pakistan as there homeland other wise they never called themselves as Muhjirs. When these smart people come to North America, USA or Western Europe, they are more proud to be called as American, Canadian, European etc. rather than Muhajirs although here they are also third rate citizens like others. Apart from English, they want to learn French, German, Spanish and so on but they have a problem in learning the culture of the soil where their third generation is enjoying the fruits of that Unfortunate Country.
Last but not the least, recently a Ph.D, (Muhajir) who was teaching in Jamshoro University as Senior Professor who did his Ph.D,( Chemistry) from China using Pakistan Government grant, is quite happy to work as Lab Technician in small private company in North America rather than teaching and serving his own people. Here he does not see any injustice!!
Regards,
Farid
Dear Resistence,
On the day one when I read your first message about creation of Pakistan, I immediately came to know that you are staunch supporter of Altaf Hussain. Some idiots thought of you as an Indian Hindu. Any way I think there is nothing wrong with that any one has full right to choose any political party of his or her choice.
Though personally I agree with you about Do-quomi nazria concept which was based on false principles but I do not agree with you on the point of further dissection of dead body. There will be more blood shed by further division. Result : further marginalisation of Muslims. The artificial divide between two countries has become reality, this is not a reversible process now. I rather be optimistic than pessimistic. There are still a number of good people living in the country. It is hoped that situation will improve.
I agree with you about geographical restrictions for separation movement of Altaf Hussain, but I also see political restrictions. This is a fact Karachi comprised of many nations not just one nation like in former East Pakistan, and political loyalities are divided. In such cirumstances thinking of separation is just like a dream or following shadows. The out come of such an futile attempt will be more blood shed of innocent people, lawless and chaos in the country. This is a loose-loose situation. If you guys are smart (as you claimed to be), act in logical and reasonable manner rather than emotionally.
I want to make one more correction. Urdu was and still is official language(at least on papers) of Pakistan since its creation. In 1971 the provincial language of Sindh was declared as Sindhi and in no way it was replacement of Urdu language. It is not understood why people made so much fuss about it. To me it was just showing of opposition power to Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, the then PM, who was supported by a large number of people or showing of hatred to poor people of the soil who first welcome Muhajirs via Khokhra par and from other places where they were not accepted.
When first time Urdu was declared as national language in former East Pakistan in 1948, Bengalis were the first ones who revolted against this injustice. When Quaid was addressing a large group of Bengalis, they threw there shoes towards him. At that time two official languages were declared.
Finally, it is not Urdu or rights of a community, it is a fact that Muhajirs never considered Pakistan as there homeland other wise they never called themselves as Muhjirs. When these smart people come to North America, USA or Western Europe, they are more proud to be called as American, Canadian, European etc. rather than Muhajirs although here they are also third rate citizens like others. Apart from English, they want to learn French, German, Spanish and so on but they have a problem in learning the culture of the soil where their third generation is enjoying the fruits of that Unfortunate Country.
Last but not the least, recently a Ph.D, (Muhajir) who was teaching in Jamshoro University as Senior Professor who did his Ph.D,( Chemistry) from China using Pakistan Government grant, is quite happy to work as Lab Technician in small private company in North America rather than teaching and serving his own people. Here he does not see any injustice!!
Regards,
Farid