Re: The DVOI - Desi Version of Islam
I've also noticed that in a lot of families in India or Pakistan, after Nikah if there is a gap in the rukhsati or valima(like some months or more) they do not let the husband and wife meet. Isnt this wrong, after all Nikah is the legal marriage and rukhsati is more of a cultural give away of the bride right?
Re: The DVOI - Desi Version of Islam
Here are some more:
Almost all of the above are very common among brailvi/shia/sufi/naqsabandi folks.
Re: The DVOI - Desi Version of Islam
Thankfully a lot of Desi Muslims are seeing the idiocy of Sufi/Barelwi type beliefs and practices. My Punjabi friends tell me they admit it is wrong and don't participate in a lot of what their families do, they also admit that we were right in celebrating Eid ul-Adha day after Hajj and said "kiya karen yaar hamaarey saaley maulvi sahab hamein ek nahein honay detey", it's hard for them when Barelwi inclined people are head of the local Mosque.
A lot of Sufi/Barelwi practices have nothing to do with Islam, they are just for sinners whose hearts are turned away from true ibaadaat and want to get MAST and 'enjoy' themselves with Qawwaali, dholki, weird ways of doing zikr to a rythm and all the rest of it.
Their Maulvi (Peer Sahab) wont tell them right from wrong because they themselves are usually auliyaa of Shaitaan and trick people into being devoted to them and parting with their money and buying them free tickets to tour the world.
Why ask mortals? What different does that make us from the polythiests? Prayers direct to Allaah are efficent. There is calm and peace in worshipping Allaah, there isn't in worshipping false gods.
Re: The DVOI - Desi Version of Islam
What is wrong with family and friends reading Quran to do khatam for a bereaved one? I hear a lot of people contradicting that also now.
Re: The DVOI - Desi Version of Islam
without getting into this salafi/ahle-hadees stuff, i dont know how many of you have actually lived with Arabs and seen the Islam they practice. The much glorified Islam in the arab world is as much rife with cultural elements practiced in the name of Islam, as ours is. Whether you then want to toss the Quran across the floor or spend all your time picking up scrap pieces of paper with the letter Alif, auction your girl to the highest bidder or spend your life savings on her dowry, boot pilgrims in the stomach (the lucky ones..) with clerical sanction in the name of it being better for them or kiss coins because they rubbed against a pole in a mazaar that you like, that is a matter of what appeals to your spiritual side, but please, dont pretend any one of them is more spiritual in practice than the other.
Re: The DVOI - Desi Version of Islam
[quote=ravage]
without getting into this salafi/ahle-hadees stuff, i dont know how many of you have actually lived with Arabs and seen the Islam they practice. The much glorified Islam in the arab world is as much rife with cultural elements practiced in the name of Islam, as ours is. Whether you then want to toss the Quran across the floor or spend all your time picking up scrap pieces of paper with the letter Alif, auction your girl to the highest bidder or spend your life savings on her dowry, boot pilgrims in the stomach (the lucky ones..) with clerical sanction in the name of it being better for them or kiss coins because they rubbed against a pole in a mazaar that you like, that is a matter of what appeals to your spiritual side, but please, dont pretend any one of them is more spiritual in practice than the other./quote]
The whirling Dervishes of Turkey find it very spiritual to whirl entire days away in the name of spirituality and call it Islam…
The faqirs of the Mazaars spend entire days just smoking Hashish and Charas on the Mazaars in the name of spirituality and call it Islam…
Peers practice black magic and arts and call it spirituality…
The idea behind Islam is not to practice what you find spiritual but what Allah :swt: has prescribed as being accepted by Him and others being rejected by Him…
The Quran talks of the people of Bani Israel who used to do things out of devotion to Allah :swt: and they thought they were doing something that was bringing them closer to Allah :swt:, but in reality it took them out of the fold of their religion and they died as Mushriks…
Bhai, when something is written in simple language for you to follow, how hard is it to follow directions? When Allah :swt: has given you Quran and Sunnah, why deviate from them?
If you find it spiritual that you do handstands while riding a horse and that it would be accepted by Allah :swt:, well, you are wrong…Allah :swt: has simply stated what He likes and doesn’t and in order for you to get into His good books, you just do what He likes…
Why confound and compound the whole spiritual thing?
Re: The DVOI - Desi Version of Islam
[quote=“Lajawab”]
I should have replaced “more spiritual” with more in line with the spirit of Islam, since presumably we dislike each other enough as to not consider Islam the shared vehicle of spirituality between us. If you begin to dispute with me the meaning of spirituality and whether by that we also mean Islam, then you’re suggesting I believe in a different spirituality from Islam. Although I guess you have voiced similar opinion before.
Nowhere in my post did I defend any of that stuff, so you’re preaching to the converted as far as whirling and dancing and smoking hashish is concerned. The point lajawab is that Islamic practices have cultural/political/regional influences in both Pakistan and the arab world, I’ve lived a large part of my life there. And to that extent I gave contrasting examples of arab and pakistani practices, the idea being that neither seems necessarily more inline with Islam than the other.
Arabs can be pretty steeped in their culture and can confuse their culture for Islam just as people from any other place do. No reason to deride our culture, because even if you get that arab nationality and they let you live amongst them as one of their own after 30 odd years (if you’re lucky..) you’ll have waited a very long time to find out you exagerrated their purity.
Re: The DVOI - Desi Version of Islam
[quote=“ravage”]
I’ve lived in Arabia most of my life, I know where you’re coming from. But the point that I wanted to make (although you are not responding to my post) is that, Islam has nothing to do with ethnicities or races. Islam in its truest form is practiced by Muslims from every part of the earth. In this thread, the practices of Desis Muslims are being discussed, since these practices have no basis in Islam. I do not know why is it that some people have come to the conclusion that Arabs are better than desis. It has nothing to do with Arabs in general.
Re: The DVOI - Desi Version of Islam
^ you only need to read the originating post to see where the comparison with Arabs comes in, I quote:
[quote]
Is it just me or are the many various forms of Islam practiced on the Indian sub-continent rather different (by which I mean much more complex) than the various forms of Islam as followed in the Arab lands?
[/quote]
So the context there is set, the comparison is with Islam practiced in Arab lands.
Then we have:
[quote]
I am also of the opinion that DVOI is often quite different and much more complex. More often than not, there isn't even strong proof or evidence if at all any.
[/quote]
These are two examples where clearly Islam in the subcontinent isnt being critisized on its own, rather being compared to a very unrealistically idealized "islam practiced in the Arab world".
I agree with your post in that theres good Muslims all over the world, and that our culture lends its own way of corruption to the religion, so most of my posts werent directed at you.
Re: The DVOI - Desi Version of Islam
Arabism should not be confused with Islam.
Re: The DVOI - Desi Version of Islam
I think everyone's culture influences their religion somewot...i don't see the problem, as long as ur not going against the religion...simply adding a custom or wotever doesn't seem bad, IMO.
Re: The DVOI - Desi Version of Islam
treading on dangerous lines here, be watchful of ahadith and Quran regarding that.
Re: The DVOI - Desi Version of Islam
Book 39, Number 4515:
Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:
Qays ibn Abbad and Ashtar went to Ali and said to him: Did the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) give you any instruction about anything for which he did not give any instruction to the people in general?
He said: No, except what is contained in this document of mine. Musaddad said: He then took out a document. Ahmad said: A document from the sheath of his sword.
It contained: The lives of all Muslims are equal; they are one hand against others; the lowliest of them can guarantee their protection. Beware, a Muslim must not be killed for an infidel, nor must one who has been given a covenant be killed while his covenant holds. If anyone introduces an innovation, he will be responsible for it. If anyone introduces an innovation or gives shelter to a man who introduces an innovation (in religion), he is cursed by Allah, by His angels, and by all the people.
Musaddad said: Ibn AbuUrubah's version has: He took out a document.
Source
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/039.sat.html#039.4515
Re: The DVOI - Desi Version of Islam
I didn't check this thread for the last few days, primarily because I was busy and not coming online all that much, and partly because I generally find it a waste of time arguing with people on something where the other party has no real knowledge and is not interested in either listening or understanding the topic, but just wants to propagate their one-sided views.
Having said that, I just now noticed two people provided direct responses to what I had posted earlier, and I think its just common courtesy that I reply to them. So here you go.
Before I talk about the so-called DVOI, let me state one thing. Grave-worshipping is as against Islam as doing three sajdas in a rakat as opposed to two. Alright? Anything that goes **against **the sharia of the Prophet (May Peace be Upon Him) or His Companions should be rejected. Nothing can be or should be added to acts of ibada'a. So I am not here to defend any non-sharaye'e activities which some of you are referring to.
Problem is, not many of you really understand what you are talking about. You see a person offering fateha at a mazaar, and you jump to the conclusion that he is grave-worshipping. What never crosses your minds is that the narrow definitions of Islam that are all the rage these days, may be inaccurate and faulty. You see people offering salat during nights in the month of Shaba'an, and you ask them for proof. You see people feeding the poor in memory of their parents and loved ones, and you start jumping up and down calling it bida'a. Your own understanding of Islam is very limited.
You see television dramas portraying a fraud peer sahab and you say "Ahaa! see?? All of them are fraud and out to make a fool of people and swindle money from them". Don't you know that the fact you see a fake is proof that original exists. Have you ever seen a fake three-rupee bank note? I am not here to tell you about why you need a religious teacher, or how you can identify a genuine person from a fake. I am just here to tell you that many things you are lambasting here, are supported in quran and sunnah. If you discuss with an educated and reasonable religious scholar, they can show you the proof from Quran and sunnah for all these things (offering fateha, having milad, reading quran for those who have passed away, praying at night during nifs-shaba'an, or offering darud to the Prophet etc). Whether you agree with their support or think that they are misinterpreting some of the sources is up to you. Problem is, very few of you have even bothered understanding or knowing the supporting proof used by the followers of so-called DVOI. That makes your knoweldge defective and your argument almost worthless. You are discussing and arguing your position without making any attempt in understanding the other position. You are just too happy that you are right, that you have closed your brains. Thats why, as I said before, its almost a waste of time, to discuss anything in this thread :)
I am not saying this with any frustration or anger. In fact, I have a smile on my face when I read many of the posts here. Its clear that the persons who wrote many of the posts have no clue what they are talking about. They are parroting their pre-conceived notions. And its not entirely your fault. You are raised to think you know best. That what you don't read in your books or your favorite website does not exist in "pure" Islam. That you may not really know all about Islam in the first place doesn't cross your minds all that often.
By the way, its not that I agree with everything that happens in the name of Islam (be it suicide bombings or serving only sooji ka halwa on a specific day of a specific month). But at least we should make an attempt to understand and learn the rationale of the followers before talking about it. Its possible that after we learn about their beliefs and support for their beliefs, we will still vehemetically disagree with them, but surely we won't be shooting our mouths off, not knowing what we are talking about.
Good luck and have a nice day. :)
Re: The DVOI - Desi Version of Islam
Are you implying that the proof that the followers of DVOI use,
a)can only be understood by desis? and/or
b)available only to desis?
If its none of the above that you are implying, then:
If the proof that they have is from the Quran and Sunnah, howcome Muslims from other parts of the world do not acknowledge it?
If people who oppose your beliefs have closed their brains, how are you any different?
How do you know that people who are opposing the DVOI, have not attempted to understand and learn the rationale of the followers before talking about it?
This is why, I asked you in my earlier post to do some research, and now I want you to enlighten everyone with the secret decoded message derived from the Quran and Sunnah that proves (offering fateha, having milad, reading quran for those who have passed away, praying at night during nifs-shaba’an, etc)that is only available on paper in India and Pakistan.
Re: The DVOI - Desi Version of Islam
Funny you mentioned about my beliefs, because I never even talked about what my personal beliefs are, really. And secondly you'll never hear me say that your beliefs, whatever they are, are wrong. Assuming you are a salafi (or similar follower of so-called "pure" Islam), I am just saying there is a possibility that your belief set is merely incomplete. Having said that, you don't have to complete it either, if you chose not to. For most muslims, just following shariat is enough. Offer salat, keep fast, perform hajj, pay zakat and do good deeds. Enough for you. Carry on with your lives and may you be successful in hereafter.
To help you here understand the point, let me use an analogy.
Lets say there is a 10th grade Physics student. He reads whats in his Physics book. He think it makes perfect sense. It is enough for him to pass his tests.
Some one comes along and says, "You know, there is a chap called Einstein who has some fantastic ideas about Quantum Physics. The discussions between Einstein and Heisenberg are really fascinating".
And this 10th grade student says, "Quantum Physics? What the heck is that? I am sure its all just bullcrap. Einstein is probably an idiot. It all sounds like a fairy tale. I didn't see any mention of that in my book".
What do you call that person? He is convinced of his views because thats all he knows. Thats all he has studied in his 10th grade Physics book. Thats all his teachers have taught him. And thats all he needs to pass 10th grade.
Just because he has no knowledge about Quantum Physics or it is not required to be studied for 10th grade, doesn't mean Quantum Physics is bullcrap. It just means, the brains of that 10th grader can not cope with that much knowledge, and he doesn't need to know it, in any case. Most people don't need to know Quantum Physics.
Another response could be, "I don't know what Quantum Physics is. I have no idea who Einstein or Heisenberg are and whether they are really knowledgable. For me, 10th grade Physics is enough. If I have the time and inclination, I'll study about quantum physics and see whether it makes sense or not. Otherwise, I'll pass"
This is the response of an enlightened mind. Not because he knows everything, but because he reserves judgement till he knows better. This understanding that what we know is only a small portion of world of knowledge comes with experience.
Alternate that when you pose the same question to a Research Student at Harvard University and he says "Oh yeah, I have read "History of Mechanics". I think Heisenberg has some interesting ideas and his theory that he has followed the requirements of Ernst Mach makes sense, but in my view, the conclusions he has reached are incorrect. Therefore, I discount his views heavily". This is a person who, most likely, knows what he is talking about. Even though he may be wrong in thinking Heisenberg's conclusions are wrong, but thats his choice. At least he has reasearched a topic from all points of view, before formulating an opinion on it.
Most of the comments I read in this thread, give no evidence that the people who are writing it have any understanding of the subject-matter. These are parroted comments which just show the person is enjoying posting it, but is least bothered about his lack of complete knowledge or has made any serious endeavor to find out. Those who limit the source of their knowledge solely on Google and islam-qa or other websites can and usually fall into the trap of overestimating their own knowledge.
And no, I am not interested in being your teacher here. I have far less patience to be one. Unfortunately you will have to journey on this road yourself. And that is only, if you have a desire to and you chose to. As I said before, for most muslims, just following shariat is enough. You don't have to take it to the next step. Good luck and Fi Amaan Allah.
Re: The DVOI - Desi Version of Islam
?
Couple of years ago i also thought the same of DVOI and AVOI,
but,
if you get to know arabs from syria, north africa like egypt, algiers and parts of Yemen, they are more or less like us. Same darghas/darbars/peers and mureeds
Re: The DVOI - Desi Version of Islam
Where did we get kalmay from in the first place?
Re: The DVOI - Desi Version of Islam
In DVOI vegeterianism is haram :nono:
Sincerely,
Captain Lota
Re: The DVOI - Desi Version of Islam
[quote=“Faisal”]
Funny you mentioned about my beliefs, because I never even talked about what my personal beliefs are, really. And secondly you’ll never hear me say that your beliefs, whatever they are, are wrong.
Merely an assumption on your part. Just because the posts and comments on this thread do not meet your imaginary requirements or a criteria that you have set in your imagination, it doesn’t imply that the people who are writing it do not have any understanding of the subject matter.
If certain things amuse you, it doesn’t imply that everyone else is also amused by the same things.