and not specifically in the context of WOT and the physical clash of the civilisations..
Suppose Islam and Muslims remain intact in the next twenty years. Suppose you live in Pakistan, and Pakistan does not currently face any military threat either side of the border. how far in occidentalism, in westernisation do you foresee Muslims, in Pakistan and outside Pakistan, going. How far would you like to see them go?
It is clear that our value system is being eroded by unislamic norms and trends. there is that thread in culture/society that triggered Thandy’s justified freak out in Pakistan Affairs. Ofcourse the most visible of that is the loosening of bounds, visibly increased awaargi. choose whatever metric you want, number of eye popping kapray to the number of lovebirds to the number of cuteSamina2000s we spiral into an uneasy modernity. and every single person I talk to from my social circle says this. there has never been a generation gap so small. im 23 and hopelessly out of touch with today’s youth.
is there ANY vision of the future where Islam, conservative Islam is not compromised? is there any vision of the future that I can be at peace with?
Looking strictly from a spiritual and belief point of view, the Ahadith are all coming true…
According to the Ahadith, the Ummah will be divided with a great rift…Those with weak Emaans, seeing the Muslims decline in grandeur and strength will opt to side with the Kuffar adopting their lifestyles, adopting their culture…And they will choose leaders from among themselves to be their religious advisors who will have no knowledge of Islam and will simply change Islam into a form that can be accepted by every Kafir so as not to give these so called Muslims a hard time…
Like the Parsis, these Muslims will drift from one culture to another, losing their faith and identity until you will not be able to tell them apart from a Hindu, a Christian or a Jew…They will roll around in ignominy until Aakhira and in this state of confusion will be raised to Allah to be judged for their deeds…And of course, the Quran states, that Muslims will be raised on the same Emaan of those they come to love…
On the other side of the divide will be those with strong Emaans…They will have trust in the help from Allah :swt:…They will not forget the lessons of history of how for 600 years the Jews suffered until He granted them victory and the same to the Prophets…
These will be highly persecuted and hated, for they will forbid evil and enjoin good…They will be called names and their titles will be synonymous with troublemakers and criminals, yet these people will not stray form their path until death overtake them…
It will be a war of beliefs and blood…Those with strong faiths and bloodlines and those without…
Already I witness it in front of me in Pakistan…
I see more Hijabans and Niqabans than I have ever seen in my life and I also more of inappropriate dressing than I have ever seen before…Those Kurtis and pants are quickly giving way to tight shirts and short skirts…
lajawab.. finally a reply that takes the topic forward. unfortunately, i have to leave. hopefully you wont be ambushed by anti and madho. will reply later.
in the meanwhile, could you briefly mention which prophecies you speak of? and their references? Thanks!
Re: the conservative muslim's view of the near future
Ravage, I totally agree and share your feelings. After looking at the current Pakistani urban habits, I feel as if I am a person from the past -- way way from the past.
However, you need not worry. These things are temporary and InshaAllah will go away. No matter what the state-of-affairs is, we have to keep raising the cry for truth. Even if we are the only Muslims left on Earth... Just keep doing your job by making noise around you.
Phoonkon sei yei charaagh bhujaya na jaayey ga! InShaAllah.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
and not specifically in the context of WOT and the physical clash of the civilisations..
Suppose Islam and Muslims remain intact in the next twenty years. Suppose you live in Pakistan, and Pakistan does not currently face any military threat either side of the border. how far in occidentalism, in westernisation do you foresee Muslims, in Pakistan and outside Pakistan, going. How far would you like to see them go?
It is clear that our value system is being eroded by unislamic norms and trends. there is that thread in culture/society that triggered Thandy's justified freak out in Pakistan Affairs. Ofcourse the most visible of that is the loosening of bounds, visibly increased awaargi. choose whatever metric you want, number of eye popping kapray to the number of lovebirds to the number of cuteSamina2000s we spiral into an uneasy modernity. and every single person I talk to from my social circle says this. there has never been a generation gap so small. im 23 and hopelessly out of touch with today's youth.
is there ANY vision of the future where Islam, conservative Islam is not compromised? is there any vision of the future that I can be at peace with?
[/QUOTE]
It was so strange to see this time that Eid programs (on PrimeTV, ARY and Geo) were fully of these half naked women – it was like making fun of all that we did in Ramzan.
true
when i contemplate on todays and tomorrow’s times it is scary, but atleast we have hope of meeting the apostle of allah Essa :as: …
Volume 9, Book 88, Number 206:
Narrated Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman:
The people used to ask Allah's Apostle about the good but I used to ask him about the evil lest I should be overtaken by them. So I said, "O Allah's Apostle! We were living in ignorance and in an (extremely) worst atmosphere, then Allah brought to us this good (i.e., Islam); will there be any evil after this good?" He said, "Yes." I said, 'Will there be any good after that evil?" He replied, "Yes, but it will be tainted (not pure.)'' I asked, "What will be its taint?" He replied, "(There will be) some people who will guide others not according to my tradition? You will approve of some of their deeds and disapprove of some others." I asked, "Will there be any evil after that good?" He replied, "Yes, (there will be) some people calling at the gates of the (Hell) Fire, and whoever will respond to their call, will be thrown by them into the (Hell) Fire." I said, "O Allah s Apostle! Will you describe them to us?" He said, "They will be from our own people and will speak our language." I said, "What do you order me to do if such a state should take place in my life?" He said, "Stick to the group of Muslims and their Imam (ruler)." I said, "If there is neither a group of Muslims nor an Imam (ruler)?" He said, "Then turn away from all those sects even if you were to bite (eat) the roots of a tree till death overtakes you while you are in that state."
Volume 9, Book 88, Number 229:
Narrated Abi Waih:
Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman said, 'The hypocrites of today are worse than those of the lifetime of the Prophet, because in those days they used to do evil deeds secretly but today they do such deeds openly.'
great reply thandy. liked the references since they're from reputable books.
so ramy, thandy and lajo. allow me to present the argument that the end, though near, is not at our heads. firstly, our grandfather's generation had great problems when it came to reconciling Muslim values to the world around them. western values were seen as being imposed on them, the one truly powerful Muslim voice had been subdued and colonialism had ensured that virtually no land, atleast as far as the subcontinent goes, had Muslim rulers. there used to be voices then too, that said the end is here. heck i think akbar ila abadi used to write about this stuff. there is still no dajjal in sight and even he will need a lifetime to secure his own power.
so i think 20-40 years is a given. realistically we might go centuries.. but I dont really want to address that right now.
during the next 20-40 years you will live out the remainder of your lives. what I want to know is that apart from end of times scenarios, how do you see society changing? Surely Islam accepts change otherwise our generation's muslims wouldnt be culturally different from our grandfathers, even the religious ones. we speak, behave, dress differently. how much change do you see happening as a natural process? how much acceptance should we have for new values and culture, given that our own are different from our grandfathers?
yeah.. same feeling here. but part of it could be because we're too attached to (cultural) norms being lost that werent necessary to be conformed to in order to conform to Islam. you probably are very different from your grandfather, and its possible that even while conforming to Islam your behaviour might seem foreign enough for your grandparent as to be troubling.
another article related to mixing of religen and politics
When you take the political Islam, you see only killing, assassination, poisoning, intrigue, conspiracy and civil war; but Islam as a message is very human, sensible and just
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
yeah.. same feeling here. but part of it could be because we're too attached to (cultural) norms being lost that werent necessary to be conformed to in order to conform to Islam. you probably are very different from your grandfather, and its possible that even while conforming to Islam your behaviour might seem foreign enough for your grandparent as to be troubling.
[/QUOTE]
pardon my reply if it sounds harsh, but our grandfathers generation was one of the most pathetic and lost generations of all time. they concentrated on working for the world only and only islam that they knew was in sense of "culture" so islamic laws were mixed with culture. i m not saynig all were like that but a big majority. any how they abandoned jihad , fought on the side of brits and germans, depending on our colonial master and no real sense of islamic unity. our fathers generation was born in their "free" countries so they decided to follow the isms of the time, some liked arab nationalism, some communism, socialism, bathism or what not. it was only our elder brothers generation that rekindled the torch of jihad and bought honor to his ummah. our elder brothers started the jihad in afghanistan, bosnia, kosovo, and now we are seeing the results. most people are coming to islam now. i saw a report in bbc that sri lankan muslims are warning that govt and tamil shuld not ignore them or else they will be forced to pick up arms. mashallah, religion is coming every where. youngsters are either very very immoral or they are joining the ranks of pious muslism, there is no middle ground that our fathers lived in, the "happy go luck" islam that if you prayed it was ok but if u missed it was ok too. i think inshallah the great divide that is being caused in muslims in terms of mod muslims v. the pious muslims will lead to the implementation of islamic law in our countries because the mod muslims will lose this battle inshallah....just the way i see it.
one more hadith....troubling times are coming may allah save us from them...
The Authority Of An-Nawwas b. Sam'an
Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) made a mention of the Dajjal one day in the morning. He sometimes described him to be insignificant and sometimes described (his turmoil) as very significant and we felt as if he were in the cluster of the date-palm trees. When we went to him (to the Holy Prophet) in the evening and he read (the signs of fear) in our faces, he said: What is the matter with you? We said: Allah's Messenger, you made a mention of the Dajjal in the morning (sometimes describing him) to be insignificant and sometimes very important, until we began to think as if he were present in some (near) part of the cluster of the date-palm trees. Thereupon he said: I harbour fear in regard to you in so many other things besides the Dajjal. If he comes forth while I am among on, I shall contend with him on your behalf, but if he comes forth while I am not amongst you, a man must contend on his own behalf and Allah would take care of every Muslim on my behalf (and safeguard him against his evil). He (Dajjal) would be a young man with twisted, contracted hair, and a blind eye. I compare him to 'Abd-ul-'Uzza b. Qatan. He who amongst you would survive to see him should recite over him the opening verses of Sura Kahf (xviii.). He would appear on the way between Syria and Iraq and would spread mischief right and left. O servant of Allah! adhere (to the path of Truth). We said: Allah's Messenger, how long would he stay on the earth? He said: For forty days, one day like a year and one day like a month and one day like a week and the rest of the days would be like your days. We said: Allah's Messenger, would one day's prayer suffice for the prayers of day equal to one year? Thereupon he said: No, but you must make an estimate of time (and then observe prayer). We said: Allah's Messenger, how quickly would he walk upon the earth? Thereupon he said: Like cloud driven by the wind. He would come to the people and invite them (to a wrong religion) and they would affirm their faith in him and respond to him. He would then give command to the sky and there would be rainfall upon the earth and it would grow crops. Then in the evening, their posturing animals would come to them with their humps very high and their udders full of milk and their flanks stretched. He would then come to another people and invite them. But they would reject him and he would go away from them and there would be drought for them and nothing would be left with them in the form of wealth. He would then walk through the waste, land and say to it: Bring forth your treasures, and the treasures would come out and collect (themselves) before him like the swarm of bees. He would then call a person brimming with youth and strike him with the sword and cut him into two pieces and (make these pieces lie at a distance which is generally) between the archer and his target. He would then call (that young man) and he will come forward laughing with his face gleaming (with happiness) and it would at this very time that Allah would send Christ, son of Mary, and he will descend at the white minaret in the eastern side of Damascus wearing two garments lightly dyed with saffron and placing his hands on the wings of two Angels. When he would lower his head, there would fall beads of perspiration from his head, and when he would raise it up, beads like pearls would scatter from it. Every non-believer who would smell the odour of his self would die and his breath would reach as far as he would be able to see. He would then search for him (Dajjal) until he would catch hold of him at the gate of Ludd and would kill him. Then a people whom Allah had protected would come to Jesus, son of Mary, and he would wipe their faces and would inform them of their ranks in Paradise and it would be under such conditions that Allah would reveal to Jesus these words: I have brought forth from amongst My servants such people against whom none would be able to fight; you take these people safely to Tur, and then Allah would send Gog and Magog and they would swarm down from every slope. The first of them would pass the lake of Tibering and drink out of it. And when the last of them would pass, he would say: There was once water there. Jesus and his companions would then be besieged here (at Tur, and they would be so much hard pressed) that the head of the ox would be dearer to them than one hundred dinirs and Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would supplicate Allah, Who would send to them insects (which would attack their necks) and in the morning they would perish like one single person. Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would then come down to the earth and they would not find in the earth as much space as a single span which is not filled with their putrefaction and stench. Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would then again beseech Allah, Who would send birds whose necks would be like those of camels and they would carry them and throw them where God would will. Then Allah would send rain which no house of clay or (the tent of) camels' hairs would keep out and it would wash away the earth until it could appear to be a mirror. Then the earth would be told to bring forth its fruit and restore its blessing and, as a result thereof, there would grow (such a big) pomegranate that a group of persons would be able to eat that, and seek shelter under its skin and milch cow would give so much milk that a whole party would be able to drink it. And the milch camel would give such (a large quantity of) milk that the whole tribe would be able to drink out of that and the milch sheep would give so much milk that the whole family would be able to drink out of that and at that time Allah would send a pleasant wind which would soothe (people) even under their armpits, and would take the life of every Muslim and only the wicked would survive who would commit adultery like asses and the Last Hour would come to them.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by humhaipakistani: *
i don't know the answers but i have a couple of questions myself. i'll start off with this one:
1 - since when has Islam needed 'muslims' to act as its sentinels?
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It reminds me of the battle of Bader and 312 people who went out to fight for the Sake of Allah and Islam, I don’t believe that if those "muslims" stayed in madinah Islam would have survived. Dear it’s Muslims who are responsible of Islam and not any body else, Allah has promised to help the just.
Excellent post ravage, I wish a few unrelated posts are removed so we can have this thing discussed in a civilized manner.
I am afraid that Pakistan is on its way to become another Algeria.
I am afraid that Pakistan is on its way to become another Algeria.
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what you have said is scary. what the algerian civil war produced was horrible. there we saw secular govt. fighting khawariji (GIA) and the true mujahideen (GSPC), and the khawariji (GIA) really did commit terrorism on the name of islam. they deserved to be fought and are mostly gone but in their fight with the equally brutal govt. forces, tens of thousands of innocent people were killed. i hope we dont see the likes of GIA but i suspect we will have our share of khawarijis and i fear the moment when the public sees the heavily armed khawariji, they will forget the brutal years of karachi terrorism years. may allah protect us. but i do like GSPC who are true to their vow of killing only govt officials and security men and not civillians. so any time you hear of civillian deaths in algeria know that its GIA no matter how much the media claims that it is GSPC. wallah o alam.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by humhaipakistani: *
i don't know the answers but i have a couple of questions myself. i'll start off with this one:
1 - since when has Islam needed 'muslims' to act as its sentinels?
[/QUOTE]
isnt religion meaningless without its followers? sure it might survive in a few without muslims acting as sentinels but Im worried that I/those close to me might not be amongst those few..
thandymazaq: so you prefer todays times, of violence and pain for Muslims in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan to those of our fathers? It was our grandfather’s age that carved out a Muslim nation, not through violence, but through adopting the peaceful ways you seem to reject. Sure in a broader perspective, the Ottoman empire etc got broken up, but you realise that that age wasnt as connected as this one. this global village where one death in Palestine echoes around the Muslim world is only a phenomenon of the nineties. There was no shared perception.
But your assessment of things only leads me to think that we live in a time that is not unique. that this problem is not new.
my question to you folks isnt related to jihad etc, its related to everyday living. there were religious people in your grandfathers time. you are a religious person. clearly you would be very different from them. pant shirt wearing, english speaking, in my case movie watching music listening, talking to khwatin on bulletin boards, im okay with co-ed schools, okay with women working etc, and yet I dont consider myself a very liberal Muslim. but Im not sure how a religious person from that time would assess it.
some norms change over time and dont necessarily represent deviation from Islam, but a natural progression of thought and culture. how much of all that we find foreign today, and tomorrow should we be willing to accept in that light?
This thing has been worrying me for a while now too. Im increasingly disillusioned by our values and beliefs nowadays, or atleast those that we seem to be adopting on a daily basis, inspired by the culture in the west and that east of our borders.
It seems every day the devide becomes deeper and deeper. GS is an interesting excercise in observing this phenomenon in action. Already we see wide spread hatred against the religious and conservative. And on the other side of the spectrum we see extremist views and constant name calling.
The so called religous are often far away from religion as they call each other kafirs and condemn each others iman, judging others as if they have any right to judge. The liberal leave no insults unsaid in their constant assaults on the conservative.
Dont you folks see what you are doing to our nation ? our ummah ? Islam is not extremism in ANYWAY, but its not a copycat of western civilization either. We had an identity, we had a dream, now we just follow the identities and dreams of those we think are more fortunate or better than us, be it the so called liberated women of the west of the shia sunni slaughtering bafoons.
Here on GS we see so much racism, be it against arabs, mullahs, the so called 'women in potato sacks' or the liberal. What i see here on GS is definetly not what islam teaches.
Islam doesnt teach us to be proud and flaunt our iman, yet i see a lot of so called religious posters here doing just that, and condeming the more liberal amongstg us. At the same time islam does NOT teach us to slam those who are perhaps a bit extremist in their views. A middle ground has to be reached.
A few members it seems have taken it upon themselves to bring up new topics on a daily basis just to incite more hatred and cause more devision amongst the posters. I suggest the more intelligent amongst you ignore those posts, and donot reply becayse all that serves to do is cause even more hatred and give them exactly the fodder they need to keep on doing their crap
